Pakistan Taliban/Al Qaeda War

Hi all

I thought it appropriate to start this thread, I searched to see if there was Pakistan Taliban/Al Qaeda War thread and there was not.

To start you off here is a link to the BBC assessment of the current level of Taliban influence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8046577.stm

I spent some time in the area a short while after the former USSR left Afghanistan. I was mostly between the Iranian border and Waziristan. I traveled overland from Zahedan Iran to Queta and then on to Karachi and Lahore on a mixture of trains and local buses. I was there for about 2 months.

I have designated the Al Qaida route to power with bold latin style numbering i. ii. ... vi. ... ix. etc.

History of the Taliban and Al Qaeda

Some time ago in the Iraq thread I posted a history of how Al Qaeda began. This is a potted version of that.

Afghanistan was chosen as Al Qaeda's start point for several reasons not least of which was that access to an Arab Nuclear Bomb, first a little history:

i. Al Qaeda were already in Afghanistan and Pakistan, encouraged by Reagan and Bush Snr. under Operation Cyclone, supported by the Pakistan ISI and funded by Saudi Arabia.

Bin Laden was their Finance Director then but at the time it was called Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK). He was sent there by his family because he was an alcoholic, the hope was that by working with those less well off than himself, Afghan Refugees, and in a religious environment he would sort himself out.

MAK was not a very effective mujahideen, mainly naive Arab idealist but with a controlling core of terrorist from various Arab countries; that the Arab countries funded in order to get the terrorists out of their hair.

The founding of the Taliban

The mujahideen sent their children to Pakistan to escape the war, thinking they were safe in the hands holy men running religious schools. These kids are the Taliban. Taliban literally means "students"

What MAK had with the Saudi Funded Madrasahs teaching the Wahhabi doctrine to the refugee children of the mujahideen; was a recruiting network with already traumatised and radicalised children. And more importantly all those children were taught to obey those who ran the Madrasahs. These were portrayed as holy men and brave mujahideen, but were in fact terrorists from day one.

MAK a mere 2000 foreign Jihadis contributed little to the war against the Russians; that was won by the likes of Ahmad Shah Mas’ud (the Lion of Afghanistan) and the quarter of a million native Afghan Mujahideen.

After the Russians left the war with Marxist Afghan government continued for another 3 years and at the end of that, a civil war for the remains blew up.

When the war with Russia was finished, some of the Arabs returned home to normal lives but the Arab terrorists had no where else to go, their original countries certainly did not want them back, they had just spent the last decade being taught how to run covert ops and make bombs by western experts and the Pakistan ISI; I would not want them in my country either.

A few went off to Chechen war others to the Balkans. MAK split fratricidaly and out of it emerged Al Qaeda with the terrorists under Ayman al-Zawahiri and the money man Bin Laden and they ended up in Sudan. That is a tale in itself. Others stayed in Pakistan. Pretty soon they were kicked out of Sudan but in the meantime:

ii. Afghanistan was a political vacuum ripe for the picking

iii. Al Qaeda had established financial control of a recruiting and religio-political control structure the Madrasahs

Thus began the darkest phase of the Al Qaeda plan.

PATRICIDE

All those Refugee Kids, the sons, of the true mujahideen who had beaten the Russians, well they were the student/Taliban of those Madrasahs, and they sent them into Afghanistan to kill their own fathers and they did it with Al Qaeda laughing into the Taliban's long bushy beards.

The thing to remember above all is that the The Taliban are a creature of Al Qaeda. It is their puppet.

This is my assessment of what Al Qaeda's aims.

Al Qaeda has two main goals.

1)Restoration of the Caliphate.

This means Arab control of the Muslim world. They are achieving this with Wahhabi's and the active support of Saudi Arabs to fund Madrases around the world to promulgate what is probably a blasphemous interpretation of Islam.

2)Access to an Arab Nuclear Bomb.

Notice I say Arab Nuclear Bomb, not Muslim, Al Qaeda is run by Wahhabi Arabs from Saudi Arabia and the Yemen, they just use the Taliban, Pakistanis, Afghans and Muslims ALL as pawns.

Laughing into their beards as they say.

Routes to a Nuke

Afghanistan gave four possible routes to Nuclear weapons:

a) Pakistan, the easiest: destabilise it, infiltrate its power structures as they have, control its education with well funded Madrasahs, control its finances in key areas with Saudi money.

b) Russia and the former soviet empire: Use cash and buy them with Saudi Oil money from the $140 a barrel bonanza.

c) China: Do a deal

d) Iran: Get America and or Israel to attack and then offer to do the dirty as retaliation for their Muslim brothers or steal them in the confusion. With Iran's hatred of Al Qaeda this would only work if America and Israel could be properly manipulated.

iv. Al Qaeda have established financial control of the quasi military organisation; the Taliban

v. They had a financial support network from both the Arab and Muslim world

vi. They have the infrastructure for a covert operations element; the Al Qaeda Franchise

Control of Pakistan the Chosen Nuclear Route

Now they have moved into the next phase of the Caliphate plan; control of an Arab nuclear bomb by taking over Pakistan:

vii. Using their tried and tested Wahhabi Madrasahs they have begun to take control of Pakistani youth giving them a ready made army of the naive to manipulate and control.

viii. They have established financial control over the Pakistan ISI

ix. They had infiltrated control elements of the Pakistan ISI

x. They have infiltrated covert elements within the Pakistani Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army.

xi. Call any one who disagrees with them Takfir or kafeer and then they can kill them according to their Wahhabi interpretation of Sharia.

The Pakistanis are just more pawns for the Arab Wahhabi's of Al Qaeda and the Wahhabi's will laugh into the Pakistani Taliban's beards too, just like the did with Afghan Taliban.

