Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

[DeclaredEvol 10]

Bullet accuracy depends on the barrel length and type. Heavy Barrels are good for long range, but it also depends on how far away. Crosswinds definately can ruin your 'perfectly' aimed shot. I recommend little arm sway, but maybe a timer before the aim becomes steady.

[-Coulum- 35]

Bullet accuracy depends on the barrel length and type. Heavy Barrels are good for long range, but it also depends on how far away. Crosswinds definately can ruin your 'perfectly' aimed shot. I recommend little arm sway, but maybe a timer before the aim becomes steady.

A timer before the aim gets steady would be okay too, but why make the time needed to line up a good shot depend on some preset time? Adding weapon sway will make it so the time needed to line up a good shot depends on how skilled the player is. More weapon sway will also make sniping so much better. If you were a sniper what would you rather be doing.

Set up, adjust your sights and wait for your weapon to "steady out". Then pretty much have a 100% hit rate on still targets

Set up, adjust your sights and time when you want to hold your breath, and when you do using those fleeting seconds to squeeze off a shot. Your hit rate will depend on how good a shot you are.

Personally I think the second option would be so much more rewarding, and result in more realistic gameplay. It would require more specialization in teams, more realistic sniper kill ranges and would probably reduce the number of people spamming sniper rifles in public servers.

And when your not sniping it would be pretty much just as good. Difference is you probably would be shooting alot more and not worrying so much about getting that perfect shot off because you yourself are under fire - Thus you return quick inaccurate fire in an enemies general direction - And firefights with suppressive fire will form. Something that currently is pretty much nonexistent in arma, yet is essential in any modern firefight.

Your idea of "little sway" but a timeout until perfection would probably be better than nothing, but I ask why bother make stabilization "automatic" when you can make it controlled by the player through breath control and smooth predictable sway and require skill and timing on the players part to perform?

[DeclaredEvol 10]

Well, your point is good. I don't truly like the timer idea much, but maybe something like CSS, Swat 4, BF2 Project Reality where you've got to wait a moment so the long distance accuracy is better. I've shot a few AR-15's, but its never really been a matter of breathing for me as much as it is getting my arms and body locked in place. I see the more panicked people are while moving, the less accurate they get from the start.

[-Coulum- 35]

Well, your point is good. I don't truly like the timer idea much, but maybe something like CSS, Swat 4, BF2 Project Reality where you've got to wait a moment so the long distance accuracy is better. I've shot a few AR-15's, but its never really been a matter of breathing for me as much as it is getting my arms and body locked in place. I see the more panicked people are while moving, the less accurate they get from the start.

Your on the right track. A BF2 PR dispersion type system would be fine by me and would probably produce more realism in firefights... but I know alot of people hate these sytems because they think that their shooting ability is left purely to luck and they do have a point. These systems take the skill out of shooting (although currently in my opinion there already is next to no skill involved so we wouldn't be losing much). And, Dispersion would make sniping really really boring and shooting in general would be less immersive. So I would prefer more weapon sway over any form of dispersion. It will cause people to take more time to shoot if they want to get accurate shots and will make shooting ability actually based on the skill of the player.

concerning breathing. There are many ways to shoot. Not everybody tries to control their breath... but you are supposed to (according to the US military). trying to stiffen your muscles to fight off the natural sway of breathing (sounds like what your are describing you do) and hold the rifle steady will work to an extent but it also cause involuntary jerks and twitches if held to long. Therefore it is better to be relaxed and then try to practice proper breathing/holding of breath while shooting. Here's an excerpt from A USMC marksmanship manual (its a bit outdated, from 2001)

Proper breath control is critical to the aiming process.Breathing causes the body to move. This movement transfers to the rifle making it impossible to maintain proper sight picture. Breath control allows the Marine to fire the rifle at the moment of least movement

And this doesn't only apply to medium-long range but also short range engagements. Heres another exerpt on both as they have different procedures.

Medium-long

It is critical that Marines interrupt their breathing at a point of natural respiratory pause before firing a long-range shot or a precision shot from any distance. A respiratory cycle lasts 4 to 5 seconds. Inhaling and ex-haling each require about 2 seconds. A natural pause of 2 to 3 seconds occurs between each respiratory cycle. The pause can be extended up to 10 seconds. During the pause, breathing muscles are relaxed and the sights settle at their natural point of aim. To minimize movement, Marines must fire the shot during the natural respiratory pause. The basic technique is as follows:

Breathe naturally until the sight picture begins to settle.

Take a slightly deeper breath.

Exhale and stop at the natural respiratory pause.

