Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

[metalcraze 290]

There's already hold breath button in ArmA2. It's RMB. When you aim you are holding it and holding your breath (the sound of breathing even disappears)

The fact that you don't even know this already says that simulating instinct with a button works perfectly.

Except in ArmA2 it's done badly. It just lessens the random sway and you can hold breath for too long. And then when you release RMB your aim starts to shake like mad. Whereas VBS2 had it done well.

[feralcircus 2]

It's great as it is...

I recently bought Trackir 5 (head tracking) and it's turned my ARMA 2 into a completely different experience! And It's made the aiming much more realistic :-)

I just hope they impliment 6 DOF in ARMA 3

[LeeManatee 4]

It's great as it is...

I just hope they impliment 6 DOF in ARMA 3

i use trackir aswell. disabled look on mouse so weapon stays in center and don't mess up with movement/aiming.

and yeah will be extremelly better to lean head left or right to lean instead of going left or right.

[-Coulum- 35]

Arcade options or not, a lot of shots I would make in real life, I can't Arma. (As

in hitting a target or actually dropping a target in stead of just hurting the guy so he can

limp out of sight and come after me. Vica versa also)

But is this necessarily because of shaky aim or because you are able to see your targets

in more detail in reality so you can hit them in culnerable spots. And how fast can you

make these shots. I don’t necessarily have a problem with the accuracy of shots, but

rather the amount of time and concentration needed to line them up. In arma you can

snap shoot from 200-300 metres away and get a kill in seconds.

As for things like holding breath, I find those natural and instinctive when you're

firing a weapon. Changing instinct by pressing a button in game, may perhaps simulate

that, but the fact that I actually have to think to pres it, is damnright annoying and

detaches me from the experience.

I am sure the first time you played a video game, pressing w to go forward wasn’t

instinctive as well. I think that over time a hold breath key would becmoe instinctive to

use as well.

It's great as it is...

I recently bought Trackir 5 (head tracking) and it's turned my ARMA 2 into a completely

different experience! And It's made the aiming much more realistic :-)

I just hope they impliment 6 DOF in ARMA 3

How does Trackir change aiming? Is the current system “great as it is†without trackir as

well?

[LeeManatee 4]

you can look around while aiming so thats rahter awesome then ironsight in center of the screen.

[-Coulum- 35]

but does it actually make aiming different. I though I heard somewhere its difficult to align the sights or something with trackIR...

[LeeManatee 4]

nah. i just disabled look on mouse so my gun in center and controlled by mouse, while i can look around only with trackir or alt key down.

so in this case nothing is getting messed up.

[bluedrake42 10]

of COURSE harder aim is better

who in gods name is voting against this!?

[4 IN 1 0]

Reading this thread honestly makes me think that most people talking don't really have any real life firearm experience...FPDR

[Nicholas 5]

Reading this thread honestly makes me think that most people talking don't really have any real life firearm experience...FPDR

Yeah, aiming isn't really that hard.

[maturin 12]

People who want aiming to be harder would rather have realistic firefights than realistic aiming. I held a gun earlier today and didn't have any 'sway.' Of course, had it been loaded I would have flinched in front of the recoil and jerked the barrel around with my trigger pull, but you can't model any of that without a dispersion cone. No one in a firefight gets first-round hits on 300m point targets. So sway it is...

[4 IN 1 0]

Yeah, aiming isn't really that hard.

True, and for a computer game we already assuming that we have good trigger control and good stance and a good grip(even though the grip animation ain't what can be considered a good grip), which already cover 3/5 of the things that required for accurate shots. To mess with any of these would simply makes the game over complicated. Even sight picture shouldn't be temper with, and that leave us only one thing left to temper with,which is breathing control.

Edited May 25, 2012 by 4 IN 1

[rye1 21]

Aiming isn't really that 300m instant kill...

But the AI can be just as bad as we can.

