Foliage cover and drawing distance?

[fraczek 4]

If you will start to render grass around the projected point of your sniper optics this may look quite awkward since you may easily have a huge empty space between that point and you.

The real problem is that on Chernarus there's not much detail but grass so when engine stops rendering grass you end up with a lot of empty space. Dwarden once suggested to simply fill that empty space with random stuff like stones/bushes to make soldier barely distinguishable from the background which may work too. In fact VBS2 already has this. If you will download JCOVE-lite you will see this in action. Think empty takistani hills except filled with many many little stones visible far away. Really hard to spot a prone soldier even in such desert environment. A helmet/head looks like a yet another stone at that distance.

^^^ this. Didn't know it was already in VBS2.

[Whirly 1]

Having trouble getting my head around this draw distance conundrum, let me explain why. A recently released ARMA 3 screenshot shows a aircraft flying high above Lemnos, the veiw distance over the Island stretches for many square kilometres, yet the detail is amazing. Why is it that a similar effect cannot be acheived when veiwing through a scope?

[metalcraze 290]

That's how you will see Limnos through a scope too.

It's much more detailed than Chernarus when it comes to bushes and rocks (unfortunately no forests though)

[Whirly 1]

That's how you will see Limnos through a scope too.

It's much more detailed than Chernarus when it comes to bushes and rocks (unfortunately no forests though)

After veiwing this video

3AfDgCmhsyY&feature=related

I have discovered that the mosaic of different colors is what produces the illusion of detail, the illusion of depth, high and low spots, nooks and crannies. This disruptive patterning of color makes distant units much harder to see even at medium zoom and helps them 'blend' into the background. Why is the environment suddenly blandly colored by comparison when on max zoom? The plain coloring is the root of the problem.

[Atkins 10]

H&G can draw grass etc. to the horizon. No idea how they pull it off it but BI should definitely look in to it.

[BobcatBob 10]

OH. My. God. That game looks incredible! So glad I found out this existed!!!!!:):):):)

[Pulverizer 1]

H&G can draw grass etc. to the horizon. No idea how they pull it off it but BI should definitely look in to it.

LODs for those wheat fields that's for sure. Same trick was used by BIS to render large chunks of forests efficiently 10 years ago in OFP.

I'd like to see an actual high-res screenshot of H&G that shows off the far-vegetation. Not large indestructible wheat fields that are easy to optimize, but high-detail ground clutter. From what I can tell by that blurry video, I doubt there's anything revolutionary going on with the foliage.

[-Coulum- 35]

So what's the downside with using LODs for fields, grass etc. like H&G? Would it be possible to do in arma. If so it would be freaking amazing.

[metalcraze 290]

You can see that in H&G the wheat fields (and other scenery) are of much lower detail than what we have in ArmA even up close.

And it's impossible to tell from the video if far LODs aren't some blurry mess which would do more harm than good.

Of course the solution may be for ArmA3 is to render only some grass patches in the distance - which will still look better than empty ground but won't destroy videocards.

Edited March 3, 2012 by metalcraze

[CTCCoco 1]

You are registered since 2012 and you discovered this now?! lol.

[Defunkt 431]

If you will start to render grass around the projected point of your sniper optics this may look quite awkward since you may easily have a huge empty space between that point and you.

You aren't viewing/don't see the space between you and your point of focus. In fact I'd have thought the narrower FOV when zoomed would mean the engine could afford to render grass over a greater depth before and beyond your point of focus. That might change if we get 'Picture-in-Picture' scopes but performance costs are part of the eternal truth of 3D scopes and even then if a choice is required clutter at your point of focus has got to be more important than clutter in your periphery.

[Whirly 1]

I don't understand why it is that at long range,

http://wikiwiki.jp/arma2/?plugin=ref&page=ShackTac%20ArmA2%20TTP2%20Guide%2FCombined%20Arms%2FClose%20Air%20Support&src=i_cobra_at_altitude.jpg

medium range,

http://ultimateflashpoint.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/screen-6.jpg

and close range

http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/A/ArmA%20II/Bulk%20Viewers/PC_PS3_360/2009-05-06/2009.04.30.%20-%20ARMA%20II_chernarus_02_US--screenshot.jpg

there is no difficulty processing the large amounts of contrasting colors that create the appearance of detail and depth, but soon as we view the environment through a scope there is no longer a sharp disparity of colors.

http://i41.tinypic.com/33cltll.jpg

Edited March 3, 2012 by Whirly

[Defunkt 431]

Because at very long range (i.e. when flying at altitude) the satmap (essentially a photograph of the terrain) is of a high enough resolution to appear detailed and at very close range detailed clutter is drawn on top of this. It's the intermediate range (viewing through the optics) where the problems appear.

ArmA 3 reportedly has a higher resolution satmap and that seems apparent from the screenshots to date but while it will make things look better it's unlikely to offer enough detail to obscure a 3D character model sitting on top of the 'photograph' at the 300m - 1000m ranges where the problem is most evident.

[Whirly 1]

Perhaps at intermediate range the lifeless dreary 'template' background should be replaced with a speckled background flecked with contrasting colors, it would add a lot more character (an illusion of distant clutter) to the scene and would make it far more difficult to spot units at those distances.

[Dwarden 1125]

@whirly

you would need add noise pattern and more 'depth' clutter into the scene ...

there are several methods how that can be achieved and unfortunately they weren't used in A2/OA

'corn fields' and high grass in H&G is interesting but the question remainds if it can be used for grass anywhere anytime w/o performance overkill

definitely one of features i would like to see myself

[Whirly 1]

Dwarden would it be possible for modders to add noise pattern and more 'depth' clutter into the scene?

[Dwarden 1125]

there were some nice noise pattern shader mods for Oblivion, maybe also some exist for Fallout / Skyrim (not checked)

if there is more control over the shaders and post processing then yes, but i will not confirm nor deny it in relation to upcoming games

[Whirly 1]

Thanks mate.

[gammadust 12]

there are several methods how that can be achieved and unfortunately they weren't used in A2/OA

...hummmm...

[Dwarden 1125]

...hummmm...

remember time and manpower/reources are limited when developing games, so all is question of priorities and design decisions ...

one would do things differently if he could turn on the time machine ;)

[gammadust 12]

mine's a futuristic one... hope that whatever time machine comes up hummses us to neatly packed travel logs ;)

[On_Sabbatical 11]

I was thinking about a workaround: why not reducing the grass density with distance and keeping always the player hidden ;)

[dayglow 2]

I was thinking about a workaround: why not reducing the grass density with distance and keeping always the player hidden ;)

Just render 1 bush in front of the player?

[cm. 10]

mine's a futuristic one... hope that whatever time machine comes up hummses us to neatly packed travel logs ;)

LOL! I hope that is a joke haha

[boredgunner 1]

Anyway back to draw distance... ArmA 2 has the best terrain draw distance and a lovely draw distance slider. Now they just need to add a slider for vegetation draw distance and detail/texture draw distance so they can be equally good.