Fire the shot during the natural respiratory pause.

Note

If the sight picture does not sufficientlysettle to allow the shot to be fired, resumenormal breathing and repeat the process.

short-medium

A Marine in a combat environment may not have the time to fire a shot during the natural respiratory pause.

It may be necessary to take several deep breaths before holding the breath. A Marine should not make an exaggerated effort to perform breath control. A natural respiratory pause will help stabilize the shooter’s sight picture. The basic technique is as follows:

Take a deep breath filling the lungs with oxygen.

Note

It may be necessary to take several deepbreaths quickly before holding the breath.

Hold the breath and apply pressure to the trigger.

Fire the shots

Here's the link to the manual if your interested. Breath control is mentioned on page 41 section 4-5. There's alot of other interesting stuff there as well if your interested. and here's even more manuals, and they all mention and emphasize the importance of breath control, even when firing pistols (even I was surprised at that)

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf

http://8reg.txsg.state.tx.us/Manuals8reg/FM3_22x9_Rifle_Marksmanship_Chan_4.9412913.pdf

All in all I personally think we need the sway and breathing of VBS2 and something like what you suggest but rather than an increased "dispersion" you would simply have a few seconds of increased sway after performing certain actions, to represent the fact that you must get into a comfortable position, align your sights, steady your aim etc. This is my exact idea from a few pages back.

On top of this VBS breathing and sway I think that it would be a good idea to make it so after certain movements your weapon sway increases for a brief period of time - maybe 2 -3 seconds. After moving, bringing up the sights, reloading, swiveling suddenly, the barrel would start to sway and would continue to sway less and less until 3 seconds is up and the default "vbs2" sway is all that is left. This sway would not be that significant however. anything closer than 50 metres would be easy to hit to make close combat easy and possible, but it would force you to wait a little while before lineing up accurate shots at range, which in my opinion is perfectly reasonable. Of course if you don't want to wait you can spray and pray or try and compensate for the sway, creating more inaccurate but suppressive fire like in real life.

[rye1 21]

http://au.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGkmCQ9IhPJEIAN6QL5gt.;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdTQ5NmU4BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0FVQzAwNF8x/SIG=12j8nsb77/EXP=1334404368/**http%3a//www.snipershide.com/UserFiles/Image/articles/Lesson4.pdf

A better one.

[metalcraze 290]

You have to think ahead on this point. If BIS added lots of sway in ArmA 3, breath control would just be another annoying button that everyone would press to make their aiming like all other FPS. Giving us Carpal Tunnel for no real benefit in realism or gameplay.

Try out JCOVE. That sway isn't any gamebreaker at all. Also the key to hold the breath in VBS2 by default is RMB. Same as it is in ArmA2. And it works well without the need to reassign - unlike in ArmA2 where it lowers shake by like 5% but if you hold it too much and the moment you release it - you weapon starts shaking like after running. Which isn't the case in VBS2 where soldier lets breath go on his own.

[Whirly 1]

For long range shooting simulation I think ACE 2 mod is going to be hard to beat, even with range finder and wind metre it's not easy to hit a moving target. hopefully it won't take too long before the ACE team create a similar mod for Arma 3.

When I want a real hardcore shooting challenge in Arma I try to hit moving targets without determining the range, wind direction, wind speed etc.

bQiRyomT_F0&context=C406b3c5ADvjVQa1PpcFODIfYh5xtQeNWMxX7Jna6wRmFovYP-R3g=

[twisted 127]

All in all I personally think we need the sway and breathing of VBS2 and something like what you suggest but rather than an increased "dispersion" you would simply have a few seconds of increased sway after performing certain actions, to represent the fact that you must get into a comfortable position, align your sights, steady your aim etc. This is my exact idea from a few pages back.

this exactly. and being under fire would make it longer to trickier to steady your aim.

and as mentioned as wlel before the breathing cycle is so important to simulate. like VSB2 (jcove lite) is good.

[metalcraze 290]

Yeah with VBS2 breathing the stress from suppresion fire will be better simulated. Right now it's just random aim shake - with VBS2 breathing - faster deeper breathing and thus faster, more noticeable 8-figure sway. You will be able to relatively predict where bullet goes if you will shoot back but at the same time it will also be realistic. Current random shaking isn't a good solution. Doesn't feel natural.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah with VBS2 breathing the stress from suppresion fire will be better simulated. Right now it's just random aim shake - with VBS2 breathing - faster deeper breathing and thus faster, more noticeable 8-figure sway. You will be able to relatively predict where bullet goes if you will shoot back but at the same time it will also be realistic. Current random shaking isn't a good solution. Doesn't feel natural.