Perhaps people can now see why Obama has moved more troops into Afghanistan and why the Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld's decision to start the fake war Iraq and not kill the head of the snake when they had a chance in the Torra Bora mountains was such a stupid strategic error.

You should not ignore Al Qaeda's primary goal of the Caliphate. This is about controlling Mecca and the Hajj and by it control of all 1.3 to 1.5 billion muslims. To a large extent this Wahhabi plan is already in place, it is just a matter of taking control of Saudi Arabia which is already predominantly Wahhabi. The Caliphate was a period of Arab supremacy over the worlds muslims and it is that power that Whabbism and Al Qaeda seek; Pakistan, Afghanistan and all other muslims are seen as vassal states. The Caliphate is Wahhabism and hence Al Qaeda's primary goal.

Kind Regards walker

Your assessment has some omissions, you forget the role ISI had on the creation of the Taliban,

ISI had created the taliban to control afganistan and keep it under its sphere of influence, the taliban were fairly unrelated to Al-Qaeda, as much as Saddam was unrelated to 9/11. The Taliban even offered hold a trial against Osama for 9/11, but refused to hand him over.

Many former mujaheddin who fought against soviets formed the taliban, mullah omar wasn't some mujaheddins son, he himself was one.

Hi Spetz

If you go back to the old Iraq and Afghanistan threads you will see I pointed the ISI's roll in the creation of the Taliban previously.

History of the Taliban and Al Qaeda

Some time ago in the Iraq thread I posted a history of how Al Qaeda began.

As I said Taliban translates from Pashto to "Student" so their origins was the Wahhabi Madrasahs. Mohamed Omar was a member of a small Afghan Mujaheddin. He came to power because he teamed up with the Bin Laden the Money man and Ayman al-Zawahiri the terrorist and radical Wahhabi preachers who ran the Madrasahs. Mohamed Omar was taught at a Madrasah in Kandahar became one of the teachers in the Madrasahs which is where he gets the appellation Mullah.

There are about five controlling Pakistani trained Taliban below Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Mullah Mohamed Omar. The five Taliban leaders below Al Qaeda all graduated from Darul Uloom Haqqania, Madrasah in Akora Khattak, Peshawar, and were taught by Maulana Sami ul-Haq the so called father of the Taliban. The other structure is the so called Kandahari, to who the Taliban swear allegiance

But as you point out there were many fingers in that pie.

The Key players at beginning were

1) President Carter who came up with the idea of using Afghanistan to do a Vietnam to the USSR.

2) President Reagan and then Vice President Bush who enacted the policy of Operation Cyclone.

3) The US took part in many forms look out for Charlie Wilson's War. An example is a certain CIA and former US Special Forces soldier and double agent who trained Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and most of the senior people in what would become Al Qaeda in covert warfare, kidnapping and assassination. In all honesty he was one of many agents and not just US special forces were there.

He goes by the names Ali Abdul Saoud Mohamed, Ali Abdelsoud Mohammed and Ali Mohammed AKA "al-Amriki" among others. Some sources say he was born in Egypt and served as an Egyptian army military intelligence officer and is supposed to have served in the same unit as assassinated Egyptian President Sadat.

4) Saudi Wahhabi factions. These are the people that really controlled what was and is going on.

5) The Pakistan ISI

And various other bit part players.

The ISI's role in the mujaheddin was wide and varied. But they never had a controlling position in MAK or the Wahhabi Madrasahs. MAK were financially controlled by the Saudis and their placemen Bin Laden and the Palestinian Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam and Ayman al-Zawahiri. The ISI's role there was training and facilities provision and to act as an intermediary along with the Pakistan Army for US weapons bought by Saudi and other Muslim organisations and charities under the guise of helping refugees. MAK was a small organisation in the whole mujaheddin, numbering only some 2000 mostly foreign fighters. The total foreign fighters was around 35,000 but this was dwarfed by the Quater of a Million Afghan Mujaheddin.

To the ISI MAK was a small cog in the wheel. What MAK did have was lots of money and facilities to recruit radicalised brainwashed students, the Taliban. Pakistan ignored this thinking it would disappear once the war was over.

And when the Afghan War was over Pakistan found it had a cuckoo in the nest.

MAK started to fracture and its leader Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam was assassinated in 1989 during a fratrecidal putsch that left Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri in charge. This was when Al Qaeda was formed

The Saudis and the other Arab nations did not want their Terrorists back especially now they were battle hardened and trained by the west's top special forces.

A few were allowed to return but that hard core were not wanted by their countries, a few allowed back to being doctors teachers and shopkeepers. Some went of to Chechenya and the Balkans. About 300 plus were given Sudanese passports as Pakistan pressured America who offered Sudan inducements to take them. Some of those went back to being doctors teachers and shopkeepers in Sudan and a few other Arab countries, always watched by their respective security services, others joined those security services but others kept up radical organisations and some fell back into their old ways. Eventually Sudan kicked them out after they tried to kill the Egyptian president while he was on a state visit to Ethiopia.

They returned to Pakistan by various routes and linked up with those who remained in the Tribal Areas.

The training Al Qaeda had been given as MAK along with its financial links to the ISI gave Al Qaeda a lot of power. Its Madrasahs were now teaching Pakistani children which gave it an in into Pakistan ISI families. Its religious power gave it sway over religious ISI members. Its finance gave it power over those ISI that could be corrupted. Its terrorist training in kidnap, extortion and assassination gave it power over any who argued against it. They started to apply the model across the board in Pakistan, seeking the fractures in the political system praying on the corruption and feeding the discontent.

