The Ethics and Rules of Porting?

[jedra 11]

Hi,

Didn't quite know the best place to post this, so I put it here for now...

Since the release of ToH there have been a few people (me included) keen to use some of the assets collected from Arma in ToH. These include Islands, models, scripts and missions from both the BI library and the community. As a result there has been some discussion (heated at times) as to what is appropriate to bring into ToH and what is not.

Clearly, there are some hard and fast rules that will apply no matter what;

1. You can't distribute BI models/islands/resources without the appropriate permission from BI.

2. You can't distribute Community made models/islands/resources without the permission of the 'owner'.

I think where the line becomes a bit vague is in with the following...

1. Porting an asset be it BI or Community for your own personal use (i.e not publishing it anywhere in a modifies form).

2. Using a script written by a community member in a published mission (properly acknowledged).

What I wanted to do was get the thoughts of BI, the moderators and the community about what is acceptable and not acceptable when using Arma assets in Take On Helicopters. It would be a shame for the community to be split on this, especially for those of us that are users of both.

I know the forum rules have a section on this, but it seems to me that with the release of ToH they maybe need to be expanded to take into account moving assets between the two games. Many addon makers explicitly state that their work should NOT be ported to the Military Simulation versions of Arma, but there is obviously no such statements for Take On Helicopters as it is so new.

Of course, should an addon maker or script writer explicitly state that theior work cannot be used in ToH then this would be respected.

Any thoughts on this?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Jedra

[sickboy 13]

IMO:

1; Any content that works unmodified in the next generation game should be fine (Commercial and Military use is generally prohibited, thus is VBS)

2; Any modifications done and want to distribute publically should require author authorization and crediting

3; Modifying and distributing Abandoned projects where one has tried extensively to contact the original author, is afaik generally acceptable. As long as you are prepared to pull the content if the author would ever return and demand removal.

4; All BIS content from older games may be used in newer games without requiring permission, given that you own the newer game, and afaik also the older game.

[maddogx 13]

I'd say as far as community content goes, the general rule is pretty simple:

If the author didn't give express permission to use his addon the way you want to, ask him/her about it first.

That's the safest way to avoid trouble. ;)

I think a lot of people forget that such things as intellectual property don't just affect professionally created and commercially sold content, but pretty much everything anyone creates.

[sickboy 13]

Problem is that no-one fore-saw(??) Take on Helicopters when he released his addons.

IMO it's fair to assume that the content can be used in such a closely related game; same engine as A2/OA, basically with just different content.

Think about it. Who gave express permission to allow their A2 addons to be used in OA? Im pretty sure basically nobody.

But it's fair to assume it can be used in OA and is also widely accepted :)

Now I agree that OA is closer to A2 than TKOH is, but imo still close enough. Heck A1 content is even used to some extent in A2.

Why would anyone wanna limit their addon usage in the BIS games universe?

Who does it aid by disallowing it, and who does it hurt by allowing it?

IMO this comes somewhat down to common sense - for the lack of a better word.

Obviously, if the author expressively denies usage of his content in TKOH, it should be respected. Do not get me wrong.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Sickboy

[max power 21]

I think that the hard and fast rule on this sort of thing is that you ought to (read: must) abide by the license that the work was distributed under. Works distributed under no license are considered to be copyrighted, which is the most restrictive license possible.

It is my experience that BIS allows forward porting but not backward. Do not take my word that this is BIS's policy, though. It is always best to ask first. Another thing to consider is Take On is also an unprecedented beast in that it is not part of the Arma series.

Here is some reading about what BIS staff have said in the past regarding the community and addon makers' rights.

Why Licenses Do Matter by Maruk, BIS CEO

Clarification of the MLODs Release Issue by Placebo, Head Moderator

Addon/Mod Ownership Q&A by Placebo, Head Moderator

ATTN: Addon Makers - Rules of content permissions. by w0lle, Moderator

There may be one more which I am forgetting. And, of course, there is the forum rules:

§20) Posting addon/mod other content without permission

For many years this community has been known as the premium addon/mod creating community, people work tirelessly and in great detail to create fantastic addons/mods/missions/campaigns to release for free so that everyone benefits, including Bohemia Interactive. There are a few simple rules in place to provide the respect to these creative people/groups that they deserve:

The first and most fundamental rule is that you must seek permission to alter someone's work, to mirror it or use it in any way other than for personal use. No permission, no editing, no mirroring, no adding to your mod pack, no editing and sharing around your private squad, none of that is acceptable.

