Real GUnsounds

[tremanarch 6]

Hi guys, this is no rocket science is it?

how does a real gun sound really?

I dont have any..

but how can recordings be so different from each other?

is it more like A or like B?

edit: both recordings are from an AK74

--

why not just make 2 recordings of every gun: one in plain field and one in a city / between buildings.

And then blend these sounds according to the ingame map..

examples:

range from: 0: only plain field sound to 1: city sound

so 0.3 for the side of a village or 0.9 running to a street in the city or so? (just mix the volume of each sound accordingly..)

--

I mean gunning around in games is going on for years and years, cant be rocket science to improve it finally, can it?

--

edit here is what I mean, all I needed was 2 Gunsounds and a cheap Reverb Effect and 10 minutes of my time fiddling with this shitty movie maker in Windows and searching for nice pics.. really..

This is just my imagination How it could sound mainly, dont know how it really sounds, there fore this thread and so on..

this is utterly important for the immersion, how can this not be in any game since 20 years? what is so rocket science about this?

I admit I come from the sound department, pretty much knowledge there, but zero Knowledge in Game programming and Military Ops - just wondering what the big rocket science could be..

--

and the real worst of all is, when I hear the sound is cuttet in Games, when they dont let the whole reverb in the file.. so wehn firing a gun there is a sudden stop after a second.. *shaking* thats so bad...

Edited May 26, 2012 by tremanarch

[no use for a name 0]

It also depends on how you record it: Type/quality of equipment and sound compression; placement/distance/number of microphones; terrain/objects, etc. etc. Don't forget that when you shoot a gun, the vibrations/sound also travels thru the weapon and into your body which also alters what you actually hear, so really there's too many variables to get it "perfect".

It also depends on the type of sound emulation/system in the game. You shouldn't need 20 different sounds for one weapon; the sound system should be able to add the appropriate effects in real-time. I believe there's a couple mods that add echos, reverb, and distance variations depending on terrain and objects; so the capabilities are there it's just not implemented by default.

Edited May 27, 2012 by No Use For A Name

[max power 21]

Hi guys, this is no rocket science is it?

Actually, I think sound design is quite complex. Not only do you have the complexity of the sounds themselves, but also the equipment you are using to both record and play back. Recording weapons is also not easy, I think, because they are not only so far beyond loud, but their sounds are created by shockwaves, not normal sound waves. So, I think there is a fair degree of artistic and technical interpretation. BI opted for sound effects with a lot of frequency and amplitude range because they felt they would sound really good being played really loud, with lots of nuance. Unfortunately, this means they sound a bit flat in my opinion when played at normal volumes. Another factor is how loud to play them back at. Do you really want the same volume range between normal speaking and a gunshot? I think not.

[tremanarch 6]

yeah thats a problem. I See that. My post was not bashing Bi or so as I think they did a great Job, and ArmA 3 will be even better from what I could hear.

I am just curious. At some point there have to be "artisitic interpretations" as you have expressed so beautiful ;) yes I think so thats true. And I like the sounds more "flat" - not boosted with a cheap effect or so - but I think something similar to that could be needed maybe.

The thing is with loudness differences: the sound engine could be tweaked, that when a loud sound (eg a sound with normal 0 db [- all sounds should be normalized to 0], but tagged as "loud" or "quiet" for the engine, Firing Sounds and such) is played, normal sounds are played lower in volume. So the overall VOlume is still 0 db, but all you hear now are gunshots and not speaking and walking comrades.

I think 2 or 3 classes of SOunds could be enough: eg: loud (firing, aircrafts), normal (car driving normal, operating machines and stuff), quiet (talking, walking sounds). Or course the range matters too. I can see thats really complicated. Because to use the easy way: our ears to make that, would be impossible as we needed speakers to be as loud as a starting jet ^^

My inital post was just about the gunfiring records (these are examples). I just couldnt understand why these sound so different (I understand WHY they sound different but I dont WHy they are used as equal.) They are not from BIS, its just I was wondering why no one has come to an easy, but still good solution yet.

BF3 did it easy. They just have 2 sound classes I guess. When a loud sound is played the rest (WInd and stuff footsteps etc etc) is toned down (not only in volume i guess a little filter is also applied) and the "loud" sound is played normally. Then when the loud sound gets lower in volume or is stopped, the background sounds are coming in again. Its like the HDR Effect for ears. Not authenthic yes, but it is not so bad though, for a game.

I suspect this sound trick is a scripted engine trick, it is not implemented in the sound itself. I had Errors in BF3 where I had the background toned down but there wasnt a loud sound in front, so I understand that they made it this way.

Another way could be to mix all sounds together, and in the end normalize them to 0.

So an example 1: a tiny sound (talking) only gets played. It is lets say -20 db it goes to the mixer, and then just before it gets to the speaker out, it gets normalized to 0 db.