Pakistan wanted rid of them. So the ISI teamed Al Qaeda up with a small band of mujaheddin. The Saudis provided the money and a mass of white Toyota pick-ups. And they sent them off to supposedly restore law and order in Afghanistan.

The Pakistanis and Saudis probably thought this ragtag band of a few thousand would die in Afghanistan. In fact the the ISI had underestimated or completely forgotten all those radicalised kids who were now placed under the control of Mullah Mohamed Omar. Thus began the Taliban. The army the Pakistanis unleashed was not two or three thousand it was the sons of more than a quarter of a million Afghan Mujaheddin who had been brain washed and radicalised in the madrasahs.

At first they were welcomed as returning children of the Mujaheddin and they got rid of the warlord-ism but people soon realised that all these black clad school uniformed robot kids had a very different view of Islam and the world to their fathers but their was an awful lot of them and were very fanatical in battle as well as when policing the streets.

In the mean time the oil men in America and Saudi Arabia had realised there was oil north of Afghanistan and they wanted pipeline through there before the Russians got control of it. So the Pakistan ISI was told to keep helping them and have them meet with Unocal Corporation in Texas.

We then move in to the time when Al Qaeda and America fell out. I will leave that for later.

As you can see I take a different view of the Pakistan ISI and its role in the formation of the Taliban and the Al Qaeda. I see it largely as a passive force. It may have had dreams of adding Afghanistan to a larger Pakistan but they were pipe dreams, manipulated by at turns the Saudis with their money, the Americans with their world power status and money, the Wahhabis with their religious power, and outmaneuvered by Al Qaeda. A country that has trouble controlling its tribal regions was never going to achieve what 2 of the great powers never achieved.

As to having power over the Taliban and Al Qaeda. If the ISI had any sway over the Taliban, Pakistan would not have lost any territory to them, and Bin Laden, Mullah Omar and Ayman al-Zawahiri would not be free and at large in Pakistan.

Kind Regards walker

Hi all

You can get an idea of what the, probably blasphemous, Wahhabi interpretation of Islam leads to, in this article about life under the Taliban in Pakistan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6350500.ece

Kind Regards walker

Hi all

I think it may be time to dust off this thread in the light of the Killing of Bin Laden and the fact that he found safe haven in Pakistan; only a few hundred yards from Pakistan's equivalent to West Point, Quantico or Sandhurst.

Why are Al Qaeda and Bin Laden In Pakistan?

As I have stated Al Qaeda has two main goals.

1)Restoration of the Caliphate.

This means Arab control of the Muslim world. They are achieving this with Wahhabi's and the active support of Saudi Arabs to fund Madrasahs around the world to promulgate what is probably a blasphemous interpretation of Islam.

2)Access to a Wahhabi Arab Nuclear Bomb.

Notice I say Wahhabi Arab Nuclear Bomb, not Muslim, Al Qaeda is run by Wahhabi Arabs from Saudi Arabia and the Yemen, they just use the Taliban, Pakistanis, Afghans and Muslims ALL as pawns.

To get the nukes the Wahhabi's need to control Pakistan.

Controlling Pakistan

The Wahhabi's Pakistan control Project

Now they have moved to the next phase of the plan; control of an Arab nuclear bomb by taking over Pakistan:

Back to the history and Why the history matters:

A quick recap: After the fall of MAK Afghanistan was chosen as Al Qaeda's initial base for several reasons:

1. They were already there!

2. Afghanistan was a political vacuum ripe for the picking

3. They had established financial control of a quasi military organisation; the Taliban

4. They had a financial support network from both the Arab and Muslim world

5. They had the infrastructure for a covert operations element; the Al Qaeda Franchise

6. They had established financial control of a recruiting structure the Madrasahs in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

7. They have since also established financial controls over the Pakistan ISI, using Saudi moneyed projects to create an addiction to Saudi Oil money, which they control the taps to.

8. They have also infiltrated control elements of the Pakistan ISI via, education indoctrination, sponsoring suitable candidates etc. and by use of the classic means of bribes, blackmail, honey traps and threats to their Children who go to Wahhabi Schools.

9. By the same means they have infiltrated covert elements within the Pakistani Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army, the same people who control the nukes.

Some of the people who were mourning Bin Laden were the Supporters of Pakistan's Islamic Lawyer Forum at the Peshawar High Court building in Peshawar, Pakistan; who held a prayer service for him on Wednesday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-05-muslim-world-quiet_n.htm

Others were a few hundred members of the a Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party including a Pakistani MP

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13280814

It is at the extremes of Pakistan's society that Al Qaeda's infiltration is obvious but it is also apparent in reaction of some of the Pakistani man or woman on the Karachi Omnibus to his death that Wahhabism has started to infiltrate the society in general.

Pakistan's Defense in Depth program used as a Trojan Horse by Al Qaeda

Pakistan's Paranoia about India meant that Pakistan created a defense in depth plan of retreating into Afghanistan, hence why it wants a detablized and weak Afghanistan so that it could be easily invaded and used for depth and mobility.

That has been one of the reasons for Pakistan Military and ISI's support of the Taliban; a backward government and country in Afghanistan would never be a threat to an invading Pakistan.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Analysis/de-Borchgrave/2011/05/03/Commentary-Pakistans-split-personality/UPI-50101304416227/

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7356904.html

Arab Wahhabi Al Qaeda has in turn used this as a lever and Trojan Horse to pry open the Pakistan ISI and parts of its Army, Government and controling elites but they have extended this with their Madrasahs.

Pakistan has only recently realised the Cukoo that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are in its nest, with the mass of internal terrorist attacks, but those assets that Al Qaeda has in Pakistan's: ISI, Army, Government and elites will take a long time to root out and the indocrination that the Wahhabi controled Madrasahs instilled will take longer still.

