X-Ray Vision AI

[On_Sabbatical 11]

yeah,of course you can shoot it but not instantly after you see it which the case with AI (talking about a moving target of course using iron sight)

[-Coulum- 35]

What ranges are we talking about here Qazdar?

I'm a member of a clan.

there are lots of missions on the servers: some you may even solo if you know them, some won't allow you to take one foul step no matter how many players you bring.

Played missions were a team of 8 was all dead 7 minutes in the game, played others were 5 guys could cherry-pick and laugh at AIs that didn't even move or coordinate to respond to fire.

Your remark doesn't make sense.

The AIs are in the hands of mission makers, problems arise when them mission makers are good!

Yes the mission maker has alot of control in how hard a mission is. But Lets take an absolutely "fair mission". A squad of humans against a squad of ai. Who is going to win and why. It certainly isn't going to be the ai because "they have super good spotting and unfair precision shooting". I find PVP much less forgiving than these "aim-bot ai" people claim to be facing. And shouldn't the basic ai try to be just as good as a decent PVP'er?

[anthropoid 1]

You know, this probably deserves its own thread. But I figure this one is going well, so why not express it here.

I am really tired of the incredibly unrealistic attempt in the game engine to simulate the blinding effects of looking toward the sun during low angle sun times of day (morning and dusk).

I can appreciate the attempt to make sun blinding a component of the game; but it just does not work right. Instead of causing some blinding when the player looks into the sun, we instead get: look in the general direction of the sun = everythign goes black except for the horizon which glows like a lamp.

[metalcraze 290]

AI can't shoot immediately when it sees the target. It takes quite a bit of time to aim at the enemy for AI, just like for the player. There's aimingSpeed parameter for a reason.

If you are getting one-shot it's not a problem with AI, it's the problem with you. If you stay in one place all the time what stops AI from accurately aiming at you and do a good one-shot hit? I can do that, I killed players like that too, why shouldn't AI do it?

In more or less serious clans they have training where one of the basics is to never stay put. Like use a car for cover, shoot from one side, quickly move to the other side, fire from there, relocate again. Do you think they are doing it to pretend they are some ubercool specops?

As for moving targets - AI has even bigger problems with them. You can only get shot in that case only when you get like a huge barrage of many guns firing at you.

But Lets take an absolutely "fair mission". A squad of humans against a squad of ai. Who is going to win and why.

F... fair mission? Man I have 8 people here I want to feel like rambo I put 100 AIs against me *gets shot after killing like 70 AIs* oh noez aimbots.

Played missions were a team of 8 was all dead 7 minutes in the game

7 minutes? By logic of some people here it should be 1 second. I mean AIs are aimbots who can snipe you at 500m with AK and see through trees and hills and all

Edited June 28, 2012 by metalcraze

[anthropoid 1]

AI can't shoot immediately when it sees the target. It takes quite a bit of time to aim at the enemy for AI, just like for the player. There's aimingSpeed parameter for a reason.

If you are getting one-shot it's not a problem with AI, it's the problem with you. If you stay in one place all the time what stops AI from accurately aiming at you and do a good one-shot hit? I can do that, I killed players like that too, why shouldn't AI do it?

In more or less serious clans they have training where one of the basics is to never stay put. Like use a car for cover, shoot from one side, quickly move to the other side, fire from there, relocate again. Do you think they are doing it to pretend they are some ubercool specops? . . .

Not to be confrontational but, with reference particularly to the bold/ital part . . . and that is supposed to be 'realistic?'

I have watched plenty of footage of soldiers in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan who were engaged in combat.

With the exception of soldiers charging a position (e.g., think off the boats at Normandy) I have NEVER seen soldiers behaving like that -> constantly moving, running around like chickens with their heads cut off, move-stop->move-stop->move-stop . . .

In sum, soft cover does not work with the AI and neither does suppressive fire does not work with the AI.

The end result being that firefights with the AI unmodded, just doesn't seem that realistic.

The fact that some players can thrive in that dynamic, by darting around ever couple seconds to thwart some of the AI abilities does not make it more 'realistic,' nor fun.

[-Coulum- 35]

I have watched plenty of footage of soldiers in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan who were engaged in combat.

