God

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ June 12 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus is a huge part of the whole christian religion and the fact there is no evidence for god, who apparently despite being invisible, a state of mind, an all powerful magical entity or whatever, knocked up some chick who gave birth to what became known as the son of god.<span id='postcolor'>

no no no... Maria came up with that white lie to hide the fact that she was fucking around with half the town. Joseph, who was impotent would have known it wasn't his child, so Maria came up with that crazy story. That's what I think happened.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ June 12 2002,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ June 12 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus is a huge part of the whole christian religion and the fact there is no evidence for god, who apparently despite being invisible, a state of mind, an all powerful magical entity or whatever, knocked up some chick who gave birth to what became known as the son of god.<span id='postcolor'>

no no no... Maria came up with that white lie to hide the fact that she was fucking around with half the town. Joseph,  who was impotent would have known it wasn't his child, so Maria came up with that crazy story. That's what I think happened.<span id='postcolor'>

That would be a very beleivable scenario i wish i mentioned that now

[Hardliner 0]

I never understood this "Jesus died to set us free" stuff. So does this mean that everyone who died before him would not be freed?

I don't buy it.

[advocatexxx 0]

How does someone's death provide salvation for others ?  That would clearly signify that dying on purpose is somewhat of a good thing.  Why didn't he overthrow the Roman rule and divide the provinces amongst people with free rule ?  Surely he was/is the son of God then he must also posess great powers.  He could heal with the touch of his palm, why not bring down the opressive Roman rule and truly set these people free.

The only thing he has caused though are many, many religious wars fought from thereon.  I would hardly call that "salvation"

Also, what are we to make of "Jesus love you" ? He certainly doesn't give us any hint of his current existence, so how could we possibly even know that he loves us ? Are we expected to blindly believe in these divine emotional relationships which bear no fact, proof or any other considerable array of properties which could serve to unveil them ?

I admit, I have watched many shows and read many articles on "after death experiences" as they've come to be called. People venturing out of their bodies, and then being pulled into some sort of intense light. Since pretty much every documented after-death experience seems to be described in very much the same way, then how is it possible that the physically dead brain is able to record these experiences in its memory so that later, when the person is brought back into consciousness they are able to recall them ? Could it be that those out-of-body-near-death experiences are but manifestations of our dying brain ? We already know that even after out heart stops pounding, the brain maintains its functions for about 8-10 minutes afterwards. Yet the brain continues to be the most mysterical part of our body. Perhaps some brain functions (undetectable by us) remain in function longer than 8-10 minutes.

On the contrary, this may also be where science and God meet, and thus we have a hard time explaining it.

I saw a show on the Discovery channel where a woman had to be put to death in order to remove a lump of swollen blood vessel from near her brain. They had to stop her heart, pump most of the blood out of her and then split her skull open and operate. The whole procedure took about 10 hours. She was also somewhat frozen during the procedure. Yet she claims to have heard the conversation during the surgery. She claims to have been outside of her body, staring down at herself. She claims to have seen the tools the doctors used, and as such described them in detail, even the special split trays they use to place their instruments into.

How could she have described the conversation, the tools and other objects in detail when she was long dead. Her brain was also clinically dead as the doctors said. She was brought into the room in her sleep and awakened in another room after the procedure, thus she couldn't have seen those tools prior or after the surgery.

Her tale was really scary in many ways, especially when she told it as if it really happened.

Maybe it's all science and no God, and maybe there are things which we are so afraid of and unable to explain that we say "if science doesn't allow it, then it's impossible".

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

It is not God's fualt that man sinned. God said to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of good and evil, I believe thats what it was called. A serphent diceved Eve and she ate the fruit God told her not to and Adam also ate it and thats where men's troubles started. God may not have knewn what was going to happen, but If he didn't know it was becuase he chose not too know. God can see the furture if he wants or chose not see it, God loves you but he hates evil and for defeat over sin he sent us Jesus,his son and Jesus is the way to Heaven! Look at my post before to see how to get to Heaven.

[nordin dk 0]

I presume the idea of Christ dying for our sins, is that he would somehow purge mankinds of the sins it had comitted.

So that his "father" would not tally them up and doom all of us to life in hell.

To accept Christ means that you accept the notion that you're a sinner, and that God is vengeful. Why else would you need Christ to 'take the blame'.

Anyway...

...this is quickly developing into a about the historical correctness of the bible, which is a ridiculous debate. Both on the side of those that defend it and those who attack it, for neither accept the fact that the symbolic value of the bible eliminates the need for any historical accuracy. Would you claim the stories of the brothers Grimm to be historically incorrect? No! - but they still teach us important things about life.

What is important really, is the power of mythology, the relative ease with which mankind adapts a religion and the psychological consequence of choosing to believe in a higher power.

And to everyone raised in a "single-religion" environment, I can only say. Read as much as possible about other religions, and the sooner you will realise that your religion is not the one. This is important. Very.

[Guest]

To conclude this God debate, let us all sit down and pray.

Repeat after me:

Our Denoir, who art in forum,

Hallowed be thy Avtar.

Thy moderatorship come.