The Madrasahs and how the strings are pulled

The Madrasahs now free of their Afghan Refugees were thus opened up to teaching Pakistani children. With vast areas of Pakistan without any education free schooling seemed like a wonderful gift. The Wahhabi funded schools soon became entrenched and expanded their influence; many of its more academic student/recruiters were established in most of Pakistan's schools with Wahhabi sponsorship and grants to encourage this; including those schools that taught the children of its elites, often looking for a conservative approved Muslim cleric. This then gave it a route into the core of Pakistani society. Its religious power gave it sway over religious members of Pakistan's elites. Much of what they have achieved was through the infiltration the education system of the Pakistan elites, for the decades Wahhabi texts have filled the schools of the Children of Pakistan's leaders, even using the Kitab at-tawhid to replace the Koran. Using their tried and tested Wahhabi Madrasahs they have begun to take control of Pakistani youth giving them a ready made army of the naive to manipulate and control.

How Modern Wahhabi Madrasahs work, around the world

The Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools, colleges and orphanages are used to choose and stream the different classes of Student/Taliban (Taliban, in Pashto, means Student remember) The vast majority of Wahhabi Madrasahs' students, between 75% and 90%, are just unconscious financial supporters, via school fees and charitable donations to their Alma Mater.

The Wahhabi Madrasahs are based on concepts taught to them by their Western security agencies, the Pakistani ISI and Saudi Secret Service trainers; in how to recruit and groom the various asset types they needed. The Tactics, Techniques and Procedures that formed there SOP were reverse engineered from Russian communists, Chinese Maoists, Koreans, Cuban and NVA revolutionary manuals and practice sources some of this stuff goes all the way back to the SOE and French Resistance and indeed back to the America Revolutionary war and all the way back to Machiavelli and Sun Tzu.

It has also been further refined by modern psychology and the fruits of America's own MK Ultra project.

It is all about classifying and streaming the different asset types:

A selected few are active support (all these are then leverage-able via blackmail)

a) Direct financial supporters, people who give money for acts of jihad.

b) Recruiters, people who work in and run the Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools and orphanages usually Arabs at the higher levels, people like Anwar al-Aulaqi.

c) Trainers and technical support, the Taliban has bomb makers, computer and encryption experts etc. the more socially inept of the nerds at a school, the ones who want to look cool, these are the covert core assets who remain hidden and prime targets of the CIA.

d) Administrative control and asset handling, the people who control the suicide bombers.

e) Suicide bombers, in every school there are people who have mental issues these are the people who Al Qaeda choose as Suicide Bombers, people with a similar psychological make up to say to Jared Lee Loughner, the Tucson killer.

f) Soldiers; those who are are not stupid enough to be suicide bombers but who like guns, every school has them.

The Destabilization Phase

Al Qaeda are now in the destabilising Pakistan phase of their plan with a simmering civil war which they use to recruit and radicalise others, once again through those Wahhabi schools and orphanages. Al Qaeda's vast Saudi oil finance gave it power over those in the ISI that could be corrupted. Its terrorist training in kidnap, extortion and assassination gave it power over any who argued against it. They started to apply the model they had learned in Afghanistan across the board in Pakistan, seeking the fractures in the political system praying on the corruption and feeding the discontent.

In July of 2010 a Passenger Plane, after loosing all contact with the ground, flew low over Islamabad into the Air Exclusion Zone surrounding the Pakistan Parliament and the Pakistan Presidents House and later crashed into Mountains above the Presidential Palace 152 plus passengers and crew killed.

Al Qaeda has a history of flying passenger jets into targets; such a decapitation raid only has to get through once.

The schools that indoctrinated the Afghan Taliban refugees now teach Pakistani Children

Since the majority of Afghan Refugees left for Afghanistan; the Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools and orphanages in Pakistan have been filled with Pakistani Children. Often as they are strict religious schools and their fees have been paid by rich Wahhabi Arabs they have targeted the children of Pakistani ISI, Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army.

This is how Pakistan is slowly being infiltrated and controlled by the Arab Wahhabis.

The Pakistanis are just pawns for the Arab Wahhabis of Al Qaeda just like the Afghan Taliban and the Wahhabis are laughing into the Pakistanis beards too.

Educate your self as to who America's true enemy is:

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory111802.asp

By the way all this stuff Al Qaeda are doing now was what was taught to them in Operation Cyclone.

Charlie Wilson and the CIA agent in Quetta pointed out the possibility of the blow-back at the end of the Afghan war.

Why the ISI was excluded from the Bin Laden Operation

IMHO I think the Pakistan ISI has been increasingly infiltrated and subverted. Its paranoia about India has been manipulated and used to sow Fear Uncertainty and Doubt; while the vast Saudi Arabian oil moneys have been used to economically control, bribe and subvert its actions.

I think President Obama and the CIA now understand this and hence excluded the ISI from the loop in the Bin Laden operation. The fact that two previous CIA operations were blown as soon as ISI was told leading to the targets escaping are additional evidence this is so.

The infiltration and subversion of Pakistan has been going on for nearly two decades now, leading to a range of pro Al Qaeda views and some people openly expressing views like this:

...Mohammad Younis, a young Taliban member who has fought for four years on the fronts of Ghazni, Helmand and Kandahar, says Bin Laden was "like my father".

"I can't really describe my grief to you," he told me in southern Pakistan.

"But jihad is not and never was about one man. We mourn his loss, but the struggle will never stop.

"We will make all those responsible for his death pay - in Afghanistan and across the world.

"Let them rejoice now - soon they will feel fear again."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13280814

As Always follow the link to the original article in full

But as I point out I think Pakistan has been infiltrated and is not the source. The source is another country entirely. And where was it the 9/11 bombers came from?