With the exception of soldiers charging a position (e.g., think off the boats at Normandy) I have NEVER seen soldiers behaving like that -> constantly moving, running around like chickens with their heads cut off, move-stop->move-stop->move-stop . . .

In sum, soft cover does not work with the AI and neither does suppressive fire does not work with the AI.

The end result being that firefights with the AI unmodded, just doesn't seem that realistic.

The fact that some players can thrive in that dynamic, by darting around ever couple seconds to thwart some of the AI abilities does not make it more 'realistic,' nor fun.

You may have misunderstood metalcraze there antrhopod. no, in reality you don't sprint all other the battlefield. butyes you always want to switch up your firing position. That way the enemy never sees you long enough to shoot you. Ie. if you're in a trench and pop up and start shooting. suddenly a bullet whacks down right in front of you. obviously you have been seen. You duck down under the trench. Now is it really logical to pop up in the exact same place where you were just firing from? No because someone is most likely watching that area, and is just waiting for you to pop up so they can nail you. So you moove a few metres down, and pop up there. By the time the enemy notices you and get a bead you should be down again and relocating. Same goes for out the open. The saying is "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" where by the time you say each one of those things, you should have done them.

The same rule applies to the ai. If you are unpredictable the ai will have less chance nailing you. That being said, the ai are very forgiving and will allow you to make mistakes, like constantly firing from the same position, that you would get raped for in PVP.

[Bouben 3]

I believe the problem is knowsAbout value. Once enemy has a full knowsAbout value of you then you are doomed no matter what you do. In practice, you can not confuse it. You would have to run 2000 meters from it behind a hill and then completely change direction and hide and wait for 10 minutes and then they will start to make mistakes in guessing your position but only after their knowsAbout decrease after a timer condition. But as we all know, in practice Arma combat takes few minutes so there is no chance to confuse AI once the knowsAbout is set.

Unlike human player, AI's concentration cannot be distracted by actions around it when firefight is huge in forest for example. They are not confused by other objects as far as I know. They cannot be confused by a tree that looks like a human silhouette from a distance or a bush that look like a machine gun position.

They don't forget, always know their position perfectly and direction they are watching. They perfectly remember who is their target even if they have never seen it and are engaging only on leader's command.

I realize it is really difficult to program AI but lets be fair and say, AI often cheat. It would not be possible without it anyway - it is a program not a human being and for human-like AI we have a long way to go yet.

I dream of a detailed wiki explanation how AI in Arma2 works by BIS. That would clarify a lot of confusion on this forum.

EDIT:

Guys, you can always use TroopMon2 to watch AI behaviour from their first person view and see if it is possible for a player.

EDIT2:

I have watched AI firefight in a forest using TroopMon2 and watched from first person how AI unmistakeably aim and shoot through trees blocking their whole LOS without any visual contact at all. I could not see any of targets that AI have killed in split of a second. It is simply impossible for a human player. Just use TroopMon and check it for yourself.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Bouben

[On_Sabbatical 11]

seriously,fighting against AI is not even providing 20% of a PvP feeling ... for many reasons,with some work it could be brought to 80% (check UPSMON AI)

I think that the first thing that should be delt with is AI's super detection skills ...

Take for example,a scene where AI is looking at a hill full of trees and bushes and a human hiding somewhere in it ... AI shouldn't be able to detect that human easily,unless there is some muzzle flash or after being shoot many times.

@metalcraze

I,personally,have no problems with AI at any level of skill ... i am just reporting what people on MP servers are whining about :D or what my AIs do.

[-Coulum- 35]

Take for example,a scene where AI is looking at a hill full of trees and bushes and a human hiding somewhere in it ... AI shouldn't be able to detect that human easily,unless there is some muzzle flash or after being shoot many times.

Yes I agree with you there. In densely populated terrain ai should have more trouble spotting. It should not be that they can't spot you however, just it should take longer. But I also think that on open ground, ai spotting must be increased about 3 fold, because right now it is pathetic.

I believe the problem is knowsAbout value. Once enemy has a full knowsAbout value of you then you are doomed no matter what you do. In practice, you can not confuse it. You would have to run 2000 meters from it behind a hill and then completely change direction and hide and wait for 10 minutes and then they will start to make mistakes in guessing your position but only after their knowsAbout decrease after a timer condition. But as we all know, in practice Arma combat takes few minutes so there is no chance to confuse AI once the knowsAbout is set.

