Take On: Hinds!

[max power 21]

It would be nice but it certainly isn't necessary to function with the hind in the game. From between 1 and 2 km I can put most of my rockets into one of those firebases you need to attack in that OEM mission. Let's call it a 50 x 50 m area. After a couple of salvos everything in there is dead, and I'm firing rockets from out of range of the zsu-23-2's at any rate. The biggest threat I've found in that game so far actually is tanks using their main guns on you (!!!)

Edited April 5, 2012 by Max Power

[Scorlhov 1]

It would be nice but it certainly isn't necessary to function with the hind.

IMO, the collimate gunsight is necessary (with trackir, i need to recenter my view at each time before firing), and it's a standard now in the flight sim/game world. There is no reason for TOH hind, who has so much potential, not have to have one :).

For the weapon computer system, it would be a nice addition to the realism.

The biggest threat I've found in that game so far actually is tanks using their main guns on you

Yes, the t72 is deadly with his target laser designator :)

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

I just made a devheaven ticket suggesting improving this.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/30073

Hi InstaGoat

Good initiative.

The system is very similar to the one on the SU-25 (The gunsight itself is the same, too.)

I think your are refering to Arma su-25, but in real life it's slighly different. Not use in Rl, only if WCS are out.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Scorlhov

[max power 21]

IMO, the collimate gunsight is necessary (with trackir, i need to recenter my view at each time before firing), and it's a standard now in the flight sim/game world. There is no reason for TOH hind, who has so much potential, not have to have one :).

For the weapon computer system, it would be a nice addition to the realism.

I agree. I was just saying that you can get good at shooting without it.

Yes, the t72 is deadly with his target laser designator :)

I was talking about the T-34s :( They have the most kills on me out of any unit... from long range!

BTW watch your image sizes pl0x.

[_YoYo_ 10]

The system is very similar to the one on the SU-25 (The gunsight itself is the same, too.) Once the laser is turned on, the crosshairs compensate for range and angle of attack, depending on the chosen weapons system. I think there are also CCRP modes for this sight system.

No it isnt. Gunsight of pilot in TOH:Hinds its ok for version of V, P. Only yellow/orange colour is too mutch + colimated.

More weapons / gunsight options can be used by weapon operator. For pilot its near ok now.

Quick serach:

(with modern avionics, but You can find to classic 24V video on YT from cocpit). Edited April 5, 2012 by _YoYo_

[Scorlhov 1]

Only yellow/orange colour is too mutch + colimated.

And a little too BIG....

[instagoat 133]

No it isnt. Gunsight of pilot in TOH:Hinds its ok for version of V, P. Only yellow/orange colour is too mutch + colimated.

More weapons / gunsight options can be used by weapon operator. For pilot its near ok now.

Quick serach:

(with modern avionics, but You can find to classic 24V video on YT from cocpit).

I´ve not found any documentation on that. I just found that the sight is the same type as in the SU-25 (For the pilot of the MI-24). It even has the indicator lights for the laser, so I assumed the pilot also has access to the targeting overlay for the sight. Are there any operations manuals for the MI-24s we have in TOH around that describe the operation of these sights for gunner/pilot so we can be sure?

I don´t know how much sense it´d make to fit a sight with all these features for the pilot, and then only have the emergency gunsight available to him. In that case, they could´ve just fitted a simpler, cheaper sight or saved the weight and added another type of useful equipment.

At any rate, what the sight in TOH needs at least is a cleanup (higher res texture and corrected colour), and it needs to be at optical infinity as any proper reflector sight.

It´s fair that some people are able to shoot their weapons without using the sights, I can´t do it. And I shouldn´t have to: the sights are there for a reason, and if you add combat capabillity to the sim, players should be able to use the proper aids in using these guns. Some rockets are just too precious to be eyeballed. Similarily, right now it´s pretty much guesswork to properly bomb with the hind. There are videos of Hinds bombing from level flight, using their laser sights and CCRP functionality. With the TOH Hinds, all you can pretty much do is dive bomb to get the eggs on target. Which, quite often, results in parts falling off because of excessive speed.