Kind Regards walker

Hi Walker, interesting thread. I want to ask a simple question, it's not a trick or smart arse or anything, just a genuine question:

Based on your knowledge and personal opinion of, (well, everything), do you think the Western forces in Afghanistan/Iraq is right?

Do you support British and American troops being sent out?

I personally find most of what you say very interesting, whether it is true or not, and so i am intrigued about your opinions on the current war.

Cheers!

Hi Walker, interesting thread. I want to ask a simple question, it's not a trick or smart arse or anything, just a genuine question:

Based on your knowledge and personal opinion of, (well, everything), do you think the Western forces in Afghanistan/Iraq is right?

Do you support British and American troops being sent out?

I personally find most of what you say very interesting, whether it is true or not, and so i am intrigued about your opinions on the current war.

Cheers!

Western forces in Afghanistan is/was a show of strength, it was a message to anyone that the west wasn't weak and would hunt down and attack those that attack us.

Everything else is just fluff, do I support the troops damn right I do.

Will Afghanistan be changed, nope not ever, once the troop withdrawls start, so will the wing of power, the afghan troops will go back to tribe loyalities and you will be a civil war of sorts, with various warlords going for power.

By that time the west(us) will have moved onto something else.

With Libya out the way in terms of being a threat, all eyes will be on Iran.

Just my thoughts :)

Man, you can dumb this Al Quaida History BS in the trashcan. :rolleyes:

Al Quaida is an tool for destabilasation, and they show up everywhere the High ruling gangsters need them. First Afghanistan to bring the soviets their vietnam(quote Zbigniew Brzeziński) then Serbia that wouldn't join the European Union but now did and now they are in Lybia. Gaddafi is an alkoholic despot but hes absolutly right when he says, that the "Rebells" are CIA backed up Al Quaida and the jerusalem post and the telegraph wrote about that.

Ive linked to the official FBI Most Wanted Page of Osama Bin Laden and even the FBI says, that Al Qaida means "Base". It was/it is a Database for CIA Mercenaries. Now they use them against Gaddafi, becaus he gets double crossed now.

Nearly the same thing they did in Serbia to split that country off.

First the freedom fighters came in and do some war crimes, than the Nation strikes back and gets brandmarked as tyrannical massmurder.

Al-Qaeda 100% Pentagon Run

How comes Al Ciada to Pakistan? US Planes bring them there.

Afghanistan was a political vacuum ripe for the picking

Afghanistan has a tousands of years old structure of tribes and their political system, the Shura. There are just the elder man involved, not woman and children, but thats exact that system that was called democratie in greek. But the Soviets, than the Taliban and now the Allies try their best to destroy this system.

Ahmad Shah Massoud has fought the taliban after the russians run off and later he has fought against the americans. But then he got killed, maybee because the russians and the chinese put to much work in the northern alliance.

IMO all that Al-Quaeda is nothing like a myth and another excuse for DoD and other special services to grow up their budgets. It's just excellent way to ask for some extra money and abilities. "We threat you as Al-Quaeda member - You will stay in our prison with horrible conditions for many years without any exact charges". "Look, those terrorists wanna make all you dead!!! So give us moar money and gear to stay safe!". BTW, we have the same domestic myth since 1994 - chechen gangs, very good way to steal great amount of money. And if western special services and armies at least have an ability to renew their gear and have a good practice thanks to those terrorists, our guys recieve almost nothing. Only politicians gather their profit.

Hi Walker, interesting thread. I want to ask a simple question, it's not a trick or smart arse or anything, just a genuine question:

Based on your knowledge and personal opinion of, (well, everything), do you think the Western forces in Afghanistan/Iraq is right?

Do you support British and American troops being sent out?

I personally find most of what you say very interesting, whether it is true or not, and so i am intrigued about your opinions on the current war.

Cheers!

Hi richiespeed13

Afghanistan

Surprise surprise the Afghan war began over oil!

Caspian Oil; trying to beat the Russian Iranian and Turkish pipelines to market

Various elements within the oil business and what was to become the US administration of George Bush, as well as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia had tried to do a deal with the Taliban on an oil pipeline from Caspian Sea Region, through Afghanistan to Pakistan and the area north of the Rann of Kutch and just south of Karachi. Part of their "negotiation method" was to threaten the Taliban government with support to other groups in Afghanistan and war.

The famous statement from the US representatives was:

...either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs...

http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CK20Ag01.html

As Always follow the link to the original article in full.

Part of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia's support for the Taliban and later for their ouster was in order for Pakistan to get the pipeline revenues and for Saudi Arabian Oil companies and tankers to do the transport, America companies wanted in too. Also a pipeline through just Afghanistan and Pakistan involves less national parties to pay! Two poor illiterate countries as distinct from 3 semi literate and one 1st world country, that was also a member of NATO. This mean more share of the profits for the people running the pipeline, it is far easier to cheat stupid people, and it also uses the Saudi and US Tankers that the conglomerate own. A pipeline straight to Europe leaves no money for tanker fleet owners in the US and Saudi Arabia. Ms. Rice would be "Tres Upset."

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/caspianoil1.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/oil.html

There was also a national security excuse of reducing the danger of oil to The West from being cut off by Russia. Hence why the great game is being played in Georgia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Chechenya etc. A useful thing to do is look where the US and other nations fund university placements and scholarships and indeed whole universities as well as trade missions and military bases and military training bases and aid.

All though in the case of the Business People like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld it is all about profit!

One the reasons the Bush Administration lost interest in Afghanistan and let Bin Laden escape in the Battle of Tora Bora:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora

was because the other pipelines became far enough advanced that they would make it to market so far in front of the Unocal project, that it lost its economic advantage. And that was why they went for Iraq you may remember Dick Cheney's Halliburton and KBR got a 6 Billion Dollar no bid contract as soon as they got there up until then it had been languishing in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.