Yes it is hard to loose the ai but it can be done. It takes a while though. This is what it says on the wiki if you haven't seen it already.

The KnowsAbout value drops immediately back to zero, if the distance between both units is larger than the local viewDistance value.

After 110 seconds without (visible?) contact, the KnowsAbout value drops to zero again. While it seemed to take longer the higher the KnowsAbout value is (at least for a value of 4 it took almost six minutes at one point), I was unable to reproduce/confirm that. It is 110 seconds no matter how high the KnowsAbout value it seems.

So if you stay out of the ai's view for a fair amount of time they will forget about you totally. The problem is, as you say, the ai don't get distracted by the firefight going on. But this isn't really cheating as a human could do the same but it isn't exactly human like. And as is, the ai aren't exactly great at attacking units they can see - I've seen them casually shoot at a unit in clear sight maybe 200 metres away, look around, come back to the unit they were shooting at, shoot a couple more times, look around again etc. Whereas a humans would pump lead in that sucker's direction until he was dead. This is especially noticeable when viewing through troopmon or using "this switchcamera "gunner"" in the given ai's init.

and neither does suppressive fire does not work with the AI.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?136304-TPWC-AI-suppression-system

Edited June 28, 2012 by -Coulum-

[maturin 12]

In sum, soft cover does not work with the AI

This is just wrong. Sometimes I feel safer behind bushes than I do behind boulders, because the AI is more reluctant to shoot through concealment. By ALOT. You just have to use it right.

and neither does suppressive fire does not work with the AI.

It works quite well, it's just too hard to do, because you need to hit the ground within 2m of their feet.

I believe the problem is knowsAbout value. Once enemy has a full knowsAbout value of you then you are doomed no matter what you do. In practice, you can not confuse it. You would have to run 2000 meters from it behind a hill and then completely change direction and hide and wait for 10 minutes and then they will start to make mistakes in guessing your position but only after their knowsAbout decrease after a timer condition. But as we all know, in practice Arma combat takes few minutes so there is no chance to confuse AI once the knowsAbout is set.

This is crap, honestly. KnowsAbout does absolutely NOTHING if you leave the enemy's line of sight, behind hard cover. Just put an enemy 10m in front of a large house. You can shoot at him, and then walk from corner to corner. Every time you leave his FOV, you will be able to walk right up and kiss him. If you are in his FOV, I agree, he will spot you almost instantly at any distance.

I realize it is really difficult to program AI but lets be fair and say, AI often cheat. It would not be possible without it anyway - it is a program not a human being and for human-like AI we have a long way to go yet.

They do not "often" cheat. Cheating is a glitch and rare. What they have is unfair balance, because they are a program.

And for the hundredth time! Just because the AI shoots through a tree's leaves doesn't mean they see through it. Someone else sees AROUND the obstacle and is directing their fire. Either that or the viewblock geometry is slightly inaccurate for that part of the that one tree. A model issue. I don't mean to be so abrasive, but I am fucking sick of newbs who see these things in uncontrolled situations, full of variable beyond their control or comprehension, and run to the forums because they assume that EVERYTHING the slightest bit surprising is a case of cheating AI. I shoot through trees every day. What a fucking cheat I am.

Edited June 28, 2012 by maturin

[Bouben 3]

Someone else sees AROUND the obstacle and is directing their fire.

That would be absolutely allright if it was implemented realistically without a pinpoint precision. However, it is not implemented realistically and it can be seen clearly in any forest firefight through troopmon. Moreover, I have a scenario when it was 1 vs 1 so there was no way anyone could direct their fire.

"In those trees 12 o clock!" does not mean "In those trees x,y,z, +/- 1-2 mm".

This is crap, honestly. KnowsAbout does absolutely NOTHING if you leave the enemy's line of sight, behind hard cover. Just put an enemy 10m in front of a large house. You can shoot at him, and then walk from corner to corner. Every time you leave his FOV, you will be able to walk right up and kiss him. If you are in his FOV, I agree, he will spot you almost instantly at any distance.