Sway it is, but controlled sway during Close Quarters, please. Over-sway in those situations is just pathetic - overexaggerated when you're moving 10 inches and missing the target completely at 3 meters. Too 'static-y', twitchy and stop, go, stop go. It's like trying to drag a rock of an aiming reticule at the enemy then suddenly it speeds up like it's on helium then FUCK, I've gone past the target, quick fucking back-track I'm getting shot at. It's all the control, sensitivity crap - mix that with the 'deadzone' and it takes you two years just to get the mouse settings right. I find it really hard to snap to targets in a constant stream, shooting in cadence, in Arma.

So do many of my old and current clan buddies as we have tested in 'training' sessions with linear targets evenly spaced. You have to really fiddle to get those settings right. It worries me for the future Arma if those long-range engagements are totally different to the short ones and how we change those settings or adjust them automatically without fancy mouse software.

@maturin; Is that your idea of research? More information, good God man! How far away were you? What weapon? How much did it weigh? BIS NEED THIS INFORMATIONS FOR THEIR VERY ACCURATES CHARACTORZZZZZZZZZ.

[feralcircus 2]

How does Trackir change aiming? Is the current system “great as it is†without trackir as

well?

I thought it was brilliant without but now...

I wouldn't play ARMA or any other simulation without Trackir.

Once you've got used to it, playing without feels almost 2D and restricted.

I'd strongly advise you to get it. Mine was only £160 bargain! :-)

[Nicholas 5]

I thought it was brilliant without but now...

I wouldn't play ARMA or any other simulation without Trackir.

Once you've got used to it, playing without feels almost 2D and restricted.

I'd strongly advise you to get it. Mine was only £160 bargain! :-)

I cannot play ArmA without my TrackIR. I love it so much!

[-Coulum- 35]

Reading this thread honestly makes me think that most people talking don't really have any real life firearm experience...

Yeah, aiming isn't really that hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbky1jwTysQ

I guess I am just a bad shot in real life because I know that I cannot line up that kind of shot in that amount of time in real life. I have tried and the best I can do is around 9 seconds at 300 metres. In that vid it was just over 3 and it took minimum concentration/effort. No shooting isn’t super complex or difficult but it definitely isn’t as easy as it is in arma… But maybe I am just a horrible shot. Can you guys shoot that accurately that quickly?

People who want aiming to be harder would rather have realistic firefights than realistic aiming.

Exactly. It is impossible to portray the real ability of a shooter in a video game, and arma isn’t a shooting simulation anyway. But it is possible to make firefights play out more realistically and to do this, IMO aiming needs to be tweaked a bit. It doesn’t necessarily mean that players should be made inaccurate, just that they should require more time and concentration in order to be as accurate as they are currently.

Think about it. Why does VBS2 have weaponsway and breath control, if it is so unrealistic…

of course aiming when wounded, tired or moving is a whole other issue. its ridiculous in arma 2 and needs to be more controllable.

[rye1 21]

of course aiming when wounded, tired or moving is a whole other issue. its ridiculous in arma 2 and needs to be more controllable.

Or under 'stress', if loads of rounds go over your head you start to shake more. And the longer your keep your breathe held. Those are pretty cool features even though they kind of make it TOO awkward:- I wonder what tactical pace will be like with this? Do you think the AI will be able to use tactical pace?

Judging by your statement: 9 seconds vs 3 seconds. So you want to make aiming and taking the shot at range three times harder? :p Only question I can ask is, how? In list form please. :D

[Ginga121 1]

I think Arma 3 should have a hardcore aiming systems option for servers. That would enable people who are not super skilled at the game to enjoy it with the simpler Arma 2 aiming system, but those who are better and want to be challenged more, could enable a more complex aiming system that took more time to sort out.

That way it caters for the hardcore arma player, and the casual arma player.

[kingnl 0]

I hop BIS will implement VBS2 style of aiming. It's a perfect system. Long distance shots will take a couple seconds longer, because you have to hold your breath and line up your shot. And close quarters will still be the same. since the weapon sway is not noticable at that range. This should also stop the 300 meter laser shots with iron sights.

[Nicholas 5]

Why does VBS2 have weaponsway and breath control, if it is so unrealistic…

VBS2 is designed for military use. ArmA is a game.