The Taliban and Al Qaeda Declared War

Having said all that the Original reason for entering Afghanistan was 9/11 and that along with fact that the Taliban and Al Qaeda declared war on The West are something some people conveniently forget.

We are there now

That Ronald Dumsfeld pulled the plug at the moment we could have got out of there clean will be a day that forever lives in Infamy. And all to chase after fantasy WMD, links to Al Qaeda and 9/11 that his very own Office of Special Plans (OSP) made up leads me to call him traitor pure and simple.

That we let Afghanistan fester and its cancer of Wahhabi Al Qaeda return so that our troops had to clear it out a second time shows why it is important to finish a job you start.

We are there now. We should finish the job or all our soldiers lives and the lives of all those civilians caught in the crossfire are for nought.

But we will be finished within about a year. The draw down of troops begins in July. So we look as though we are on schedule. I hope that Pakistan has given up on its expansionist policy of Annexing eastern Afghanistan as part of a frankly stupid defense strategy of more use would be a proper treaty with India.

Iraq

As I said in the original Iraq thread I was sceptical as to why we were there but as they were the elected representatives and privy to information the rest were not privy too I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=11;t=31470;st=615

I also said back then that if no WMD or link to Al Qaeda or 9/11 then the principle politicians involved in fooling us in both the UK and the USA should be brought before the courts and have all their assets removed.

...Legal consequences for TBA and TBA2 of not finding WMD

It maybe that Iraqi citizens will be within their rights to make claims for compensation for loss of life property and earnings in pursuit of a wrongful war if no WMD is found. Their first port of call should be the personal fortunes of the members of the administrations not US and UK tax payers. As a tax payer in one the countries involved I would prefer that the members of an administration that fails to come up with proof of WMD have their personal fortunes so reduced as to cause them to live in a council / housing project before I pay for it...

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=453909post453909

It remains my view that the Bush and Blair administrations were either criminally negligent or guilty of criminal fraud in causing us to be involved in the Iraq war and that they should be tried for it.

It should be a criminal investigation not a war

I have long held the view that the "War on Terror" wrongly ascribes the status of warrior and the protections of the Geneva Convention to people who have, when all is said and done, committed a crime. Al Qaeda is and remains a criminal organisation with its interest in the drugs trade, fraud kidnapping and murder.

I consider the Taliban to be different. In most cases mislead children in the case of Afghanistan Refugee semi Orphaned children who have been indoctrinated into the Wahhabi view of the world and used as tools of Wahhabi foreign policy.

Ditto those in Pakistan who have similarly been lied to from an early age by an organisation that purports to be Muslim but if you were to look is not. Adding text and changing the meaning of the Koran is something that their prophet specifically said was forbidden yet that is exactly what Wahhabis do to the Koran.

I think concentrating on those fracture lines is already bearing fruit.

I maintain that the way to beat Al Qaeda is not via war but by criminal investigations and methods and yes SWAT type raids where needed.

I remain convinced that Pakistan is heavily subverted from decades of Al Qaeda's corruption and the Wahhabi's Madrasas.

But I feel the real solution is coming in that Muslims have started to realise that the Wahhabis have killed more Muslims than anyone else. In Pakistan alone Al Qaeda has killed more than were killed in 9/11. Look to their deeds and the mask slips.

That President Obama is supporting the move away from the Arab dictators is the key thing that will end Al Qaeda. And that the Palestinians are at last in rapprochement gives me hope that this Presidency, given time and another term, will see peace in the Middle East.

I think the Internet and that source which we are not allowed to mention also played their part in ending the era of dictators. I think even Saudi Arabia will see this Arab spring.

In the mean time our true enemy remains Wahhabism and that is what must be tackled.

With Oil Prices declining due to President Obama killing the Bogey man. The power of the Oil Businessmen that lead us into war and the Wahhabis who live off it is delcining so now is the time to begin.

Kind Regards walker

The NY Times reported that an US drone almost killed Anwar al-Awlaki.

But CBS news reported in October 2010 that Qaeda-Linked Imam Dined at Pentagon after 9/11.

Another Puppet, another CIA Asset to fool us and sell us this Al CIAda international terrorism BS.

One the reasons the Bush Administration lost interest in Afghanistan and let Bin Laden escape in the Battle of Tora Bora:

Oooh, he was surrounded by Delta Forces and Marines but in some magical way, he could escape. Because the Pentagon was sadly to stupid to gauge that. Oh, we are sorry. It was just disability. Move on, nothing to see here.

I mean, how dumb must a man be to believe this total nonsense? Bin Laden needed a dialysis every three days, you couldn't make such things in a cave.

The NY Times reported that an US drone almost killed Anwar al-Awlaki.

But CBS news reported in October 2010 that Qaeda-Linked Imam Dined at Pentagon after 9/11.

Another Puppet, another CIA Asset to fool us and sell us this Al CIAda international terrorism BS.

When you take the word of CBS in the middle of breaking news 9/11 over the NYT, there's no point arguing with you.

Oooh, he was surrounded by Delta Forces and Marines but in some magical way, he could escape. Because the Pentagon was sadly to stupid to gauge that. Oh, we are sorry. It was just disability. Move on, nothing to see here.

Correction, he wasn't surrounded by Marines. He was surrounded by Northern Alliance Troops and Bush followed the military's advice on to introduce foreign forces on a large scale.

I mean, how dumb must a man be to believe this total nonsense? Bin Laden needed a dialysis every three days, you couldn't make such things in a cave.