The edges of the screen go black as well no? And it isn't only rounds that impact near you but also rounds that snap by you right? I think that is vital not only for human suppression but also for the ai suppression.

I agree with you twisted that being under fire should cause some kind of negative effect. Whether its faster deeper breathing like metalcraze said or your weapon takes longer to steady, or a bit of both suppression effects need to actually make you want to get down in and in cover somehow.

[twisted 127]

The edges of the screen go black as well no? And it isn't only rounds that impact near you but also rounds that snap by you right? I think that is vital not only for human suppression but also for the ai suppression.

I agree with you twisted that being under fire should cause some kind of negative effect. Whether its faster deeper breathing like metalcraze said or your weapon takes longer to steady, or a bit of both suppression effects need to actually make you want to get down in and in cover somehow.

a graphic treatment of being suppressed would be best as yo ustill can make the shot - you just need more skill and to keep your head.

blurring the screen would seem the simplest way with each bullet landing nearby affecting blur . i remember in an old version of ACE the rpk made a mad vibration when firing - and it was pretty hard to see where you were shooting exactly but still had a good general feel of the surroundings. that's to me a good thing.

[froggyluv 2130]

+1 for VBS2 style breathing/sway.

-1 for random dispersion of any sort

[metalcraze 290]

The edges of the screen go black as well no? And it isn't only rounds that impact near you but also rounds that snap by you right? I think that is vital not only for human suppression but also for the ai suppression.

I agree with you twisted that being under fire should cause some kind of negative effect. Whether its faster deeper breathing like metalcraze said or your weapon takes longer to steady, or a bit of both suppression effects need to actually make you want to get down in and in cover somehow.

The current "brighter screen"-suppression effect is OK, but VBS2 dark edges are good too, I have no real preference here though. And yeah - rounds that fly close nearby should also cause stress both to you and AI. I just hope that suppression for AI won't be just bigger shake but it will force them to drop on the ground/keep their head down because right now they think for several seconds before going prone even though everyone may fire at them.

[antoineflemming 14]

The current "brighter screen"-suppression effect is OK, but VBS2 dark edges are good too, I have no real preference here though. And yeah - rounds that fly close nearby should also cause stress both to you and AI. I just hope that suppression for AI won't be just bigger shake but it will force them to drop on the ground/keep their head down because right now they think for several seconds before going prone even though everyone may fire at them.

I can't stand the brighter screen suppression effect. It actually is not a suppression effect. It's a wounded effect. When you are hit, then your screen gets bright. But not when enemies are just shooting in your area. I'd rather the screen go red than the screen go bright when hit. I guess my eyes are just a little too sensitive. But, for a suppression effect, I'd like for the screen to blur or for the screen to shake, or some combination of the two.

[maturin 12]

No, the bright screen is a suppression effect. No question. It happens when bullets land close.

Your screen has always gone red from actual hits, and there is blood splatter since Eagle Wing was released. Soundmods with better voice cues make it even clearer.

When you get shot, there were probably some rounds that hit nearby, causing suppression effects, so that's what's confusing.

[antoineflemming 14]

No, the bright screen is a suppression effect. No question. It happens when bullets land close.

Your screen has always gone red from actual hits, and there is blood splatter since Eagle Wing was released. Soundmods with better voice cues make it even clearer.

When you get shot, there were probably some rounds that hit nearby, causing suppression effects, so that's what's confusing.

Ohhhhh.... ok. I always thought I was actually getting hit. Still, can't stand the bright screen. Would prefer blur and shaky screen over the "bright screen".

[maturin 12]

I like it. It's like a shot of adrenaline in the eyeballs, everything becoming suddenly more sharp and clear when you're inches from death.

[metalcraze 290]

Same.

[giorgygr 61]

I was wondering about the A.I.'s reaction to suppression effects.

About decisions as:"go prone" or "get away from harm" or "A.I.'s weapon sway(simulation of A.I.'s stress) should be related with A.I. unit's skill (and it's morale sub-section)

[maturin 12]

I'm not sure it's worthwhile making skill affect suppression effects. Because then fighting elite units would feel like fighting robotic AI instead of people. And we tend to see very heedless and suicidal behavior from poorly trained insurgents, where a soldier would sensibly take cover and 'be suppressed.' Part of being in a unit means not getting your head shot off and relying on your comrades to lay down counter fire and get you out of trouble.

Conversely, you don't need the slightest bit of training to hit the dirt when being shot at, so we shouldn't penalize low skill units that way.