These features range from simple to complex, but I at least hope that the simple thing (properly collimating gunsights) will be implemented at some point. The advanced stuff really is a "Not necessary, but would be cool to have" kind of thing.

My two cents.

Edit: Video of an ASP-17 sight in operation (On SU-25). The sight on the pilots position of the Hinds V/P is an ASP-17V if my documentation is correct.

Edited April 5, 2012 by InstaGoat

[roberthammer 582]

Goat - i found this http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/optoelek3.htm - its in czech ,but the ASP-17V colimator looks same as the ingame hind

[Scorlhov 1]

but the ASP-17V colimator looks same as the ingame hind

Yes the gunsight is the same as in game (but collimate)

@InstaGoat

the symbology if the ASP-17V is not the same as ASP-17(su-25) like i said previously, at least for the gun/rocket mode. For the bombing mode, it's perhaps the same.

After some research, only the superhind has a laser designator. The hinds v/p have only a WCS (weapon computer system), a green cross appears (master arm on,, i guess) on the HUD to give us the aiming point, depending of the arms select (gun/rocket). We don't need to center this green cross. If the WCS is damaged we can use the gunsight. For the bombing mode it's a mystery :)

[hon0 10]

For the bombing mode it's a mystery :)

Stuka stYle :cool:

Edited April 7, 2012 by hon0

[Mr. Charles 22]

Has anyone tried the Taxiing feature for landings? I tried it a few times, but the result was nearly always unsatisfactory. I only pulled it off once and then it was pretty rough ;)

[instagoat 133]

Yes the gunsight is the same as in game (but collimate)

@InstaGoat

the symbology if the ASP-17V is not the same as ASP-17(su-25) like i said previously, at least for the gun/rocket mode. For the bombing mode, it's perhaps the same.

After some research, only the superhind has a laser designator. The hinds v/p have only a WCS (weapon computer system), a green cross appears (master arm on,, i guess) on the HUD to give us the aiming point, depending of the arms select (gun/rocket). We don't need to center this green cross. If the WCS is damaged we can use the gunsight. For the bombing mode it's a mystery :)

Hum. I know the superhind has a laser, but several websites state that Hinds have been equipped with laser designators.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mi-24.htm (Check the stats (for Hind-D). It is equipped with Low light TV, Laser Designator and FLIR. This information is making me suspicious though, I don´t think early hinds were equipped with thermal vision devices of any kind, so the laser designator entry may be wrong too.)

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-24.php (Here the entry particularily for the Hind-D mentions the USUP-24 gun system, with -range finding-. I think the whole point of a gunsight (even a gyroscopic one like the ASP-17, also introduced with the D version for the pilot only, it seems.) is to have a means to lay gunfire at range: so you need to know the range. What type of rangefinder is used doesn´t really matter, fact seems to be that there is a rangefinder present in all Hind versions with the double blister cockpits. This feature should at least be available to the gunner.)

Also, I know that the sight symbology for the MI-24 and the Su-25 are different: what I´m saying is that the sight is fully capable of displaying advanced target data (for the time). The pilot only has this sight fitted, as far as I can see from my documentation, replacing the previously used simple reflector sight (which was not gyroscopic from what I can find, and which wasn´t linked into the gun-laying computer, thus provided no targeting data.). Why would they give the pilot this advanced sight, and remove all the advantages it gives? It doesn´t seem to make any sense to me.

As far as the bombing goes, I would assume that there is a CCRP function for the gun computer. I´ve not found any videos of Hinds doing anything but level bombing. It doesn´t seem to have a dedicated level bombing sight (These were still bulky anyways, and the gunners pit is already full with all sorts of avionics for the guns and missle systems. The engineers would´ve made sure that they were able to use the features already developed for other craft (Mig-23 ground attack versions and Su-25 attack craft) in the Hind, if they wanted it to perform bombing missions.

