Does Pakistan really have what it takes to fight the US?

[PELHAM 10]

You know yourself that it is not quite easy the get hands on CIA papers to have some proof but signs and evidence is ans was all over the newspapers...you can still gooogle it. One side claims this, one sind claims that...what persists is the doubts and for sure in such cases the truth lies in the middle of it.

The CIA supported the mujahedin via Pakistan and Pakistan supported the Taliban, a mujahedin group... now sum it up.

So you have no proof at all for what you say? I sum it up - coincidence. It's well established history that the US cut all funding to the mujahideen after the Soviets left, there is documented evidence for that. The Taliban was and is a Pakistani created and funded organisation that emerged 6 years after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan. If you have proof that the US funded and created the Taliban - please post it.

Edited December 6, 2011 by PELHAM

[Beagle 684]

So you have no proof at all for what you say? I sum it up - coincidence. It's well established history that the US cut all funding to the mujahideen after the Soviets left, there is documented evidence for that. The Taliban was and is a Pakistani created and funded organisation that emerged 6 years after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan. If you have proof that the US funded and created the Taliban - please post it.

If you have any proof against it please post it! All I can do is read my newpapers and journals and remeber what I read there a few years later. Today I cant get over the impression that a lot of people can't rember the news stories from 10 years ago anymore.

I really like the unedited RAMBO III end credits ;)

Do you remeber the ogininal text there before it was edited in 2001 ?

"Dedicated to the the brave mujaheddin fighters in Afghanistan."

Thats how perception changes. Revisionism anyone? When someone fels the need to edit a Movie like rambo III for political reasonm, you can be sure ther eis even more "edited" including history.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Beagle

[stgn 39]

If you have any proof against it please post it! All I can do is read my newpapers and journals and remeber what I read there a few years later. Today I cant get over the impression that a lot of people can't rember the news stories from 10 years ago anymore.

I really like the unedited RAMBO III end credits ;)

Do you remeber the ogininal text there before it was edited in 2001 ?

"Dedicated to the the brave mujaheddin fighters in Afghanistan."

Thats how perception changes.

You can't prove a negative.

[abs 2]

The Taliban was and is a Pakistani created and funded organisation that emerged 6 years after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan.

You can't prove a negative.

Pretty sure he's asking for proof for this statement, and not the negative of his own.

Abs

[PELHAM 10]

The problem here is that Beagle thinks the Mujahideen and the Taliban are the same thing. They are not. It was actually Al-Queda that developed from the Mujahideen and grew more extreemist after 1989 with Saudi Arabian funding and extreme Wahabist doctrine.

What occurred after the US cut all funding for Afghanistan in 1989 was a civil war funded by Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Read up on Operation Cyclone:

The U.S. shifted its interest from Afghanistan after the withdrawal of Soviet troops. American funding of Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and his Hezbi Islami party was cut off immediately.[35] The U.S. also reduced its assistance for Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

In October 1990, U.S. President George H. W. Bush (Senior) refused to certify that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear explosive device, triggering the imposition of sanctions against Pakistan under the Pressler Amendment (1985) in the Foreign Assistance Act. This disrupted the second assistance package offered in 1987 and discontinued economic assistance and military sales to Pakistan with the exception of the economic assistance already on its way to Pakistan. Military sales and training programs were abandoned as well and some of the Pakistani military officers under training in the U.S. were asked to return home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

Al-Queda was the group of foreign fighters that developed from the Mujahideen. They had lots of US cash left after the war to fund their activities.

The U.S. says that all of its funds went to native Afghan rebels and denies that any of its funds were used to supply Osama bin Laden or foreign Arab mujahideen. Nonetheless, U.S. support for the native Afghan mujahideen contributed to the radical Islamization of Afghanistan as well as the weakening and near-disintegration of the Afghan state, which ultimately led to the Taliban takeover of most of the country in 1996.

The Taliban was a Pakistani ISI product and most of it's recruits came from the religious schools in Pakistan and this continues today. Some of the Taliban leadership were part of the Mujahideen during the Soviet Occupation.

Edited December 6, 2011 by PELHAM

[Beagle 684]

The problem here is that Beagle thinks the Mujahideen and the Taliban are the same thing. They are not. It was actually Al-Queda that developed from the Mujahideen and grew more extreemist after 1989 with Saudi Arabian funding and extreme Wahabist doctrine.