I think Arma 3 should have a hardcore aiming systems option for servers. That would enable people who are not super skilled at the game to enjoy it with the simpler Arma 2 aiming system, but those who are better and want to be challenged more, could enable a more complex aiming system that took more time to sort out.

That way it caters for the hardcore arma player, and the casual arma player.

It has nothing to do with skill.

[rye1 21]

What do you think tactical pace with pistols will be like? Dual-weilding accuracy is going to be so hard...

Flame-bait without mentioning BF3, where's my sticker?

Slovakian Special Forces (c.2009, by Tango, SF TL).

Love the accuracy seen here. Little sway, cadence of shooting, easy maneuver, stable moving platform, quick shots in succession.

I dream tactical pace will be this good... *drool*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XckaAP8frcE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XckaAP8frcE Slovakian Special Forces, Linear Range Drills (by Tango SF TL).

It is an MP5, I get the arguments. I had a discussion though with Coulumn, I don't know what others think of the idea...

But what if certain weaponry changed the way it handled (hold up, I know it already does that) in terms of these new features/ideas.

For instance you needed real trigger control, good consistent breathes and a slow heart rate for a sniper rifle but it was really negated for the MP5 or a pistol, what you needed there was good sight alignment, picture and a small amount of recoil control.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Rye

[-Coulum- 35]

Judging by your statement: 9 seconds vs 3 seconds. So you want to make aiming and taking the shot at range three times harder? Only question I can ask is, how? In list form please.

Well i guess you could say 3 times harder. I am no soldier (yet) and I assume that a soldier could line up a shot like that in less time, maybe 6 seconds. So more like 2x as hard as now. But not 2x as inaccurate.

How I think that can be achieved...

---> a more noticeable figure 8 sway that is smooth and predictable

---> a key to "focus, steady and hold breath" that requires the weapon already be relatively stationary, takes a few seconds to take effect and only

lasts a few seconds

With this kind of system you would

1. acquire a target and put it in your sights as you do now (2 sec).

2. Press the "steady/hold breath/focus" button -your charactr reduces sway by means of breath control, locking arms etc. - over a period of 3 seconds sway would decrease and then reach a minimum of 0. If during these 3 seconds there are any sudden movements the steadying process is immediately cancelled. (3 sec)

4. this 0 sway would last varying amounts of time depending on fatigue - in a rested soldier it would last 2 seconds or so. during that time the player will have his chance to line up the target and take his shot. (2 sec)

5. After the time is up the sway returns to normal.

6. repeat

With that kind of system it would take about 2+3+2= 7 seconds to line up a shot. You may ask how an extra 4 seconds can make that much of a difference but it could mean the difference between a 1vs1 lasting 10 seconds and a 1vs.1 lasting a minute as those extra seconds encourage suppressive fire and allow players to take cover before getting accurately shot at. Imagine what it would do to a platoon level firefight. I am pretty sure I am going to be told this is too complex however.

VBS2 is designed for military use. ArmA is a game.

I only bring up VBS2 because you seemed to indicate that sway in arma would make aiming harder than it is in real life. And I am simply asking, if that were true, why is it that VBS2, which is designed for military use and which tries as best it can to represent reality accurately, uses weapon sway? If it makes aiming more difficult than it is in reality wouldn't VBS2 not use it?

and keep in mind that many people like tonnes of realism in their game just like many people like zero realism in their games. so when you say "VBS2 is designed for military use. ArmA is a game." I fail to see your point.

But honestly Nicholas, after that vid showing how easy it is to pick off a guy with an aimpoint at such range do still believe aiming should be so simple. Surely there could be little bit of tweaking to sway, "time to steady" or something like that to make shooting more challenging...

It has nothing to do with skill.

Well more difficult aiming would force/require players to be more tactical when trying to be offensive.

I think Arma 3 should have a hardcore aiming systems option for servers. That would enable people who are not super skilled at the game to enjoy it with the simpler Arma 2 aiming system, but those who are better and want to be challenged more, could enable a more complex aiming system that took more time to sort out.