Another problem then. Not every object seem to affect unit's LOS (forests then must be bugged somehow, but Dwarden said the trees are allright) and grass clutter seems to do absolutely nothing in this case when knowsAbout is up. Moreover, when unit knowsAbout you you can make any stealth movement you want and it will have no effect at all in practice. Again, the pinpoint precision ruins everything. Hard cover functions correctly as observed in troopmoon, that is right but the speed of AI being able to pinpoint you is bad.

//

"If you are in his FOV, I agree, he will spot you almost instantly at any distance." - So what can be done with this issue?

They do not "often" cheat. Cheating is a glitch and rare. What they have is unfair balance, because they are a program.

I agree with this correction.

And if you call a guy playing since OFP demo and observing AI since then a newbie, then I should probably discuss this issue with somebody more open-minded, Maturin. I admit I am not a skilled programmer, but my observations and experience in practice/in game are quite detailed. Lets not argue here and try to figure out what is wrong then. That would be great for everybody I think.

[-Coulum- 35]

That would be absolutely allright if it was implemented realistically without a pinpoint precision. However, it is not implemented realistically and it can be seen clearly in any forest firefight through troopmon. Moreover, I have a scenario when it was 1 vs 1 so there was no way anyone could direct their fire.

"In those trees 12 o clock!" does not mean "In those trees x,y,z, +/- 1-2 mm".

I honestly don't know how the ai "direct fire" but I agree, it should not be precise. In your 1 on one, is it possible that the ai saw the enemy before he went out of view and then fired at where he thought the guy would be? Did the ai actually get a kill from shooting through the foilage?

And I think that the problem with ai shooting through trees is more a model problem than ai.

Moreover, when unit knowsAbout you you can make any stealth movement you want and it will have no effect at all in practice. Again, the pinpoint precision ruins everything. Hard cover functions correctly as observed in troopmoon, that is right but the speed of AI being able to pinpoint you is bad.

Yes i agree. it is very hard to use stealth to loose an ai stare. Even when they haven't seen you yet, their spotting is more based on your distance to them and view blocking items than partial concealment and camoflauge - which is used extensively in reality. The question is what can be done to fix this without making the ai totally blind.

[maturin 12]

That would be absolutely allright if it was implemented realistically without a pinpoint precision.

The pinpoint precision is very rare because the AI are highly reluctant to fire at things they don't have line of sight to. But I agree in general.

Moreover, I have a scenario when it was 1 vs 1 so there was no way anyone could direct their fire.

A viewblock inaccuracy in the foliage, then.

(forests then must be bugged somehow, but Dwarden said the trees are allright)

Forests aren't bugged. The leaf canopies in Chernarus are too complex to get the viewblock to match what the player sees at every range of LoD (it's the fault of the sparse autumn foliage, as opposed to Takistan, which works fine). Chernarus treet trunks are bugged to allow the AI to see through them, and Dwarden is aware of it.

and grass clutter seems to do absolutely nothing in this case when knowsAbout is up.

This isn't true with most kinds of grass. It blocks AI vision now, often too well. And if you go prone in grass, I will shoot the spot where you disappeared from. This is another case of complaining that the AI are too good when they are inferior to humans.

Moreover, when unit knowsAbout you you can make any stealth movement you want and it will have no effect at all in practice. Again, the pinpoint precision ruins everything. Hard cover functions correctly as observed in troopmoon, that is right but the speed of AI being able to pinpoint you is bad.

Yes, the line-of-sight-based spotting of aware AI needs balancing.

"If you are in his FOV, I agree, he will spot you almost instantly at any distance." - So what can be done with this issue?

ArmA 3, I pray.

And if you call a guy playing since OFP demo and observing AI since then a newbie, then I should probably discuss this issue with somebody more open-minded, Maturin. I admit I am not a skilled programmer, but my observations and experience in practice/in game are quite detailed. Lets not argue here and try to figure out what is wrong then. That would be great for everybody I think.

Sorry, it was a more general gripe. You didn't describe a situation specifically that suggested a conclusion derived from a controlled test, and I have learned to assume sloppiness and ignorance until proven otherwise. I have seen the same myths and hyperboles parroted many times for every instance of actual fact, on these forums.