In Offtopic as it is in General.

Give us this day our daily thread.

And forgive us our flames, As we forgive those who flame against us.

And lead us not to "happy website", But deliver us from Wobble.

For thine is the Forum, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.

Amen.  

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 12 2002,23:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Thy moderatorship come.

In Offtopic as it is in General.

<span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>NEVER!</span>

[ale2999 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 12 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not God's fualt that man sinned. God said to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of good and evil, I believe thats what it was called. A serphent diceved Eve and she ate the fruit God told her not to and Adam also ate it and thats where men's troubles started. God may not have knewn what was going to happen, but If he didn't know it was becuase he chose not too know. God can see the furture if he wants or chose not see it, God loves you but he hates evil and for defeat over sin he sent us Jesus,his son and Jesus is the way to Heaven! Look at my post before to see how to get to Heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

finally some1 that agrees with me. Well Duke, ppl are sceptic nowadays, but God can still do a miracle for you all, I will pray for you all.

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ale2999 @ June 12 2002,09:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 12 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not God's fualt that man sinned. God said to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of good and evil, I believe thats what it was called. A serphent diceved Eve and she ate the fruit God told her not to and Adam also ate it and thats where men's troubles started. God may not have knewn what was going to happen, but If he didn't know it was becuase he chose not too know. God can see the furture if he wants or chose not see it, God loves you but he hates evil and for defeat over sin he sent us Jesus,his son and Jesus is the way to Heaven! Look at my post before to see how to get to Heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

finally some1 that agrees with me. Well Duke, ppl are sceptic nowadays, but God can still do a miracle for you all, I will pray for you all.<span id='postcolor'>

i agree

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 12 2002,04:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To conclude this God debate, let us all sit down and pray.

Repeat after me:

Our Denoir, who art in forum,

Hallowed be thy Avtar.

Thy moderatorship come.

In Offtopic as it is in General.

Give us this day our daily thread.

And forgive us our flames, As we forgive those who flame against us.

And lead us not to "happy website", But deliver us from Wobble.

For thine is the Forum, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.

Amen.  

<span id='postcolor'>

bravo!! bravo!! *claps and hollars*

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 12 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not God's fualt that man sinned. God said to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of good and evil, I believe thats what it was called. A serphent diceved Eve and she ate the fruit God told her not to and Adam also ate it and thats where men's troubles started. God may not have knewn what was going to happen, but If he didn't know it was becuase he chose not too know. God can see the furture if he wants or chose not see it, God loves you but he hates evil and for defeat over sin he sent us Jesus,his son and Jesus is the way to Heaven! Look at my post before to see how to get to Heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

I have read the bible, you know, because what is in it still affects the world very much. And all you're doing is quoting what it says. Apples and serpents, blah blah. The point is, if there is an omnipotent god, free will cannot exist. If god is not omnipotent, the basis of christianity sort of falls off. But I don't care.

Man is capable of accomplishing many things by himself. And we don't need any gods or devils to push us along. Why do you think a hypothetical god has a right to judge us, his creations? "Judge not, lest thee be judged thyself", like the bible likes to say.

[Hilandor 1]

yes i also think the bible is a waste of time oh and ive read it too with my then, religous mum as a kid

and if u want a good book with murders sex violence and some special effects then read it

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 13 2002,08:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Judge not, lest thee be judged thyself", like the bible likes to say.<span id='postcolor'>

And God has actually violated all his own commandments.

That's why I say; if God ever existed, he had to burn himself at the stake for violation of the universal laws

If you want a good example of how FUCKED UP some christians can be, look at this site:

http://www.hom.net/~angels/

That guy is a total psychopath and he uses an ancient tome to back up his arguments. Such stuff can really get my piss boiling.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ June 13 2002,10:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want a good example of how FUCKED UP some christians can be, look at this site:

http://www.hom.net/~angels/

That guy is a total psychopath and he uses an ancient tome to back up his arguments. Such stuff can really get my piss boiling.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, he might be a psychopath, but he is logical. His main statements "god does not love everyone", "there is no free will" and "god cannot be judged and can do whatever he wants" make up a pretty nice logical construct. He claims that god has preset who will sin and who will not, who will go to hell and who to heaven and that god hates some people and loves some people. I admit that if such a god existed, it would explain the way the world is. This god would be petty, jealous and full of himself. The question is whether this kind of god (a cruel monster) is worth of worship or belief?

I say if god is like that, I'd rather believe and hope he does not exist, because he would be the last thing mankind needs.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hardliner @ June 12 2002,219)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I never understood this "Jesus died to set us free" stuff. So does this mean that everyone who died before him would not be freed?

I don't buy it.<span id='postcolor'>

It's the same principle terrorist organisations use to train their suicide bombers....

just another way in whioch religion can fuck up the world with all its bollox

[DarkLight 0]

This guy said, ", when the person to be killed is innocent. If a person is innocent, neither I nor you, nor the government should ever put him to death. " about the death penalty.