What occurred after the US cut all funding for Afghanistan in 1989 was a civil war funded by Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Read up on Operation Cyclone:

The U.S. shifted its interest from Afghanistan after the withdrawal of Soviet troops. American funding of Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and his Hezbi Islami party was cut off immediately.[35] The U.S. also reduced its assistance for Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

In October 1990, U.S. President George H. W. Bush (Senior) refused to certify that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear explosive device, triggering the imposition of sanctions against Pakistan under the Pressler Amendment (1985) in the Foreign Assistance Act. This disrupted the second assistance package offered in 1987 and discontinued economic assistance and military sales to Pakistan with the exception of the economic assistance already on its way to Pakistan. Military sales and training programs were abandoned as well and some of the Pakistani military officers under training in the U.S. were asked to return home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

Al-Queda was the group of foreign fighters that developed from the Mujahideen. They had lots of US cash left after the war to fund their activities.

The U.S. says that all of its funds went to native Afghan rebels and denies that any of its funds were used to supply Osama bin Laden or foreign Arab mujahideen. Nonetheless, U.S. support for the native Afghan mujahideen contributed to the radical Islamization of Afghanistan as well as the weakening and near-disintegration of the Afghan state, which ultimately led to the Taliban takeover of most of the country in 1996.

PELHAM the problem here is that you think of Mudschahid as organisation. Mudschahid are everwhere where ever the holy war Dschihad is fought, Georgia, Bosnia Afghanistan and consequently also in Iraq and Pakistan...and soon in Iran albeit the Persian do not share the panarabic traditions. The Taliban are just that, Mudschahid in the DschihÄd. The individuals have not changed nor have the aims, no matter what names you give them. Edited December 6, 2011 by Beagle

[PELHAM 10]

PELHAM the problem here is that you think of Mudschahid as organisation. Mudschahid are everwhere where ever the holy war Dschihad is fought, Georgia, Bosnia Afghanistan and consequently also in Iraq and Pakistan...and soon in Iran albeit the Persian do not share the panarabic traditions. The Taliban are just that, Mudschahid in the DschihÄd. The individuals have not changed nor have the aims, no matter what names you give them.

Blatantly wrong, I use the names they give themselves, they have different leadership and different sources of funding, different interpretations of Islam and different political loyalties.

This is illustrated by the fact that as soon as they stop fighting the US, Serbs or Russians, they immediately start fighting each other.

Dropped the argument that the US created and funded the Taliban?

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Beagle

I refer you to the original thread on the subject:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=72821

As PELHAM says Al Qaida are a Wahhabi faction IMHO and the opinion of many Muslims it is questionable whether they are even muslim.

It is a common strategic error to become paranoid about groups you are oposed to and their reach. Ascribing all muslims or even all muslim radical groups to a single designation is neither helpful or correct.

Focus is all in such fights an un nuanced combatant is inherently paranoid and will soon be at war with the whole world and thus loose.

Kind Regards walker

[Baff1 0]

What I don't understand is why they're simultaneously harboring and fighting the terrorists. Maybe a Paki civil war is more likely.

A Paki civil war is only ever minutes away and always has been.

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Of course. Overthrowing Middle Eastern governments that actually sponsor terror is dangerous.

Nuclear armed ones with massive shared populations in my country is very dangerous indeed.

You know what a fifth column is I suppose? You remember 9/11?

We're not losing London to fight your wars.

Especially not when you far more guilty of sponsoring terorism here than Pakistan has ever been.

If you want to fight them, you will do it without us and harping on about terrorism isn't going to get you anywhere at all with us of all people.

[HyperU2 11]

True I guess they haven't blown up anything in London in a few years.

[Baff1 0]

Have they blown up anything in London at all ever then?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Baff1

[droogs 1]

Have they blown up anything in London at all ever then?

@Baff1

From your post , I will presume that you are not a UK national and are probably therefore unaware that during the 2005 G8 summit (held in Scotland) London was subjected to several bombings on 7 July 2005. In these attacks 52 people were murdered by people claiming to be jihadists. They were on the whole British born nationals but of Pakistani descent.

There are several sources you can use includding the BBC Al Jizeraa etc to find out more.

---------- Post added at 19:47 ---------- Previous post was at 19:18 ----------

Back to the thread. Pakistan is fighting the USA. It is conducting socio-political and economic "warfare" against the US for regional dominance. Pakistan finds itself in a very unenviable position.