Yeah that would be ideal. That way eveyone gets what they want... of course BI might not want to invest in a feature not everyone is going to use. But Hell just making a smoother sway and adding a "setaimsway" command for addon makers would be good enough for me. I would jump on it. Already use the "setrecoilcoef" when I play SP to greatly enhance fights.

But what if certain weaponry changed the way it handled (hold up, I know it already does that) in terms of these new features/ideas.

For instance you needed real trigger control, good consistent breathes and a slow heart rate for a sniper rifle but it was really negated for the MP5 or a pistol, what you needed there was good sight alignment, picture and a small amount of recoil control.

I like that idea. less sway, and more control for smaller weapons and more sway and more clunkiness for larger weapons. IMO all weapons need decrease in sway while moving, esp. strafing but especially the smaller close combat oriented ones like submachine guns and pistols.

I also find weapons to feel clunky in arma compared to other games. This is fine for larger weapons but for close combat weapons it sucks. I think it would be good to make close quarters weapons handle more like more traditional FPS's (won't mentnion names for fear of being lynched) and make bigger weapons have that "arma" feel to them

[dekster 1]

But is this necessarily because of shaky aim or because you are able to see your targets

in more detail in reality so you can hit them in culnerable spots. And how fast can you

make these shots. I don’t necessarily have a problem with the accuracy of shots, but

rather the amount of time and concentration needed to line them up. In arma you can

snap shoot from 200-300 metres away and get a kill in seconds.

Actually, most shots I miss are at relativly close range. (30-120m)

Something else I experienced was for example with the Mod0 MG, I was holding an overview(on my belly), trying to flank the enemy (pvp server, hold).

First shot I mised was a guy who was sitting, he was just a little bit bigger then my red dot and I couldn't line my red dot on him. It was a bit too low, just wanted to put it up a notch, but it just wasn't possible and took a lot of time; by that time he was on the move.

Another "problem" is the opposite, bullit spread can be a pain in the ass. For example for surpressive fire with a mounted MG.

[-Coulum- 35]

Actually, most shots I miss are at relativly close range. (30-120m)

In arma? how?

Something else I experienced was for example with the Mod0 MG, I was holding an overview(on my belly), trying to flank the enemy (pvp server, hold).

First shot I mised was a guy who was sitting, he was just a little bit bigger then my red dot and I couldn't line my red dot on him. It was a bit too low, just wanted to put it up a notch, but it just wasn't possible and took a lot of time; by that time he was on the move.

yeah that is annoying. Its what I meant by "you are able to see targets in more detail in reality". I don't think there is anyway to fix it. But in reality would a soldier be trying to hit a point target at the ranges this problem occurs at anyways? And what I hate is that when This happens all you gotta do is go prone place the aimpoint as close as possible to the target and spam shots. I find that within 10 seconds the enemy goes down. Like this(sorry if the quality isn't good enough to see the russian, trust me he was alive at the start)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekUJ77RwCUs

[rye1 21]

[FIRST QUESTION REPLY]

Well i guess you could say 3 times harder. I am no soldier (yet) and I assume that a soldier could line up a shot like that in less time, maybe 6 seconds. So more like 2x as hard as now. But not 2x as inaccurate.

How I think that can be achieved...

---> a more noticeable figure 8 sway that is smooth and predictable

---> a key to "focus, steady and hold breath" that requires the weapon already be relatively stationary, takes a few seconds to take effect and only

lasts a few seconds

With this kind of system you would

1. acquire a target and put it in your sights as you do now (2 sec).

2. Press the "steady/hold breath/focus" button -your charactr reduces sway by means of breath control, locking arms etc. - over a period of 3 seconds sway would decrease and then reach a minimum of 0. If during these 3 seconds there are any sudden movements the steadying process is immediately cancelled. (3 sec)

4. this 0 sway would last varying amounts of time depending on fatigue - in a rested soldier it would last 2 seconds or so. during that time the player will have his chance to line up the target and take his shot. (2 sec)

5. After the time is up the sway returns to normal.

6. repeat

With that kind of system it would take about 2+3+2= 7 seconds to line up a shot. You may ask how an extra 4 seconds can make that much of a difference but it could mean the difference between a 1vs1 lasting 10 seconds and a 1vs.1 lasting a minute as those extra seconds encourage suppressive fire and allow players to take cover before getting accurately shot at. Imagine what it would do to a platoon level firefight. I am pretty sure I am going to be told this is too complex however.