Obviously we cannot unfortunately control what people do outside of these forums, however on these forums you must follow this rule, if a person/team post a thread to share an addon/mod using content from someone else without permission and we receive a complaint then the mod thread will be closed until the issue is resolved and the forum member(s) risks being permanently banned from these forums for taking someone's work without permission.

This isn't just limited to re-using content in addons/mods/missions however, it's not acceptable to edit someone's work without permission and then to post screenshots of it on the forums (even if the edited addon/mod is purely for personal use), it's also not acceptable to edit someone's work, or use someone's work in any way that you don't have permission for and then to create videos which you post on these forums, doing any of the above without the permission of the original creators risks a permanent ban, for individuals, for whole mod teams or squads.

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 AM ----------

IMO:

3; Modifying and distributing Abandoned projects where one has tried extensively to contact the original author, is afaik generally acceptable. As long as you are prepared to pull the content if the author would ever return and demand removal.

This is a touchy one.

The official word is that you must go through an extensive process of trying to contact the original author. If you do not receive an answer, then you must seek help from the forums staff, preferably Placebo, and provide 'proof' of your efforts to get in touch with the author. If your proof is acceptable, Placebo or someone will assist you in getting in touch with that author. After that, some length of time must be waited, at which point a judgment call will be made by the forum staff (Placebo) based on the license or implied wishes of the author, if any. The forum staff will never countermand a work's license, however, regardless of its age or state.

On a personal note, if I catch anyone deeming projects 'abandoned' and altering them without permission or due course, I will ban them on the spot. I also do not support the 'waiting period' rule and I will not participate in that process, or declare any work, regardless of its type or date of authoring, 'free-to-alter' without the expressed, written approval by the original author. I feel I do not have the right to do so. I will however support those who are trying to get in touch with authors and I will do my best to try to assist you in those matters.

For officially abandoned projects, see The Orphaned Projects Thread.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Max Power

[PuFu 4600]

i agree with Theo wholeheartedly:

the fact that an addon creator is unreachable or purely left the addon scene does NOT mean his content is up for the grabs.

Surely, if that particular content works as it was released for an earlier version without any alterations, then:

1. it doesn't need to be re-released, so it could be used as it is, unless the author specified in his license that the said content is to be used ONLY with/within specific games.

2. if modification to configs are necessary, a 3rd party could write an independent new config and release that separately, without touching the original files.

regarding BIS content, the files or .pbos should never be released separately for the ppl who don't own previous titles (A2/oa) (for instance releasing all the .pbos needed in order to have the CO islands working with TKOH)...

either way, sending a PM/e-mail is not such a big deal and besides it's a sign of respecting the IP rights and work. Doubt one willl get a negative answer, especially when the original files are NOT messed with...

Edited November 28, 2011 by PuFu

[jedra 11]

I can see that when it comes to 'solid assets' like Islands and models the rules are probably already good enough and it is common sense to contact the author to get permission. With abandoned projects this becomes harder but the rules are in place. Thanks for the clarification on this.

When it comes to scripts it's a tougher one. In the past I have grabbed pieces of script from here there and everywhere to make missions and acknowledged as appropriate. In Arma world this seems to be an acceptable way of doing things.

With ToH there has already been one instance where a script author has specifically stated that permission is NOT granted to use their scripts in ToH. I fully respect that. However, if I see a script and make changes and then add it to a ToH mission, is it still the original authors script? I neither want to offend anyone or explicitly go against their wishes, but it might be hard to avoid this with the amount of scripts already available that would work in ToH.

My aim here is not to berate the original script writer because without them my knowledge would be nothing, but it would be nice if there was an understanding that allowed scripts from Arma to be used in ToH without everyone treading on eggshells so to speak.

I dunno, maybe I am making a bigger issue of this than it needs to be. I am just a bit nervous now when I am building ToH missions because I can't remember where I got a specific few lines of script from to ask the author!

[maddogx 13]

Scripts are a difficult case because they come in plain text form, essentially making them "open source". Even if the author releases them under a restrictive license, he can hardly stop people from reading and "learning from" the code, unless he/she does some serious obfuscation work.