Correction, they found A dialysis machine in a cave. Doesn't mean it's for him. And my grandfather lived on dialysis for years, without even being a millionaire with hundreds of loyal servants.

Correction, he wasn't surrounded by Marines.

But Marines were on demand. They could intervene, but for some reason, the Pentagon choose the Northern Alliance to capture him.

there's no point arguing with you.

I'am absolutly not interesstet in arguing with a bunch of pointless bullshit. There is no sense in endless discussions, ive just link the articles that show you the other perspektive. If you wanna believe that the Pentagon, a trillion dollar funded organisation, is just to stupid to catch a old, sick Man in a Cave, you can believe that as long you do not vote for some Bastard who use this kind of fairy tales to take my freedoms away.

Correction, they found A dialysis machine in a cave.

:D oh come on. You could show an articel for this claim. Maybee that thing belongs to Big Foot who should also live there. Together with Elvis and the Legion of Doom in their Tora Bora super mountain fortress.

... they found a dialysis machine in a cave. :rolleyes:

:D oh come on. You could show an articel for this claim. Maybee that thing belongs to Big Foot who should also live there. Together with Elvis and the Legion of Doom in their Tora Bora super mountain fortress.

... they found a dialysis machine in a cave. :rolleyes:

I didn't see your article. The only reason anyone thinks he needed dialysis is because they found a machine in Tora Bora.

Edit: And we now know that that was crock from the start: http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/07/osama-lived-in-haripur-before-moving-to-abbottabad-wife.html

He was not on dialysis.

The only reason anyone thinks he needed dialysis is because they found a machine in Tora Bora.

Thats total BS.

CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July

Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health. Some accounts claim that he is suffering from Hepatitis C, and can expect to live for only two more years.

According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan.

Hospital Worker: I Saw Osama

Pakistan intelligence sources tell CBS News that bin Laden was spirited into a military hospital in Rawalpindi for kidney dialysis treatment.

I guess he died on kidney failure in the ending of 2001.

Also he had given an interview to Al jazeera where he said, that he wasn't behinde 9/11 on the 17. September.

Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks

So why should Al CIAda brag about their 9/11 plot? Also we saw a video with a guy that poses as Bin Laden but was way to fat to be him. And he weared golden rings and wrote with the wrong hand.

Hi all

It occured to me that one of the reasons Wahhabi Al Qaeda hid Bin Laden in AbbottÄbad was because if discovered in Pakistan it could be used to further destablize Pakistan.

As I pointed out earlier the reason Al Qaeda are in Pakistan is because they want its nukes:

...2)Access to a Wahhabi Arab Nuclear Bomb....

...To get the nukes the Wahhabi's need to control Pakistan...

But due to the fact that Pakistan now has a Democratic government this appears to have back fired somewhat. As the Pakistani citizens seem to have foccused their anger on the military. And any simpathizers Al Qaeda had in the Military and ISI have been embarressed. The degree of leverage the military had over the Pakistan civilian government has been reduced. Further it has increased the suspicion of those with control of the purse strings on military foreign aid that Pakistan recieves fron the US and UK. This along with an investigation of any one with links to Al Qaeda will seriously dammage the any infiltration of the Military, ISI, Judicuary, and political parties that the Wahhabis have achieved. It may be that Al Qaeda may decide to burn any existing assets they have so as to prevent both blowback and tracing back through the assets.

If I am correct I expect to see a wave of accedents and assasinations as Al Qaeda tries to cauterize the dammage.

Kind Regards walker

Hi all

Saudi Arabian controlled Wahhabi Al Qaeda continue to kill Pakistani Muslims every day but today they claimed it was because Mr. Bin Laden was killed. They had no such excuse when they killed tens of thousands of Muslims, even while at prayer in their mosques. Not very Islamic is it now?

They killed 80 more Pakistanis today and wounded and maimed over 100 more.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13385597

Wahhabi Al Qaeda has killed tens of thousands of Muslims throughout the Muslim world.

What does that tell you?

The PLO threw them out of Palestine, and Hamas threw them out of Gaza and even the Muslim Brotherhood chucked them out Egypt.

How long will it take for Pakistan to realise?

Regards walker

We killed Osama, so why are we still in Afghanistan and pretend to care what happens in Pakistan?

We killed Osama, so why are we still in Afghanistan and pretend to care what happens in Pakistan?

Supposedly we're there to dismantle Al Qaeda and prevent Afghanistan being used as a base for terrorists. In what way does killing Osama bin Laden complete those objectives?

In what way does killing Osama bin Laden complete those objectives?

Those are military objectives and not the objectives of the American people. That's not why we went to Afghanistan about nine years ago.

We went to Afghanistan because the Taliban would not surrender Osama Bin Laden and expel Al Qaeda. (Leaving aside the question of whether the Bush Administration would have ever accepted Taliban assurances of disowning Al Qaeda, and the underlying energy interests that were however less prominent than in Iraq.)

Obviously letting the now-even-more hostile group establish a foothold in Afghanistan would restore pretty much the pre-invasion status quo, so far as the potential for attacks on the U.S. is concerned.

Nevermind that the real threat is in Pakistan.

they want us to play the bigger man and pull out now that we got bin laden.

#Pakistan

Those are military objectives and not the objectives of the American people. That's not why we went to Afghanistan about nine years ago.

What, the only objective of the American people was to kill bin Laden? That's a bit short sighted, surely they appreciate Al Qaeda is more than just one man? There's already been severe bombings in Pakistan in retaliation, and they managed that all by themselves. Who's to say there's not more in store for Westerners if AQ are allowed to continue to exist?

I'd say it's a victory against AQ, it's an intelligence coup as well, but it shouldn't affect the reasons for being in Afghanistan by much.