[iDEA REPLY]

I like that idea. less sway, and more control for smaller weapons and more sway and more clunkiness for larger weapons. IMO all weapons need decrease in sway while moving, esp. strafing but especially the smaller close combat oriented ones like submachine guns and pistols.

I also find weapons to feel clunky in arma compared to other games. This is fine for larger weapons but for close combat weapons it sucks. I think it would be good to make close quarters weapons handle more like more traditional FPS's (won't mentnion names for fear of being lynched) and make bigger weapons have that "arma" feel to them

Thanks. They sound like pretty achieveable ideas based on a good philosophy of the game. My idea won't be incorporated so I hope the figure-8 sway is slowed naturally, especially for close quarters and point or instinctive shooting.

I agree with what you have stated. They feel clunky to me also. I've gone through 4 years of Arma gaming, 3 mice, multiple different in-game settings and configurations such as deadzone, axis sensitivity, graphics and FPS-speeds to finally get a workable responsive setting that is good for common situations but not all. For instance, I still get over-sway at times, I am still a bit stuttery (the 'weight' factor) trying to get on target with the mouse - in COD/BF3/Nameyourshooter (Sorry metalcraze!) it is a lot more "I see a target at close range, move mouse, I'm on the target, no problems". Fast gaming, the exact needed for PVP/URBAN/CQB.

I'd like to expand...

Basically you're right. I'm suggesting closer combat weapons are easier for the player to use, not just handle in terms of accuracy:

- Less sway and over-sway (Figure-8; stationary and moving)

- Faster and more responsive to mouse movements (like a conventional shooter)

Larger weaponry or calibres should have:

- More sway dependent on breathing etc, and moving sway similar to now (with better character movement animations it could be way easier to control in urban settings)

- Less responsive actions as compared with smaller weaponry

The simple basis could be: Weight, size, calibre, role/use (I.e. CQB-only or long-range).

Note: Stance, leaning would change test conditions and possibilities for A3.

"Testing" standards:

5m distance. 1m spacing between targets.

Moving or shooting is up to you.

M16 Stationary Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCO_SfEc5oM

Start from a right facing position, lateral/pararrell to the target. Power turn into the target zone, bring up sights and sweep from left to right and back.

You see some amount of over-sway and brick-like hesistation to drag the sights on target. A "spin" and unnatural movement within the sight picture, my guy must be on crack.

Real-life M4-series comparison.

He has faster cadence, better control, more responsive shooting, less sway, more accuracy down sight or barrel line.

M16 Moving Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QvlytfCDsE

Now this video is all down to HOW YOUR CHARACTER MOVES. He shakes a lot, he wobbles, does he have a peg leg?

MP5 Stationary Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re8GuT6WfGw

A hell of a lot more reactive and accurate but still vitally important that it can over-sway easily and miss simple shots.

MP5 Moving Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0CA6hncOcU

These standards are better than the rifle moving standards. I think the sight and angle of movement helps a lot.

Multiple rounds were put down giving more hits, and you could lead the target easier with it being more reactive and movement.

M9 Stationary Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn9sOoxY-Y0

Way better in terms of recoil obviously but also reactivity and sight picture.

M9 Moving Standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn9sOoxY-Y0

A lot weaker of a run. A less stable platform when moving.

Combat pace here we come...

MP5 and PISTOL REAL LIFE COMPARISON ABOVE, TOP OF THIS PAGE, SF VIDEO.

For longer range you should NEED more CONCERNTRATION and SKILL to use it. The opposite effect is seen in Arma for CQB: You need to concerntrate heavily to get line-of-shot, POA/POI. It should be negated in CQB, especially room clearance. Orientate, engage.

*NOTE: This is not true research, try it for yourself. I'm not saying BIS should base a conclusion off this post but I'm trying to hit points I find hard to put into words.