So scripts are indeed a grey area. If you look at someone elses script and use that knowledge to write your own version, at what point does it become a case of "copying", assuming you're not just rewriting it verbatim, line for line? To what point can script authors claim "ownership" of abstract scripting concepts?

[max power 21]

The thing with intellectual property is that it does not imply form, but rather the ideas behind it. Distinctly, coders seem to be much more open to sharing concepts and ideas than artists are to sharing models and textures, on average, in my experience. Never-the-less, I don't personally see much to distinguish code from any other form of intellectual property. In any case, examining the license and/or asking is probably the best policy.

[celery 8]

If you need something to happen in your mission, there are only so many ways to write it. Hence, if there's already a script for what you want to happen, it should be obvious that it can be used without explicit permission. Of course it's still proper etiquette to credit 3rd party content.

My missions usually have a readme that states the open source status of my scripts, but only because otherwise I'd get a flood of permission requests.

[W0lle 1052]

Scripts are indeed a bit problematic, simply because often there is only one way to script something.

Just some randomly picked line:

this setPos ((nearestBuilding this) buildingPos 10)

How else you would script this? This surely isn't anything worth protecting, else no one could use this anymore.

A script with just a few such basic lines added surely is nothing only a few people can do.

Using complete scripts, and esp. complex ones you don't write in 2 minutes are another thing of course. Here the original creators must be asked before they are used in your missions.

Bottom line is: Just using the work from someone else because it has been released is not tolerated here. No one gets hurt by sending a polite request to use the work.

Everyone stealing the intellectual property from someone just because he can will be punished. No matter who it is, no matter why.

[rksl-rock 1301]

I do see TKOH as a totally new game. Not an expansion to A2 as with OA as Sickboy suggests. Regardless of the engine's similarities.

This probably isn't the best thread to debate the technical aspects but as I understand it, a lot of work is required to "upgrade" an addon to exploit the full TKOH feature set. Efforts that would need the editing of the original addon (I've not had the time to investigate properly myself so give me some slack on this). I've never been keen on anyone altering my own work as experience has taught us it just creates more support headaches for us.

I'll be very honest here. I'm not a fan of ports and I don't want my RKSL stuff in TOKH for varying reasons. Mostly due to the inevitable demands for support etc. (We already get a lot of requests for private ports and mods we didn't authorise including half a dozen TKOH demands) Neither UNN or I have the time for it right now. So I'd like to see an enforcement of the existing permissions process as per the official statments Max Power linked to.

Having said all that, if there is a config replacement method that does not require the dissection of the original files and "updates" the addon without altering the original then I don't see any reason to object.(As long as the addon stay within the BIS game franchise and doesnt breach our EULAs)

Edited November 29, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[4 IN 1 0]

@RKSL

I don't think there will any easy way to do this without temper with the config, fuselage model and texture handling wise there should not be too many difference, but it is the cockpit/FM/supplement systems that are very different, and since there isn't any source model release by BI yet, it will be sometime before we have the "know how to".

P.S. Or through I do not expect any new thing from your team due to IP thieving, I do hope you can give us some direction once you are willing to :)

[sickboy 13]

Just to be sure I wasn't misinterpreted; I only meant to agree with allowing addons to be used in TKOH, this means no modification without explicit authorization of the Author.

@Max Power: Gotcha - I was writing a quick list, but agree that when was unable to contact the author, it should be taken up with the Moderators.

[jedra 11]

One of the other things that prompted me to ask the question was without porting stuff across, how sustainable is Take On Helicopters?

Arma benefited from the work done in OFP, Arma 2 from Arma and OA from Arma 2. One of the success factors of the franchise (and I do hate that word, so sorry about that) is that they have all benefitted from the previous incarnation reasonably quickly. Should ToH be treated by the community as a standalone game I worry for it's longevity. I'm not saying there should be a free for all though!

On the other hand, if the flight model from ToH is ported into Arma 3 then there is an argument that ToH might become redundant anyway?

On the bright side, it may encourage a whole new generation of addon makers if content is less available than with the Arma series.

Anyway, I think that the situation is clear and when using scripts common sense and respect to the original authors needs to be applied.

[rksl-rock 1301]

@RKSL

...

P.S. Or through I do not expect any new thing from your team due to IP thieving, I do hope you can give us some direction once you are willing to :)

Theres plenty new RKSL stuff nearly ready to go for ArmA2/OA/CO. Just not for TKOH. :p