Gun politics

[HyperU2 11]

When someone states that gun accidents are more likely to occur in homes that have guns rather than those without it's hard to take them seriously.

[mosh 0]

When someone states that gun accidents are more likely to occur in homes that have guns rather than those without it's hard to take them seriously.

:)

So is that like saying people who fly are more likely to be involved in a plane wreck than those who don't?

I'm glad I have many guns and get to enjoy using them anytime I want. But please, meddling foreigners, humor me some more on why I shouldn't. ;)

[HyperU2 11]

Exactly, and suicides shouldn't ever enter into the discussion. Depressed people will always off themselves. Japan kicks our asses at those numbers and they're gun free. It's a non issue.

[dysta 10]

So because it is [apparently] dangerous, we should ban it outright?

You know more people are killed every year in car accidents than with firearms, right? (At least in the "West")

Maybe we should ban driving too because it is "dangerous to play with" ?

Firearm is a product of reason, and vehicle is a product of transport. It's illogical to talk together when they're in different purposes.

[[aps]gnat 28]

... meddling foreigners ...

Situational irony.

Anyhow. As so much of the research highlights, what the US has is very much a pure "culture" grown thing, going generation to generation, steming from way back in the frontier days.

.... maybe like bad teeth ;)

[Minutemen 10]

Just let me rebut some of the typical socialist "Guns must be baned because they are bad mkay" mindset.

a) million dollars advertisement and lobbying from the guns & weapons industry since decades,

Guns can be manufactured by every smaller gunsmith or even just a blacksmith. Even you could build a STEN likely machinegun in your workshop or garage.

But the inustry lobbing to FORBID such things because they wanna be the only trader, they want the monopoly!

And the Weapon industry deals with Tanks and Bombs, which cost millions of dollars each. And their partner in contract

b) pseudo-freedom "amendment 2" - historical - grandfather views,

(nice hint above: wheres your Abrams in the garage?)

Its the foundation of a modern state.

It puts the peasant on the same step as the knight and keeps the government in Controll.

Selfdefence is a nature given right. Everyone which says something different is a facist piece of trash and should emigrate to china.

c) archaic machoism?

Maybee. And even it would be, whats the problem?

Every man want to be a hunter and warrior. Even little boys start playing combat games by their own in age. Hell, even the word "game" comes from hunting.

What about

Sorry Man, but arguments about your personal freedome doesn't count for controllfreaks which hate everyone that isn't as weak as them.

The technics are fascinating ... but some things are to deadly to play with them.

So would you please turn in your car to the government so that we can film how it gets crushed by a steamroller?

If you go to a country where the sales of guns are more heavily restricted, not so many criminals have them. Almost none.

This is a lie which makes me more angry than anything else in this debate.

Even their would be no guns existing, they would make their own guns.

I mean, look at germany. Total ristriktet but the criminals own double the count of weapons as the legal owners do. And Gangs like the Hellsangles most times own them even legaly, because in such systems criminals can come up and do bigger bussiness untill they can legalize their crimes.

And these Motorbike gangs don't do just their little white trash dirty work, they rised up with the money they made(And protect with their firepower) by this dirty work.

America has 20-30 x the rate of gun homicides to other socio-economic comparable countries!!!

And most of the time Anti-Gun Controllfreaks use that number to mislead the viewer. America has about 13.000 homicides per year. But Anti-Gun Countrys like Columbia have 16.000 and Police State Russia has 32.000.

So a Gun ban is no guarantee for security. ( by the way, many of these dead people are also criminals shoot by other criminals in murder, has nothing to do with the ordinary citizen )

Enough of that for today...

If you want to ban my guns, get them by yourself. Get them from my could dead hands. There is no debate about the right to selfe defence, everyone has the right to own, make or trade guns.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Minutemen

[[aps]gnat 28]

So a Gun ban is no guarantee for security.

Yes, but to my point, the Australian demographic is VERY similar to US, and it worked well enough here. ANd it wasn't a "ban", simply reasonable controls.

.... Get them from my could dead hands. There is no debate about the right to selfe defence, everyone has the right to own, make or trade guns.

...... and here is that "culture" thing again.

[froggyluv 2136]

Well lets see here:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

2nd amendment to the U.S Constitution.

I'm curious as to what is the NRA and sympathizer position on any regulation at all.

For instance, no where in that amendment does it say "except for convicted Felons"

Also, Arms, what constitutes arms and are all arms allowed under this statute? Colonial militias I would guess had more then guns, maybe cannons and various explosives -are these types of devices also wanted?

Does NRA reject all regulation or like Supreme Court Justice Scalia ruled "the right to bear arms is not unlimited and is subject to reasonable prohibitions and regulations and subsequently federal court rulings have upheld existing gun prohibitions and regulations"..