I'm curious under what circumstances you got AI to fire through tree foliage. Got a mission?

[Bouben 3]

I would not say only tree trunks are bugged. I think that needles on pine trees does not block LOS properly. Don't have a bulletproof mission for you now, but I have observed that many times and few minutes ago too. In situations when player would be unable to detect anybody an AI unit is shooting with a precision through leaves and needles (1 vs 1 scenario).

Moreover, I have tried to set a single AI's knowsAbout about player by the "reveal" command and watch it react. It was running through the forest like crazy and still new exactly that I am on that position because I did not move. I think AI should not be able to know you are still there when it's LOS is supposed to be blocked by trees after few minutes of running around. It should get confused after a while whether you change position or not. It should still have approximate position of yours but not that you are still 100% there because you did not move.

I will do more clear testing and hopefully come with results.

[f2k sel 164]

One obvious way to see the AI x-ray vision is to place an empty enemy tank in front of an AI controlled tank, nothing happens.

Remove the fuel from the enemy tank and move an AI soldier in using unit moveindriver, the result is the AI controlled tank opens fire even though visually and audibly nothing has changed.

I'd really like the reveal to accept negative numbers so we can force them to forget.

Vote it up guys or nothing will change.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27801

Edited June 28, 2012 by F2k Sel

[Bouben 3]

Here is a situation when player was spotted and fired at. The yellow circle shows when player is located. The player is prone and staying still, no movement at all. Yet the AI managed to fire several bullets right in to the player. AI has spotted the player while moving in walk speed towards him. AI had no knowsAbout set up till the player was spotted.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8713579/arma2oa%202012-06-28%2020-26-43-70b.jpg (522 kB)

I for one can't see anything in that picture that would gave me any idea that a unit is hidden there.

[maturin 12]

As I said, the tree trunks on Chernarus have a mysterious glitch that disables their viewblock, somehow.

If the AI saw through the young pine tree, it is an aberration, as I hide behind those all the time, and have complete confidence doing it.

I think that needles on pine trees does not block LOS properly. Don't have a bulletproof mission for you now, but I have observed that many times and few minutes ago too. In situations when player would be unable to detect anybody an AI unit is shooting with a precision through leaves and needles (1 vs 1 scenario).

I have never been shot through pine needles that are close to the ground. They are the poster child for accurate viewblock. But you can't expect to invisible just because you can't see the enemy. Parts of you might be sticking out, and there are gaps. I need a bulletproof mission before I believe even a word of that one.

One obvious way to see the AI x-ray vision is to place an empty enemy tank in front of an AI controlled tank, nothing happens.

That's... not X-ray vision. It's a specific glitch relating only to vehicles, and one that's actually desirable from a gameplay standpoint that is extremely unlikely to harm the player. Do you really want the AI to spazz out whenever they see a vehicle depot? A human has the logic to discern empty vehicles from threats in many situations, but not AI ever can.

Vote it up guys or nothing will change.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27801

How is this going to improve gameplay? It seems to just be something missionmakers and scripters are asking for.

Edited June 29, 2012 by maturin

[Bouben 3]

But you can't expect to invisible just because you can't see the enemy. Parts of you might be sticking out, and there are gaps.

Then the pinpoint precision and absence of influence of visually chaotic environment on AI spotting is the key problem here I guess.

[maturin 12]

Then the pinpoint precision and absence of influence of visually chaotic environment on AI spotting is the key problem here I guess.

They don't have pinpoint precision. They have different precision.

I groan in exasperation when I hear those words because the AI can ONLY recognize heads and torsos as pieces of enemy soldier. You can have an entire meter of your legs, or your gun and arms, sticking out of that tree, and the AI will never see you. Do I need to point out how dead you would be, were a human on the other side of that tree?

When it comes to ground-level foliage of young pine trees and bushes, the viewblock is usually more effective than the actual model. As with EVERY situation the AI has to deal with, the player has advantages that go beyond their intelligence.

Complaining about X-ray vision AI is a distortion, and a potentially destructive one, if BIS goes and makes them completely blind without also allowing them to spot targets over 200m (when out of combat) or recognize a leg as belonging to a body. There is always a tradeoff, and the best way to summarize ArmA's AI is 'inconsistent.' They have above-human abilities in a very few situations and below-human abilities in many more. They are still so much worse than us, easily defeated in vast numbers, that it worries me that the complaints are so overwhelmingly about their 'cheating' and unfairness.