Example 2: this tiny sound (-20db) and now a loud sound (-3 db) gets played and routet again to said mixer. Now when the overall output signal gets normalized to 0, the loud and and the tiny sound only get gained for 3 db. So the difference between loud and not loud is there, but still the output sound is 0 db loud.

then the game engine could be more flexible and not had to choose between 2 or 3 sound classes but could apply in tiny steps the volume, for firing sound thats 50 m or 74,2 m away etc... Just an Idea.

Edited May 27, 2012 by tremanarch

[max power 21]

The engine already has a volume variable in decibels and plays that sound as the sound with the highest volume, and scales all other sounds to be below that. This is why you don't hear birds chirping in a firefight.

As modders we have to be careful to keep BIS's sound scale or adopt a whole new on or else weird things happen like you can hear things when you shouldn't or quiet things drown out loud things.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Max Power

[tremanarch 6]

AH yes, this I like to hear! Thats How I would do it too!

SO my Example (just a mix and a Limiter applied) is not needed anymore.. I also chose bird samples that ducks away from firing sounds and from Jet (not so good quality - recorded just with a cheap micro at a jet show) sounds...

What I did here too is, I exaggerated the "effect". THis is what many people like, for my tastes it is too aggressive, but I did it to show the - now obsolete - meaning of my Idea I explained above.

The more this Effect - the more fatiguing the Sounds are over time. (referring to the loudness war)

I have to say BIS are very professional guys!

So the gunsounds are composed by different aspects: the overall Loudness; and the environmental reverb (surface reflection). Of course not taken into account that some people use ear protection. (This could be a game client option to make all sounds dampened or so)...

I understand now better thats it is not only complex but could cost much CPU Power too. ( that would also double when Stereo Samples are used - which is nevertheless a good idea though)

Edited May 27, 2012 by tremanarch

[domokun 515]

tremanarch: if you're interested in experiencing higher fidelity firearms sounds, I strongly recommend that you try the JSRS sound mod

[NeuroFunker 11]

try JSRS and H.A.R.C.P sound mod. Mixed together, it's really mind blowing experience (HARCP works on Chernarus and Utes only, adds reverb to environment, especialy its lovely in the woods, shots coming from open field, reflecting in woods etc, or even small garage reverb.

I also suggested in a thread, something about BF3 sound engine, to use at least some very simple reverberation, just to make it more realistic, when you hear, where the shots have been coming from: city, open field or woods, or maybe inside a building. Imo reverberation, is very important thing, which we hear everyday, and when it's not there, everything sound less realistic/unnatural. It's used literary everywhere: in music industry (i can't imgaine, not using reverb in my ambient tracks) movie industry, and even in games, it's been there for years already...

Why not for example, making JSRS as a part of ArmA game, like BIS is going to do with DAYZ in 1.61 patch?

Not to nag or blame someone, but i hope with increased ArmA 2 CO sells, BIS will invest more finances to improve sound engine and the sounds itself.:)

Edited May 29, 2012 by NeuroFunker

[NoRailgunner 0]

Tried JSRS and had a lag within 20 minutes - with default sound and other soundmod same mission/scenario was smooth. Imo most people only heard fake/entertaining 'war sounds' they would be a little bit upset how stuff really sounds eg handgrenades. Just adding reverberation to all sounds would maybe increase the entertaining effect but not the realism.... you don't hear a reverb everywhere you are or go.

A reverberation, or reverb, is created when a sound is produced in an enclosed space causing a large number of echoes to build up and then slowly decay as the sound is absorbed by the walls and air.

[tremanarch 6]

what the guy with reverberation meant is reflection. And you hear this everywhere but in space. The wiki article is too unprecise.

Coming from the music scene too I understand what he means. Reverberation or better lets call it reflection can be very subtle and depends heavily on surfaces.

Normal people maybe think he meant a big not subtle reverb effect on every gun, he clearly doesnt mean this - just we guys from the music biz call this stuff reverb because that is what it is.

ALso our own faces / head reflects the sound so it is impossible to hear a sound that is not reverbed. (There could be a way including brain surgery and input sound information direct to the neurons, but that is not possible in 2012, maybe in 2100 and you wouldnt call this "hearing" more like input information).

Our brain works with this informations to distinct from where the sounds are coming from. We dont have dolby surround 5.1 ears on our head - do we? so we only need a good stereo source but added with these kind of rendering (reflection and what is often forgotten loudness).

I tried the JSRS, but somehow some sounds are a little weird. Maybe I give it another try. I think it is too high pitched. There are some strange high pitched noises I dont like. I like Ace_SM better as an example (even if that is so much more simple and lacks different sounds, so you can hear a delay effect when several people fire the same gun, and so trigger the same sound.. annoying).

this is how a real gunfight should sound like maybe:

the problem here again is the recording itself. you can hear slight distortion (tape effect), loudness effect, bad microphone.

But like max power expressed so good: the artistic effect is not a bad thing.

When a game sounds like this youtube recording, maybe with a little less loudness effect, then I am happy ^^ ALso I do like the soldiers screaming..

I guess Neurofunker listens to Neurofunk then? another head on the forum.. nice one.