She finds herself surrounded by two extremely powerful and ideologically opposed Nation states. India to the East, a nation that outnumbers her by 7/1 and Iran to the West, a shi' ite muslim state that has pretensions of granduer, who although is currently looking westwards (within the middle east) to increase it's heggemony could at any point turn round and cause a bit of a problem to say the least.

Therefore Pakistan is attempting to increase its chances by controling the region where-ever she can. This of course is leading to clashes with the current US administraions desire to control that part of the world. Pakistans relation with the US is more a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and is a marriage for public(world opinion) image convienience more than anything else. It should also be remember that the military in Pakistan are not just a buch of squaddies defending the country but a rather large corporate entity with its fingers in many commercial pies. Therefore Pakistan has too much to lose in any shooting war with the US and will use all other available means it can muster to destabalise US efforts while appearing to support them in public and privately attempting to bolster its own position

[Baff1 0]

I am a UK national.

And I am indeed aware that the British terrorists in 7/7 had Paki parents.

I note however that it was not their parents who did the bombings.

Nor do I feel any great sense that they were encouraged into these mass murders by their parents in any way.

So it would be a very grave mistake indeed to blame Pakistan for what was essentially home grown terrorism commmited by Brits in response to our American led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Should we attack Pakistan to please the Americans, we would then expose ourselves to very much more of the same kind of domestic terrorism but with one critical difference.

Pakistan might start helping them.

And Pakistan has nukes.

They haven't attacked us before.

We are incredably vulnerable to fifth columnism from our domestic population with Pakistani heritage and family ties.

And why would we want to alienate our citisens, turn them against us, just to please a load of paki bashing foreigners?

We wouldn't.

Our citisens come first.

Paki bashers are social pariahs in this country.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Baff1

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I pointed out in the original thread, incidentally the threads should be merged IMHO, Al Qaeda based terrorism is not really Muslim hence most of the people killed by Al Qaeda have been Muslim.

Al Qaeda terrorism is mainly about Wahhabism and seems more linked to state actors: the Pakistan ISI and Saudi Arabian foreign policy.

Hence yet another Attack on Mosques this time in Kabul earlier this week it one of hundreds. It is also notable that the Afghan Taliban condemned the attack.

It highlights that Al Qaeda is not really a Muslim organisation it just claims Muslim support that in reality is does not have, then other players use that claim of being Muslim as a means to pursue their own political agenda.

Kind Regards walker

Edited December 8, 2011 by walker

[PELHAM 10]

So it would be a very grave mistake indeed to blame Pakistan for what was essentially home grown terrorism commited by Brits

Pakistan played a major role in the 7th July attacks - some of the bombers attended training camps there and in Afghanistan to learn their trade. Mohammad Sidique Khan leader of the 7/7 cell learned bomb-making at the Malakand training camp in Pakistan (2001).

Pakistan's extremely relaxed attitude towards terrorist groups and training camps on their soil means they must share some blame for every major terrorist attack in the past 15 years. Even today they are very reluctant to arrest terrorists or shut down training camps and extremist schools. Can we blame them? Yes we can! If you watched the series 'Secret Pakistan' earlier in the year it's obvious exactly who they are interested in helping. People question why the US never informed Pakistan of the bin Laden raid. It's because the US had several years experience of Pakistani officials tipping off members of Al Queda and other terrorists who were due to be arrested.

On 18 July 2005, the Pakistani government released video footage of Khan arriving at Karachi airport on 19 November 2004 with Shehzad Tanweer, another of the London bombers, on Turkish Airlines flight TK 1056. Khan and Tanweer stayed in Pakistan until 8 February 2005, then flew back to London together. A third member of the London group, 18-year-old Hasib Hussain, arrived in Karachi on 15 July 2004 from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on flight SV714.

The 7/7 bombers were trained, funded and controlled by groups in Pakistan and the Pakistani authorities ignored it. The intelligence and forensic trail from many other bombings, attempted bombings and plots also leads back to Pakistan. Look at Operation Crevice from 2004, the previous year, the participants sourced materials and received training in Pakistan. Three weeks ago, four men were arrested in Birmingham on suspicion of travelling to Pakistan to undertake terrorist training and of raising funds for terrorist purposes.

The 2006 Waziristan Accord between the government of Pakistan and Tribal and militant groups resident in the Waziristan area, has some choice lines:

Details of the accord

-The Government agrees to stop air and ground attacks against militants in Waziristan.

- Militants are to cease cross-border movement into and out of Afghanistan.

