Black Shark 2 Upgrade/Patch is out!

[Beagle 684]

Yah, I do own A-10 and I generally like ED's games but paying for things I already own is much the same as DLC for me, I'm not interested.

Release the game, charge me a fair price and I'm happy. Release an expansion 6 months or more after release and I am still happy.

These days it's 'release the game', 'release DLC 24 hours after the game' and then 'bronze edition, silver edition, platinum edition and 2.0 etc'.

It's all about getting people's money now with no consideration for anything else and it's sad to see ED go down that road.

Maybe they have to because A-10 did not sell well. Just look at how popular the abandoned FC2 and BS1 still is on the servers. Most players want high going fastmovers not low hauling bombtrucks or defenseless coaxial kitchen blenders.

[bangtail 0]

I like Black Shark but renaming version 1.0 to 2.0 and reselling it is borderline dishonest IMHO.

2.0 implies a new game and that's not up for debate, what they've released is a glorified patch at best and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

[Beagle 684]

I like Black Shark but renaming version 1.0 to 2.0 and reselling it is borderline dishonest IMHO.

2.0 implies a new game and that's not up for debate, what they've released is a glorified patch at best and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

FC2 also just brought the terrain from BS1...you lost the whole crimean peninsula and gained a boring part of georgia...that with a few new models from BS1 and the compatibility = new Game.

I done it once and it was barely worth it, ED won't fool me twice.

[Innomadic 10]

Does anyone have any screens to show what is indeed "improved"?

[Beagle 684]

Does anyone have any screens to show what is indeed "improved"?

The improvement is the graphics like grass clutter and HDR from DCS:A-10 and a new part of Georgia with Tbilisi on it.

If you have A-10 theres nothing new, the Helos is still the same, performs the same and look the same.

[GGTharos 10]

The improvement also includes some mission editor features and some heli AI features that are not yet present in A-10C.

The update to the cockpit, the sounds for the helicopter, the heli AI update are all specific to the Ka-50 alone. Radios had to be updated to work in the new environment. There's a new campaign, new FARPs. These are new features specific to BS2, and do not come from A-10C.

There's lots of work that had to be done - I do realize a lot of that is 'under the hood' and some people might either not care or not notice them. It isn't possible to please everyone, but, no, it isn't just a 're-sold game'. Real work went into making BS2 happen.

If you don't think it gives you value for the money, no one is forcing you to buy it, either. ED is obviously of the opinion that the hours they've put into it are worth compensation.

Also, disclaimer for those of you who might not know: I am a mod on the ED forums, and I am also a beta tester for their products.

Edited November 4, 2011 by GGTharos

[bangtail 0]

Firstly, thanks for coming here and letting us hear your point of view :D

I still maintain that this is a patch, and even if you were going to charge for it, it should not have been called Black Shark 2.0, as this very clearly implies it is a totally new product.

The most serious issue I have with this practice is that it sets a precedent which I (and many other gamers) are not comfortable with and it is especially distressing to see it coming from a reputable and respected developer such as ED.

JM2C

[GGTharos 10]

Firstly, thanks for coming here and letting us hear your point of view :D

No problem :)

I still maintain that this is a patch, and even if you were going to charge for it, it should not have been called Black Shark 2.0, as this very clearly implies it is a totally new product.

Ok - I don't want to argue what is a patch vs. what isn't, obviously aside from strict definitions, one way or another what matters to you is perceived value for you. :)

I'm still of the opinion that BS2 is a proper upgrade, and others who have purchased BS2 hold the same opinion, so there are definitely two shcools of thought on the matter - we have some feedback that is positive as well:

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=81026

The most serious issue I have with this practice is that it sets a precedent which I (and many other gamers) are not comfortable with and it is especially distressing to see it coming from a reputable and respected developer such as ED.