Edited May 29, 2012 by tremanarch

[special_air_service 10]

I wonder, is the Gun sounds in ArmA II : Operation Arrowhead are different from ArmA II , because I knew that ArmA II engine are upgraded in OA but is that including gunsounds as well ?

[NeuroFunker 11]

I wonder, is the Gun sounds in ArmA II : Operation Arrowhead are different from ArmA II , because I knew that ArmA II engine are upgraded in OA but is that including gunsounds as well ?

Only new ones, that came with new weapons. All or most from ArmA 2 stayed. They upgraded samples from 16 or 32 to 128 (switchable in optinos) More samples = more sounds you hear at same time. For example at large battles, no sounds giting "eaten" by others, cause they got enough room to be played at same time.

Tremanarch Yes, neurofunk is what i love (especially from russia: receptor, engage, paperclip). Nice to see, someone else knows about neuro too ;)

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------

Tried JSRS and had a lag within 20 minutes - with default sound and other soundmod same mission/scenario was smooth. Imo most people only heard fake/entertaining 'war sounds' they would be a little bit upset how stuff really sounds eg handgrenades. Just adding reverberation to all sounds would maybe increase the entertaining effect but not the realism.... you don't hear a reverb everywhere you are or go.

Reflection/echo is what i mean. I guess only on a big open field, with low grass, doesn't produce muxg reflection, elsewhere you hear original+reflected sound, especially at cities, woods, inside a church etc.) Imo hearing "dry" sound like in arma, is almost like seeing every color in black and white. No matter what/where, it sounds dry, not reflected by something.

[NoRailgunner 0]

In the end battle sound is just a brutal and horrible loud noise that has nothing to do with art or entertainment. Imo the player should not feel happy to be or walk into the cacophony of war. For sound devs it would be lot of work to get all the sounds right in a highly dynamic area and in all situations. How many different reverbs/echos a human ear can notice/sense in Arma terrain? How much is "cut out" just because one has to focus on more important things? Usually players do hear more than few single shots and one explosions at time.... ;)

[tremanarch 6]

SOftware can render this automatically. I saw SW demos where a sound source was hidden in a labyrinth. The surfaces reflectet the sound different. You could locate the sound source by only navigating with ears (stereo of course). That made me thinking. Of course it wasnt perfect, but no one wants sth. perfect. Just a step in the right direction.

not only the material is important but the shape of the surface too:

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Sound/reflection.htm

what is missing there is, that these waves reflectet and hitting each other can produce different phase eliminations and multiplications too.

interesting article: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/sound-technology/index.html

Edited May 29, 2012 by tremanarch

[NeuroFunker 11]

In the end battle sound is just a brutal and horrible loud noise that has nothing to do with art or entertainment. Imo the player should not feel happy to be or walk into the cacophony of war. For sound devs it would be lot of work to get all the sounds right in a highly dynamic area and in all situations. How many different reverbs/echos a human ear can notice/sense in Arma terrain? How much is "cut out" just because one has to focus on more important things? Usually players do hear more than few single shots and one explosions at time.... ;)

well just play with HARCP. Nothing is impossible. I like what i hear there. Not perfect, but not bad either.

[McSpeed 1]

I never had any problems with J.S.R.S./ "lag"wise as you say, it would interest me what specs your setup has and/or what other addons you use.

as to jsrs sounding "wierd" - you have to make sure you set your samples to 128 in the options / audio menu -

also be sure to have the latest version including the patch /update for jsrs installed.

[hellfire257 3]

JSRS has the potential to cause lag on some machines due to the nature of the distant sounds script.The reason this happens is because it uses "fired" eventHandlers. A lot of EH's triggering in quick succession can cause lag.

Having said that though, it shouldn't be a problem unless you have a large amount of units all firing at once. I know I haven't had a problem with it which is a testament to LJ's hard work! :)

[NeuroFunker 11]

i had no lags, perhaps cause i have "creative x-fi extreme music" soundcard, it does render sound by it self, which unloads cpu abit.

[NoRailgunner 0]

It was a mission with combined forces in Zargabad - with JSRS (no other addons/mods), after a while I could run around enemy tanks and vehicles without getting shot. Guess that JSRS is just better for small battles/fights where one can listen devotedly to every bullet/shell....sound ;)

[NeuroFunker 11]

It was a mission with combined forces in Zargabad - with JSRS (no other addons/mods), after a while I could run around enemy tanks and vehicles without getting shot. Guess that JSRS is just better for small battles/fights where one can listen devotedly to every bullet/shell....sound ;)

wait, u mean JSRS causedthat bug, where u were not shot by enemies?

[maturin 12]

It was a mission with combined forces in Zargabad - with JSRS (no other addons/mods), after a while I could run around enemy tanks and vehicles without getting shot. Guess that JSRS is just better for small battles/fights where one can listen devotedly to every bullet/shell....sound ;)

You're assuming that a sound mod caused a gameplay bug, not the mission? :confused:

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well without JSRS the mission did not lag and was smooth, with ACE_SM the same mission worked too. Perhaps going to test it with upcoming new JSRS 1.5....