[Bouben 3]

Allright man, please stay cool I will write it differently.

In short, I as a human being can't see any sign there is a body laying down there on that screenshot. And could not see any sign too when I was watching AI from its first person view all the way till the player was spotted (I was checking the situation repeatedly and even that I knew the player is there I could not see a shit). There was no way I could see anyone laying there from the AI's first person view while it was moving (no way) and even while it was not moving too. It is simply an impossible condition for a human player to match the AI's spotting capability in that situation. So to answer your question:

Do I need to point out how dead you would be, were a human on the other side of that tree?

I would not be dead at all, because a human would not see anything is laying in there untill he removed those trees and grass clutter. And that is the whole point of this discussion.

Now your argument that the AI is in most cases inferior to human intelligence and therefore it is not relevant to complain about those issues - I strongly disagree.

The game is based on some kind of natural logic. You expect something happening in a believable manner. If AI is doing things you can't successfully and somehow naturally react to (by tactical decisions) without completely destroying believability of the situation then the AI is behaving wrong and needs tweaking. In my opinion the forest combat in A2 is wrong and need to be tweaked. And I am definitely not a rookie player in OFP and Arma.

Because I know now you have a good knowledge about the AI and because I don't want to say anything that would bias true functionality of the AI I want to give you a question.

Do you believe there is something wrong with the AI in forest combat that needs to be tweaked apart from the tree trunks bug? If yes, please, what would it be?

EDIT:

And I want to ask you what do you think about this issue? I am citing CarlGustaffa here:

"I have to agree with smoke usage. It's definately not good enough. The only application is to screen your movements when you haven't been made. Once you've been made, they will follow you with high accuracy when you should be covered by smoke. It's not firing blindly into the smoke, it's pinpoint accuracy.

Our AI skill and accuracy are set so low I'm almost ashamed to admit it. But it was done in order to try out some maneuvering tactics instead of distant range shooting. Due to the way AI handles grass, by firing accurately at us, instead of "suppressing the grass, area shooting", we want to employ smoke to screen a flanking maneuver. My idea was that instead of bitching about the grass, let's try different approaches. Flanking them works great, as long as we can get/find a location where grass isn't too much of a hindrance for us, and doesn't aid them.

But without proper smoke, and a working AI concept of area fire, and a working concept of them being suppressed - I find it damned hard to employ maneuvers as a tactical element to beat AI."

Edited June 30, 2012 by Bouben

[maturin 12]

In short, I as a human being can't see any sign there is a body laying down there on that screenshot.

Send me the mission, because your circle is not very exact. I suspect that he is looking around the small pine and seeing through (one of only two) glitched tree trunks in the game. This because of my very good experience with pine trees' viewblock properties.

So to answer your question: I would not be dead at all, because a human would not see anything is laying in there untill he removed those trees and grass clutter. And that is the whole point of this discussion.

But there are even more situations where the AI would be prone behind that tree, with his head buried in needles, and you would see his legs and be able to kill him from many angles and any distance, while he would be unable to do the same. That is my retort and counterargument, since I am referring to 100% consistent behavior that favors the player, while you are pointing at (in this instance) a very rare glitch that I have yet to experience.

Do you believe there is something wrong with the AI in forest combat that needs to be tweaked apart from the tree trunks bug? If yes, please, what would it be?

A review of Chernarus viewblock geometry, which is spotty. Tweaking the ferns to hide units like field grass does. Procedurally reduce AI spotting ability both in and out of combat when they are in a forest. Make them less likely to spot units in shadows. Let them recognize arms and legs as enemy targets. Tweak their suppressive AI to fire at the entirety of a tree or bush when firing at a target behind it that was assigned by a spotter with clear line of sight.

"I have to agree with smoke usage. It's definately not good enough. The only application is to screen your movements when you haven't been made. Once you've been made, they will follow you with high accuracy when you should be covered by smoke. It's not firing blindly into the smoke, it's pinpoint accuracy.