- Foreigners (foreign jihadists) in North Waziristan will have to leave Pakistan but "those who cannot leave will be allowed to live peacefully, respecting the law of the land and the agreement" (WTF does this mean?)

- Area check-points and border patrols will be manned by a tribal force. Pakistan Army forces will withdraw from control points.

- Militants will not enter agencies adjacent to this agency (the agency of North Waziristan).

- Both sides will return any captured weapons, vehicles, and communication devices.

- The Government will release captured militants and will not arrest them again. (WTF yet again!)

Waziristan is the area where all the US drone attacks occur. You will frequently hear the Pakistani Government protesting about "attacks on it's soil". Err.....whose soil? Pakistan has effectively signed away control of Waziristan and that is the region where all the training occurs for the Taliban and groups interested in terrorism against western targets. So when the Pakistani Government protest about attacks there, on behalf of who or what, is the protest being made?

Edited December 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

On 18 July 2005, the Pakistani government released video footage of Khan arriving at Karachi airport on 19 November 2004 with Shehzad Tanweer, another of the London bombers, on Turkish Airlines flight TK 1056. Khan and Tanweer stayed in Pakistan until 8 February 2005, then flew back to London together. A third member of the London group, 18-year-old Hasib Hussain, arrived in Karachi on 15 July 2004 from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on flight SV714.

Anders Behring Breivik was seen in Norway before before 22 July 2011. Does this make Norway a supporter of terrorists?

The 7/7 bombers were trained, funded and controlled by groups in Pakistan and the Pakistani authorities ignored it. The intelligence and forensic trail from many other bombings, attempted bombings and plots also leads back to Pakistan. Look at Operation Crevice from 2004, the previous year, the participants sourced materials and received training in Pakistan. Three weeks ago, four men were arrested in Birmingham on suspicion of travelling to Pakistan to undertake terrorist training and of raising funds for terrorist purposes.

Sources please.

Waziristan is the area where all the US drone attacks occur. You will frequently hear the Pakistani Government protesting about "attacks on it's soil". Err.....whose soil? Pakistan has effectively signed away control of Waziristan and that is the region where all the training occurs for the Taliban and groups interested in terrorism against western targets. So when the Pakistani Government protest about attacks there, on behalf of who or what, is the protest being made?

And that justify kills of 18 Pakistani citizens?

Back on on-topic:

I don't think there will be any war because Pakistani just don't have enough power to counter USA.

Edited December 9, 2011 by batto
no offense

[PELHAM 10]

Anders Behring Breivik was seen in Norway before before 22 July 2011. Does this make Norway a supporter of terrorists?

Sources please.

And that justify kills of 18 Pakistani citizens?

No because Norway does not have terrorist training camps on it's soil, It's army and security forces do not fund, train and give sanctuary to terrorists and it has not signed over part of it's territory to militant groups that attack neighbouring countries. Pakistan does all of this - Pakistani president Asif Zardari and former President Gen. Pervez Musharraf have admitted that Pakistan does have areas which provide safe havens to militants:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/5779916/Pakistani-president-Asif-Zardari-admits-creating-terrorist-groups.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11474618

Al-Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Omar, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Sipah-e-Sahaba, JKLF, Taliban, Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami, Jalaluddin Haqqani, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Chinese Islamic Militants, Moroccan Islamic Militants all have offices and training camps in Pakistan.

In July 2010, British Prime Minsiter David Cameron accused the Pakistani government of double standards: "We cannot tolerate in any sense the idea that this country is allowed to look both ways and is able, in any way, to promote the export of terror, whether to India or whether to Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world." President Obama in 2009 called Waziristan “the most dangerous place in the world.â€

Leading terrorists such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, Abu Zubaydah, Abu Laith al Libi and Sheikh Said Masri, Zabi uk-Taifi have all been captured or killed inside Pakistan.

Sources??? It's well established history, have you been hiding under a rock for the last 12 years? Sources - start with these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_state_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1254773,00.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_pakistan-s-isi-sponsors-kashmiri-militant-groups-fbi_1568064

http://vinienco.com/2011/09/27/chinese-muslim-militants-training-in-pakistan/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Sidique_Khan

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317620/Eight-German-Taliban-terrorists-killed-US-missile-strike-Pakistan.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11777251

Books to read:

A to Z of Jehadi Organizations in Pakistan by Muhammad Amir Rana,

The Fluttering Flag of Jehad by Amir Mir, Islam and Education

Conflict and Conformity in Pakistan’s Madrassahs by Saleem H. Ali,

Descent into Chaos by Ahmed Rashid

"And that justify kills of 18 Pakistani citizens?" Yes it does....If Pakistan continues with these activities the regrettable deaths of bystanders are on it's hands.