JM2C

The truth is that it is not viable to do upkeep for free. I understand concerns for future and existing products, and so does ED, I'm sure. I don't have the answers to questions written or implied, other than to say that there is always room for improvement, and ED always tries to improve. People sometimes say that ED doesn't listen, but I know for a fact that this is not true.

Edited November 4, 2011 by GGTharos

[bangtail 0]

I think what it boils down to is that ED are charging $20.00 (at a minimum) for what is, by definition, a patch. I don't want to argue about it either because I think we are both on the same page.

I'll qualify that, I understand that with a niche product, such as a 'hardcore' flight sim, you are working with a lot less revenue than more mainstream games. I also fully understand what kind of a technical undertaking the development and upkeep of said type of game entails.

I'm not angry that I bought BS 2.0 as it still represents significantly better value than 99% of the schlock on the market today. I am, as I said previously, more upset by the the implication of a totally new game. I freely admitted that I failed to do my research concerning BS 2.0 and basically hit the 'buy it' button on the strength of my previous experiences with ED.

I know I said I wouldn't be buying from ED again but that was more of a 'kneejerk' reaction to the situation. Having said that, I think it would be helpful to many users if content updates were labelled as such and not as a totally new version number which is very misleading.

Again, thanks for coming here and sharing your views :)

Edited November 4, 2011 by BangTail

[GGTharos 10]

No problem, and thanks for the responses :)

[Tonci87 163]

@GGTharos, could you please say something regarding the AI improvements?

Enemy Tanks in 1.02 are really just sitting ducks if you don´t come to close to them. You can take out one by one. In a real situation they would deploy smokescreens and try to find some cover or concealment. Are they doing that now? And what do you mean by Heli AI update?

EDIT:

And does this

http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=1320290&postcount=8

mean that you can see the Laserbeam with NV on?

Edited November 4, 2011 by Tonci87

[GGTharos 10]

@GGTharos, could you please say something regarding the AI improvements?

Sure thing, I'll try to answer your questions in as much depth as I can. Disclaimer: AI isn't at the point where it can be smart in any game, the devs can only attempt to improve on what they have :)

Enemy Tanks in 1.02 are really just sitting ducks if you don´t come to close to them. You can take out one by one. In a real situation they would deploy smokescreens and try to find some cover or concealment. Are they doing that now? And what do you mean by Heli AI update?

I'll start with the heli AI update:

You will notice your wingman to be more responsive, more capable of executing your orders, less prone to wandering off at random, and in general a lot more manageable.

For the ground vehicles:

When ground vehicles spot you or are attacked, they will take up defensive positions. If they happen to be on the move, they'll stop and scatter. Once the danger passes, they'll move on.

In some cases they might still feel like sitting ducks, in others they might now surprise you.

I won't say there's no room for improvement left - they could definitely still have added capabilities like using very effective countermeasures etc, and make themselves quite a painful challenge depending on skill, but we can't everything all at once :)

EDIT:

And does this

http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=1320290&postcount=8

mean that you can see the Laserbeam with NV on?

I haven't tried this myself but yes. Specifically, you can see the IR pointer (it is a laser, but it isn't used for guidance. It's quite literally just a laser pointer in the IR spectrum which the NVGs are still sensitive to). An A-10C could point something out for a Ka-50, but the Ka-50's own lasers are not visible to NVG's (the frequency is much lower).

I hope that answers your questions! :)

[Tonci87 163]

Sure thing, I'll try to answer your questions in as much depth as I can. Disclaimer: AI isn't at the point where it can be smart in any game, the devs can only attempt to improve on what they have :)

I'll start with the heli AI update:

You will notice your wingman to be more responsive, more capable of executing your orders, less prone to wandering off at random, and in general a lot more manageable.

For the ground vehicles:

When ground vehicles spot you or are attacked, they will take up defensive positions. If they happen to be on the move, they'll stop and scatter. Once the danger passes, they'll move on.

In some cases they might still feel like sitting ducks, in others they might now surprise you.