The problem is that most of the ppl who get executed are innocent. Hmmm, yeah, death penalty isn't wrong! *sigh*

I can really get annoyed by ppl like that, it's ok if you believe in God or whatever you believe in but some people just go a bit too far. I also hate the ppl that really want you to believe in God, they keep nagging about it that you'll go to hell and stuff like that. Sheesh man, i won't say bad stuff about your religion if you'll stop saying bad stuff about what i believe!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

So whats the explanation for the universe? Was there just a "big bang" and it was created? Well maybe so, but the Big Bang happedn becuase God had it happen that way. How can you not realize there is a higher being? Look all around you and you can see al that God has created. Hell is a horrible place and if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your life you will go to hell and burn for eternity, but by asking Jesus into your life you will be granted the gift of GOD which is eternal life.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 13 2002,16:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So whats the explanation for the universe? Was there just a "big bang" and it was created? Well maybe so, but the Big Bang happedn becuase God had it happen that way. How can you not realize there is a higher being? Look all around you and you can see al that God has created. Hell is a horrible place and if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your life you will go to hell and burn for eternity, but by asking Jesus into your life you will be granted the gift of GOD which is eternal life.<span id='postcolor'>

This is what pisses me off about religious people -- when they FORCE their own BELIEFS on everyone else, gospeling how they will burn in hell (and hell is actually just a poor spin-off from the Wicca religion, which existed 1000s years before that little skinny carpenter faggot got nailed to the wood)

MY GOD IS HAS A BIGGER DICK THAN YOUR GOD!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I am not forceing my religon on you, I am just stating the truth. If you don't believe me then I really feel bad for you becuase we will all meet God on the day if judgemnet and if God sees that you have accept Christ into your life you will go to Heaven and if you He sees that you havent accept him he will say "depart from me for I never knew you".

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 13 2002,08:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have read the bible, you know, because what is in it still affects the world very much. And all you're doing is quoting what it says. Apples and serpents, blah blah. The point is, if there is an omnipotent god, free will cannot exist. If god is not omnipotent, the basis of christianity sort of falls off. But I don't care.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ach, you are wrong!

Even if God is omnipotent, it does not mean that he interferes everywhere and all the time.

In theory, he could have created man with a free will, and then left us to see what would happen.

But that he would then punish us for sinning, is like letting your parakeet of the cage and then punishing it for shitting on the armchair

But generally speaking, free will is a difficult thing to imagine, if you have a view of the world that's is based on traditional linear thinking.

Where does an idea come from?

Does every idea and decision arise from a physical need. or is there such a thing as independent inspiration -  a sudden leap of faith in your brain synapses connecting beforehand unrelated items.

Can you train you brain to think original ideas?

I think that free will is an illusion wether you believe in a god or not.

Anyone who has discovered they're adults, but still have little control of the circles they run in, will know what I'm saying.

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not forceing my religon on you, I am just stating the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

Truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. This is a non-Euclidean continuum. No absolute truth exists.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

This is simply a copy-paste job from an atheist FAQ - I think it's healthier to post this rather than putting words on my own irritation with people who "know it's true".

(Quotes within the quotes are meant as questions)

"Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.

There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.

"Those weren't real believers. They just claimed to be believers as some sort of excuse."

This is rather like the No True Scotsman fallacy.

What makes a real believer? There are so many One True Religions it's hard to tell. Look at Christianity: there are many competing groups, all convinced that they are the only true Christians. Sometimes they even fight and kill each other. How is an atheist supposed to decide who's a real Christian and who isn't, when even the major Christian churches like the Catholic Church and the Church of England can't decide amongst themselves?

In the end, most atheists take a pragmatic view, and decide that anyone who calls himself a Christian, and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his actions, should be considered a Christian. Maybe some of those Christians are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends -- but surely if the Bible can be so readily used to support un-Christian acts it can't be much of a moral code? If the Bible is the word of God, why couldn't he have made it less easy to misinterpret? And how do you know that your beliefs aren't a perversion of what your God intended?

If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible, then why should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say-so? Sorry, but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so, we must call him a Christian.

"Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned. But since nobody has ever proved that God does not exist, it must be very unlikely that more basic religious beliefs, shared by all faiths, are nonsense."

The commonality of many basic religious beliefs is hardly surprising, if you take the view that religion is a product of society. From that viewpoint, religions have borrowed ideas which contribute to a stable society -- such as respect for authority figures, a prohibition against murder, and so on.

In addition, many common religious themes have been passed on to later religions. For example, it has been suggested that the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament actually have their roots in Hamurabi's code.

The claim that because something hasn't been proved false, it's less likely to be nonsense, does not hold. As was pointed out earlier in this dialogue, positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much harder to disprove than negative ones. Nobody has ever proved that unicorns don't exist, and there are many stories about them, but that doesn't make it unlikely that they are myths.

It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than it is to hold a positive assertion by default. Of course, "weak" atheists may argue that asserting nothing is better still."

Full story here:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html#atheisms

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 13 2002,16:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not forceing my religon on you, I am just stating the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

That in it self is a contradiction. You are patronizing wildly and it's actually a direct insult to us who think your religion is bullshit.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I not forceing my religon on you, I am just stating the TRUTH about hwta will happend if you accept Christ and what happend if you do not.