Hi all

The Biggest Threat remains Wahhabism.

Every one of the 9/11 bombers was a Wahhabi pawn and they all came from the Saudi Arabian Wahhabi lands.

A stable Afghanistan reduces the breeding ground for Wahhabism.

Wahhabism thrives in warlord-ism and lawless areas; that is why its main breeding grounds are failed states and lawless zones like Afghanistan in the Warlord era; Somalia, the periphery and borders of the Yemen and the Saudi Arabian peninsula, and the Tribal Regions of Pakistan.

President Obama's strategy has been two pronged: to consistently reduce the operating area of the Taliban and Al Qaeda and to go after Al Qaeda's leaders.

Plane fact it is working Bin Laden and many other Al Qaeda leaders have been captured or killed. And in Afghanistan we are looking to an Afghanistan increasingly controlled by Afghans and set to begin draw-down of troops in July.

Looks like President Obama will have done what he set out to do. Get Bin Laden and pull the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Things the Bush administration monumentally failed to do in 8 years of power.

But our real enemy remains Wahhabism. Killing Bin Laden has lead to Al Qaeda eating its own entrails as it goes after its former masters in the belief they betrayed them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8516220/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Saudi-Arabian-diplomat-shot-dead-in-revenge-attack.html

BUT the philosophy that drives Al Qaeda (the Base) remains Wahhabism.

Kind Regards walker

Hi all

As I keep pointing out Al Qaida:

...Al Qaeda has two main goals.

1)Restoration of the Caliphate.

This means Arab control of the Muslim world. They are achieving this with Wahhabi's and the active support of Saudi Arabs to fund Madrases around the world to promulgate what is probably a blasphemous interpretation of Islam.

2)Access to an Arab Nuclear Bomb.

Notice I say Arab Nuclear Bomb, not Muslim, Al Qaeda is run by Wahhabi Arabs from Saudi Arabia and the Yemen, they just use the Taliban, Pakistanis, Afghans and Muslims ALL as pawns.

Laughing into their beards as they say.

Now Al Qaida's route to power is becoming blindingly obvious:

23 May 2011 Last updated at 16:44

After Karachi: Is Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal safe?

By Jonathan Marcus

BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent

The assault on Mehran is seen by many experts as deeply embarrassing for Pakistan.

The assault by Pakistani militants on the naval air station at Mehran in Karachi represents a highly sophisticated attack against an important military installation.

The base is home to Pakistan's US-supplied Orion P3-C maritime patrol aircraft. At least two of the aircraft were destroyed.

A few US contractors - as well as a small number of Chinese engineers - were also at the base. Their presence highlights the peculiar split nature of Pakistan's military alliances.

The attack, audacious by the standards of Pakistan's Taliban, raises all sorts of awkward questions about security at the facility.

Did standards just slip? Were the militants underestimated? And what does it imply for security at other key installations, not least those associated with Pakistan's nuclear deterrent?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13507767

As allways follow the link to the original article text in full.

The Key question is were there any of Pakistan's Nukes at its primary Naval base?

One has only to think of where the west stores its Nukes to realise this is a probability.

I think the Wahhabi's strategy is more advanced than I predicted:

... Control of Pakistan the Chosen Nuclear Route

Now they have moved into the next phase of the Caliphate plan; control of an Arab nuclear bomb by taking over Pakistan:

vii. Using their tried and tested Wahhabi Madrasahs they have begun to take control of Pakistani youth giving them a ready made army of the naive to manipulate and control.

viii. They have established financial control over the Pakistan ISI

ix. They had infiltrated control elements of the Pakistan ISI

x. They have infiltrated covert elements within the Pakistani Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army.

xi. Call any one who disagrees with them Takfir or kafeer and then they can kill them according to their Wahhabi interpretation of Sharia.

The Pakistanis are just more pawns for the Arab Wahhabi's of Al Qaeda and the Wahhabi's will laugh into the Pakistani Taliban's beards too, just like the did with Afghan Taliban.

Perhaps people can now see why Obama has moved more troops into Afghanistan and why the Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld's decision to start the fake war Iraq and not kill the head of the snake when they had a chance in the Torra Bora mountains was such a stupid strategic error....

If Pakistan is able to launch attacks into the most secure military bases in Pakistan then ergo Pakistan's nukes are at risk of Falling into the hands of Al Qaeda.

As Journalists and experts are beginning to realise:

...But there are several reasons to worry:

• most of Pakistan's nuclear sites are close to or even within areas dominated by Pakistani Taliban militants. When they were first constructed, the imperative was to keep them away from the border with India to prevent them being overrun in any future conflict
  
• analysts believe that there have already been attacks on facilities housing elements of Pakistan's nuclear programme, including one against a nuclear storage facility in Sargodha in November 2007 and another, in August 2008, against the access points to the Wah cantonment, considered to be one of Pakistan's main nuclear weapons assembly sites
• despite elaborate efforts to screen personnel involved in the nuclear programme and the security force that guards it, there is always the danger of infiltration by people with extremist views
  
• some analysts even question the long-term reliability of key elements of the Pakistan military.
  
• For those who worry about the security of Pakistan's nuclear installations, the attack on the naval air station in Karachi is yet one more reminder that the militants inside the country are getting ever bolder.
  

My use of bold in quoted text.

When one considers the possible scenarios some of them come straight out of films and books:

One is inevitably reminded of films like The Sum of All Fears (film)

The possiblity that the Wahhbis could use a single nuke to trigger a war with India in order to grab more nukes is obvious or to further radicalise the Muslim world in triggering a war with India.

Or just a straight attack on a major US city and with the Pretext of the UN failing to recognise Palestine as per:

The Peace Maker

Regards walker