Edited December 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[Baff1 0]

No because Norway does not have terrorist training camps on it's soil, .

So where did Brievik go to train then?

[katipo66 94]

"And that justify kills of 18 Pakistani citizens?" Yes it does....If Pakistan continues with these activities the regrettable deaths of bystanders are on it's hands.

Mate, there's no justification in the killing off innocent people, your like the FOX news of the BI forums

[icebreakr 3159]

So where did Brievik go to train then?

? Trainings can be individual or with your team. Tactics with milsim teams, shooting in clubs or hunter associations?

[PELHAM 10]

Mate, there's no justification in the killing off innocent people, your like the FOX news of the BI forums

If Pakistan gives sanctuary to terrorist groups it effectively creates a war zone in Pakistani territory does it not? Pakistan also formally agreed the US could conduct drone strikes in Waziristan. So the deaths of bystanders and the terrorist's friends and family are mainly the consequence of Pakistani action and inaction. If the terrorists did not have Sanctuary in Pakistan, Pakistani citizens would not be getting killed. Pakistani unwillingness to deal with the problem and only giving the US one option to respond leads to the deaths of Pakistani citizens. If Pakistan arrested terrorists and shut down their training camps and confiscated weapons there wouldn't be a problem. Pakistan creates the problem by doing the opposite. How can they allow their territory to be used in this way? It's just bizarre.

Harsh realities, but that is how things are. You would suggest that the terrorist groups in Waziristan be left unhindered while people die in Europe and Afghanistan? Pakistan is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world, part of it's government are actively involved and the rest look the other way. They are causing the conflict within Pakistan and the prolonged war in Afghanistan.

It's a fact that the training camps exist and it's a fact that most of the jihadists involved in plots or actual attacks in Europe and the USA have visited them. You can label me as akin to Fox News lol if you like, I wouldn't know I have never watched it, what's up can't handle the truth, nothing I have written is incorrect is it?

Read this from the BBC (dare you criticise the BBC too?):

The Afghan-Pakistan militant nexus, The Afghan-Pakistan border region has become the front line in the war against Islamic militants. The area is a patchwork quilt of territory where militant groups have gained strength in some places but lost ground in others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15149996

"South Waziristan, a tribal district in Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Fata), is the first significant sanctuary Islamic militants carved for themselves outside Afghanistan after 9/11."

Pakistan doesn't actually administer anything as can be seen from the translated text on page 4 of this thread.

Edited December 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[katipo66 94]

have you been to Pakistan?

[PELHAM 10]

have you been to Pakistan?

Yes, in 1993 I went on an organised trek to K2 base camp. Starting off in Islamabad we travelled along the Karakorum Highway (biggish dirt road) full of suicidal truck drivers. The mountains are a nice experience but can't say I saw anything in Pakistan itself that would make me want to return.

I also have several Kashmiri acquaintances who keep me informed about what goes on and how they are very relived not to be living there any more. The exact words they used was "Kashmir is full of extremists, terrorists and religious crazy people."

[IdarOberstein 10]

Snap!

---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

Yes, in 1993 I went on an organised trek to K2 base camp. Starting off in Islamabad we travelled along the Karakorum Highway (biggish dirt road) full of suicidal truck drivers. The mountains are a nice experience but can't say I saw anything in Pakistan itself that would make me want to return.

I also have several Kashmiri acquaintances who keep me informed about what goes on and how they are very relived not to be living there any more. The exact words they used was "Kashmir is full of extremists, terrorists and religious crazy people."

Snap!

[PELHAM 10]

Snap!

Snap!

Hope you didn't regret it as much as me! :D Went to Chilean Patagonia and Argentina in 96. It was much better. The most amazing natural phenomena I have ever seen is at Parque National de Quelat. There is a Glacier from the Patagonian ice cap that breaks off and falls 1000's feet down a cliff (ventisquero colgante). It's louder than thunder and you have the green of the temperate rain forest and the blue sea in the fjords, humming birds, sea lions, penguins and killer whales. K2 is higher and more rugged but it's not as stunning or as pretty.

Edited December 10, 2011 by PELHAM