I think the laser target designator label could be wrong though, more likely it´s a laser rangefinder only. The SU-25s/Mig-23s laser system is much beefier, and used to paint targets for the big laser guided missles. As far as I know, the Hind doesn´t support any guided missles other than those compatible with the Saclos system it is provided with (Shturm´s in the case of our Hinds, and the Atakas for the super Hind.), so the laser is probably of a different type.

Currently I´m trying to find out the right model designations, if the system really exists. Websites are contradictory and not an accurate source of information, it´d be much nicer to find out if there were books of authority around that could provide solid information. Does any recent Janes publication have this kind of data on the Hind?

Also thanks for the link Hammer, those are helpful pics!

Edit: Nevermind about the bombs. They are guided anyway (tab-lock on a target and they´ll home into it), so advanced bombing modes aren´t necessary. Not really realistic, but a compromise I guess (I suspect this has to do with the AI?)

Edited April 6, 2012 by InstaGoat

[Scorlhov 1]

@Max Power

Just a quick video to illustrate, the fixed gunsight inaccuracy. Mi-24P guns.

Better than words :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD0FASVZhXI&feature=youtu.be

[cygan 16]

Hum. I know the superhind has a laser, but several websites state that Hinds have been equipped with laser designators.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mi-24.htm (Check the stats (for Hind-D). It is equipped with Low light TV, Laser Designator and FLIR. This information is making me suspicious though, I don´t think early hinds were equipped with thermal vision devices of any kind, so the laser designator entry may be wrong too.)

There is NO any laser designators and any Low light TV or FLIR on Hind - D, W/V and P. We talking about typical versions. Meaby some upgrade version have but we could see that at phots on fuselage or cokpits.

Edited April 7, 2012 by cygan

[max power 21]

@Max Power

Just a quick video to illustrate, the fixed gunsight inaccuracy. Mi-24P guns.

Better than words :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD0FASVZhXI&feature=youtu.be

If you keep your head in the centre it's not that bad. It works for me. I blow up tanks with it.

[FOD 10]

when will this be out in the shops in the UK (not download) I never buy download versions prefer to have it in my hands even if I have to wait a bit longer

[twisted 127]

If you keep your head in the centre it's not that bad. It works for me. I blow up tanks with it.

TrackIR does make it hard to keep head still. maybe i need a custom config with a bigger deadzone.

[max power 21]

I just want to make it clear that I'm not arguing against a simulation of a reflex sight. I think that would be awesome, and I guess pretty essential to those lucky people who have 6dof. I was just saying it's possible to be fairly accurate without it. It's no replacement for a gun computer, though... except in il2. The P-51 had a gun computer and I was better without it... Then again, it did have proper parallax behaviour.

[hon0 10]

Four youtube Vid talking about the hind.

[Scorlhov 1]

Wow, looking at the video of this 17y/old Hind's game, make me thinks how poor is the actual toh-Hind

Please BIS, can you give some more love at the Hind (cockpit, avionic, navigation/targeting system)

Edited May 7, 2012 by Scorlhov

[Baraka 10]

Wow, looking at the video of this 17y/old Hind's game, make me thinks how poor is the actual toh-Hind

Please BIS, can you give some more love at the Hind (cockpit, avionic, navigation/targeting system)

May be OT but that´s the greatest Cockpit i´ve ever seen. All those Animations and Details make me cry.

[Pudenfuhrer 10]

Wow, looking at the video of this 17y/old Hind's game, make me thinks how poor is the actual toh-Hind

Please BIS, can you give some more love at the Hind (cockpit, avionic, navigation/targeting system)

Yep - seconded - I'm looking at ACE - hoping there's something in there that will tidy up some of the quirks.

On the subject - anyone else notice how wierd the behaviour of guided missile is? I can't select targets when they are selected, and as gunner aiming them with scope they go high everytime.

current workaround is to use the radio to order the gunner as a unit to target - rather than the crew "select /cycle target" commands.

But downside is there's no way of really knowing if they have targetted or not.

Why do I launch the missile also? I don't fire the cannon other than in manual, rockets - the gunner fires when I line it up, missiles - I fire them? But he targets them - but I can't select targets using the normal route.

Discuss!