I won't say there's no room for improvement left - they could definitely still have added capabilities like using very effective countermeasures etc, and make themselves quite a painful challenge depending on skill, but we can't everything all at once :)

I haven't tried this myself but yes. Specifically, you can see the IR pointer (it is a laser, but it isn't used for guidance. It's quite literally just a laser pointer in the IR spectrum which the NVGs are still sensitive to). An A-10C could point something out for a Ka-50, but the Ka-50's own lasers are not visible to NVG's (the frequency is much lower).

I hope that answers your questions! :)

Thank you for your answers.

But do the Tanks deploy smokescreens? I think that I have read this somewhere regarding DCS A-10 :confused:

[GGTharos 10]

Yes, they do. There are issues with FPS etc if they are left on for too long (so they're extremely short-lived right now), as well as it would be nice to add multi-spectral smoke to block IR. As I said, there's always room for improvement.

[Tonci87 163]

That is always true. Did you play the new campaign? Can you say something about it?

[GGTharos 10]

Unfortunately I did not test the campaign, but if I see someone's review of it I could point you to it.

Some people have briefly expressed satisfaction with it so far :)

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

A statement from EB1 (Assistant Producer for ED):

To help alleviate some of concerns raised here about the general direction of DCS development, I can say that ED understands that production of individual titles, which need to be continually updated separately in order maintain compatibility is not a sustainable system in the long term. It continues to be our goal to develop a truly modular system with a unified world into which individual products can be plugged into and maintained up to date. Creating a technological and financial infrastructure for such a system is challenging, time-consuming and expensive, in particular when the realism bar for player-controlled and AI units, as well as the rest of the virtual world are so high. We know this has been a vision for many simmers and sim developers for a long time, including ED, but there is a reason why it hasn't happened yet. We will continue to work to try and make it a reality.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1320561&postcount=860

[Tonci87 163]

Unfortunately I did not test the campaign, but if I see someone's review of it I could point you to it.

Thanks

[hellfire257 3]

You can make statements all you want, it wont change the fact that some of your customers have lost faith and trust in the company. Those things are hard to get, but so easy to lose. I believe it was Rexehuk who coined the phrase "EagleLienamics". I never agreed with him at first but now it's ringing true.

[shadowze 1]

Nothing quite like coming on to another heli simulator devs forums he pays for and hawking your dodgy shoddy wares , eh ?

[GGTharos 10]

... you mean like this?

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=71028

Ah, no, you meant something else. You can stand there and hurl insults all day long, but it won't get you far :)

[shadowze 1]

lols :)

Suprised you have time to reply , deleting posts must take up a lot of time

Oh and BIS dont do shoddy wares , they support their customers properly and dont try to gouge more

money out of them.

Edited November 4, 2011 by shadowze

[nodunit 397]

Getting a tad personal here aren't we guys.

[hellfire257 3]

Looks like this got a mention in Rock Paper Shotgun... :\

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/04/the-flare-path-tomorrows-chip-wrappers/

Boy oh boy what a mess.

[shadowze 1]

a quote

ED’s back catalogue is a mess of overlapping and inter-operable sims. Instead of pursuing a logical Rise of Flight-style approach – funding development purely through optional DLC and retail bundles – they’ve muddied the waters by insisting loyal customers pay to synchronise the content they already own. Hopefully the furore will encourage a rethink or at the very least a clear statement of intent from ED. While I struggled with their last offering, the studio are one of the pillars of sim development, and it hurts to watch them making life difficult for themselves.

[jblackrupert 14]

The rise of flight guys are charging $8-15 for a plane and $5 for a compass.

They gave in an made a free version of ROF because of the people refusing to buy into their greed.

The ROF patches are mostly just an excuse to slip in another overpriced plane.

Check the train sims on steam, those guys are pumping out the overpriced crap so often you'll need a terabyte drive just to hold the DLC.

Edited November 5, 2011 by jblackrupert