[PuFu 4591]

Ohhhhh.... ok. I always thought I was actually getting hit. Still, can't stand the bright screen. Would prefer blur and shaky screen over the "bright screen".

you should have blur if you have PP on...

[-Coulum- 35]

I'm not sure it's worthwhile making skill affect suppression effects. Because then fighting elite units would feel like fighting robotic AI instead of people. And we tend to see very heedless and suicidal behavior from poorly trained insurgents, where a soldier would sensibly take cover and 'be suppressed.' Part of being in a unit means not getting your head shot off and relying on your comrades to lay down counter fire and get you out of trouble.

Conversely, you don't need the slightest bit of training to hit the dirt when being shot at, so we shouldn't penalize low skill units that way.

I agree that skill shouldn't make the chances of suppressing the ai lower or higer - this would result in special ops being killed because they are never suppressed and always exposed. It would be nice however to have it so:

The suppression radius of higher level units is smaller - maybe 2-3 metres, that way they take cover and hide when in serious trouble

The suppression radius of lower level units is larger - maybe 6-7 metres for a conscript - that way they will be easily suppressed even when not really in that much danger.

Higher level units suffer less aiming and spotting penalties while suppressed.

Lower level units suffer more aiming and spotting penalties while suppressed.

I think that would be great, but really I would be more than happy if ai could just go prone and suffer a temporary spotting and shooting penalty for a while when a round lands or passes by 2 or 3 metres from him regardless of level. that alone would be a huge improvement. right now suprression only works when hitting the ground half a metre from the ai and causes the ai rate of fire to practically drop to 1 round per minute when you are standing only 10 metres away. It looks stupid when it works and is too hard to trigger(I find it easier to shoot the AI than suppress them).

Suppressive fire of the ai, believe it or not is actually tied into this thread. If we make it so that human aiming is harder, and takes longer to perform accurately, people may want to shoot off quick inaccurate shots instead. But if the ai isn't really suppressable this will discourage them from doing this quick inaccurate firing because it won't really do anything besides lucky kills. People will still be more likely to do it than now, but alot of people will just take the time to make a good shot instead... and we will have yet another sniper fight instead of firefight. Now, if the ai were actually suppressable... I think you can already put the dots together yourself. People would realize that quick inaccurate suppressive fire may not kill but is quicker than aimed point fire and it keeps the ai pinned so the team can maneuver and destroy them. This will encourage people to perform suppressive fire and voila, we have much more realistic firefights.

In essence - Harder more realistic aiming + Suppressable AI/players = More realism in Firefights

[antoineflemming 14]

you should have blur if you have PP on...

But the screen still gets bright... anyway, it would really be good if AI could be suppressed. And it'd be good if, when you have AI suppressing enemy AI, you could kinda fix them to a location, like box them in. That's ultimately the kind of thing you should be able to do with suppression.

[liquidpinky 11]

Bit of rant but, get suppression to fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

It is a pain in the arse and the dumbasses at Dice stole the stupid idea for BF3 and wrecked it to.

Honestly, if you are being shot at and don't get into cover then expect to die real soon.

I don't need some silly gunshake or blurry screen to tell me that, it is common bloody sence.

A trained soldier will not shake like a week old puppy and they only get blurry vision when they are drunk and not when fired at.

Adrenaline actually make your vision sharper as well as your muscle control, supression effects are as far off the mark as the real thing as possible.

How about impairing vision until under fire, at least that would make it closer to reality?

WTF is the current obsession with suppression these days?

Edited April 17, 2012 by Liquidpinky
Still raging at people wanting a rediculous game mechanic, istead of putting it down like a rabid dog.

[maddogx 13]

Honestly, if you are being shot at and don't get into cover then expect to die real soon.

I don't need some silly gunshake or blurry screen to tell me that, it is common bloody sence.

A trained soldier will not shake like a week old puppy and they only get blurry vision when they are drunk and not when fired at.

The blur and shaky aim are probably more of a gameplay feature and less of a "realism" feature. I personally like it (both in Arma2 and BF3), but I can see why some people wouldn't.

However, in real life a soldier has a much higher incentive to stay in cover while under fire because he actually values his life - this is less the case when you're merely playing a game and controlling a digital avatar, which makes players much less "suppressable". Sure, you still don't want to die, but especially in respawn-enabled game modes the incentive to stay alive is a lot lower. This results in increased "running and gunning" and other risky (unrealistic) behaviour, because people know they'll be back in the fight soon anyway. I find this feature actually helps in that regard, even if it is a tad unrealistic.

WTF is the current obsession with suppression these days?

It's a valuable and much needed gameplay feature?