I think this glitch only applies to certain vehicles, and won't believe otherwise until I see a solid repro acceptable for the bugtracker. I have complete confidence behind smoke, and tend to play medic in MP, spending long minutes healing units with ACE Wounds System, all in the middle of furious firefight. Once I run into that smoke, it's almost as good as hard cover. Furthermore, the smoke the AI sees tends to be larger than what we see. Additionally, there is a glitch that allows us to see through nearby smoke with scopes, a big potential exploit.

Our AI skill and accuracy are set so low I'm almost ashamed to admit it. But it was done in order to try out some maneuvering tactics instead of distant range shooting. Due to the way AI handles grass, by firing accurately at us, instead of "suppressing the grass, area shooting", we want to employ smoke to screen a flanking maneuver. My idea was that instead of bitching about the grass, let's try different approaches. Flanking them works great, as long as we can get/find a location where grass isn't too much of a hindrance for us, and doesn't aid them.

Chernarus grass now hides units so well it's downright unfair to the AI. If you get the elevation and thickness right, it's better than an invisibility cloak against prone units.

[Bouben 3]

Chernarus grass now hides units so well it's downright unfair to the AI. If you get the elevation and thickness right, it's better than an invisibility cloak against prone units.

Well, not in my experience. I am quite often in situations when enemy AI follows me precisely (testing with AIDetection(mission+scripts)_v1.1)in grass even if I can see absolutely nothing. I believe the grass conceal us very approximately and not really how one would expect to conceal us when you look at it. Sometimes I am incomprehensibly not seen in a grass and most of the time I am incomprehensibly seen. What really bothers me is that it does not work reliably. I often look what AI unit really see and most of the time (talking about grass) a human player would not see a thing (talking about situations when enemy knowsAbout me and I have changed position as sneaky as possible).

EDIT:

Anyway, thank you very much for your answers. I hope those stuff you have mentioned will get fixed in A2.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Bouben

[maturin 12]

Yes, the grass is a beta patch workaround, and is not to be relied on. A hopeful sign for ArmA 3 if nothing else.

But it's grass, and really shouldn't be reliable. A soldier wouldn't rely on it in real life, although I do want BI to accomplish as much of the impossible task of grass viewblock as possible.

[Bouben 3]

Allright, good.

[Echo38 1]

I did a pretty solid test myself in which a tank repeatedly followed me around a city, without my ever coming close to exposing myself (except for the initial shot at him). He did not, in fact, ever actually have line of sight on me--when I fired on him, he was looking the other way with both turrets, and I popped behind a building 0.5 seconds after firing the rocket. And yet he managed to follow me through a city, even though I never let any part of myself come close to showing to him.

However, this was CTI, which has the "strategic icons" even at maximum difficulty options. I suspect he may have been using the command mode icons to find me.

There's no doubt at all that the A.I. cheats. It cheats like hell, even at very low A.I. skill settings. Is it ridiculously stupid, too? Absolutely. But "two wrongs don't make a right," and so an A.I. blatantly cheating by seeing (and shooting!) through things it shouldn't be able to see through (houses, walls, grass, trees, and sometimes even hills) does not somehow "make up" for the A.I. being stupid. The stupid kills immersion, but the cheating kills immersion even more. Final result? Extra-extra killed immersion.

Some might think that the A.I. is merely doing the "predictive" check, or engaging in suppressive fire, but this isn't true. It really does cheat. I did a test once where I crawled along behind a small embankment--completely covered, no part of me showing above it--while a tank's machine gun bullets kept following me, kicking up dirt right above my head the entire time as I crawled along, out of his LoS. If he doesn't have LoS, he shouldn't be tracking my movements with his gun. Not predictive, but 100% accurate tracking regardless of where and when I move.

It also can't be true that they only aim for chest and head--the vehicle A.I. often shoots a player in the arm as the latter creeps around a corner, before the player is fully exposed. We're talking about getting shot before you come around the corner, even if you're in a full run. It starts shooting a half-second before you come around the corner, and kills you with multiple bullets to the arm before your chest is in its LoS.

Fix the cheating first, and then worry about making the A.I. less stupid. The A.I. is, in my opinion, the largest weakness in this game (followed closely by the unrealistic weapon mechanics).

Edited July 1, 2012 by Echo38