...believe in reasonable regulations?

[HyperU2 11]

Maybe "well regulated" forbids convicts.

[froggyluv 2136]

Mmmm, don't think so:

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.

Source:http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html

Seems to imply they should be familiar with military manouvers and exercises.

[Beagle 684]

The whole idea of a militia beeing able to prohibit power missusage of a ruler is obsolete in 21. century exept in the case you keep tactical nukes and supercarriers under your house.

Come over it US boys... 1775 is long gone and so are the circumstances back then.

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Edited October 5, 2011 by Beagle

[Innomadic 10]

Gnat;2032627']Yes' date=' but to my point, the Australian demographic is VERY similar to US, and it worked well enough here. ANd it wasn't a "ban", simply reasonable controls.

[/quote']

Not ENTIRELY reasonable...Airsoft is a practical no-no due to BB guns being classified as automatic weapons. Owning a paintball marker is also in many ways harder than owning a rifle, from what i've been told.

But yeah, incredibly similar demographic...though some would say thats a bad thing.

[froggyluv 2136]

The whole idea of a militia beeing able to prohibit power missusage of a ruler is obsolete in 21. century exept in the case you keep tactical nukes and supercarriers under your house.

Come over it US boys... 1775 is long gone and so are the circumstances back then.

Edited October 5, 2011 by froggyluv

[HyperU2 11]

The whole idea of a militia beeing able to prohibit power missusage of a ruler is obsolete in 21. century exept in the case you keep tactical nukes and supercarriers under your house.

Come over it US boys... 1775 is long gone and so are the circumstances back then.

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I thought you had faith in the Iraq insurgency.

[Beagle 684]

I thought you had faith in the Iraq insurgency.

Well that's still not over...the whole middle east will settle back to business as usual in 2014 within months...they did this 200 years ago and they will do it again. But middle east is not the USA or Europe with that high grade on Orwell's Bigh Brother control institutions even the good old GDR StaSi could onyl dream off. Edited October 5, 2011 by Beagle

[Minutemen 10]

Gnat]...... and here is that "culture" thing again.

Thank god there is that culture thing. How many countries have such culture? The Americans and the Swiss, every other nations life under medieval like restrictions.

I'm curious as to what is the NRA and sympathizer position on any regulation at all.

...

...believe in reasonable regulations?

:rolleyes: regulated doesn't mean "Regulated by the government", it means regular armed and trained as regular troops.

Come over it US boys... 1775 is long gone and so are the circumstances back then.

Do you think the german peasants in 1524 could be oppressed and slaughterd if they had Henry Rifles or even AKs?

Hey, maybee these times are long ago, but that doesn't mean that Men changed so much. There are still tyrants and psychophatic rulers.

How many revolutions and uprisings happend in germany? And for what?

To be the payer for the EUssr?

And do you know how the german Government treat the People which believed the Anti-Gun Propaganda, that they will get amnesty if they would turn in their "illegal" firearms? I mean, how stupid is it to believe that? Ofcourse they got judged for the transporting and some of them were civil servants which got fired!

Hey, there is no debate about freedome. There is no debate on restrictions of self defence against tyrants and criminals. It just dissarms people which obey the law.

GYkO_3dZAYg

Edited October 5, 2011 by Minutemen

[froggyluv 2136]

regulated doesn't mean "Regulated by the government", it means regular armed and trained as regular troops.

Yes, I know that. Try to read a little better next time - In the context of Justice Scalia's statement -he is talking about firearm rules and prohibitions. The "well regulated militia" statement was already covered if you read further ;)

[OrLoK 20]

Hello all

Another late late reply @ capulet (not having a go at you, mate :) )

and more of a general observation.

Guns and Beer are not a good mix.

(Actually quoted "at" me by a police sniper who was on my office roof guarding the Queen Mum having a do in Claridges, after offering him a beer before he and his buddy set up. I felt a right tit.)

A bit of an on topic edit, I would love to own many, many weapons, but I don't want to live in a country where any one else does.

I'm not being deliberately difficult, but I just don't know of anyone I'd truly trust with a loaded weapon.

I suppose in countries that have home gun ownership the threat of the other chap/chapess having the posibility of having a gun is supposed to negate itself in a Mutually Assured Destruction kind of way.

I understand people's feelings towards the right to bear arms and as is especially in the news at the moment, the "good" reasons for doing so.

I don't think with such opposing stances, gun ownership will eve be anything *we* can all agree on.

A idea of a solution to help towards less deaths though would be to portray guns in the media in a more realistic way so folk really know the dangers they *can* pose and no matter how much of a hero you are, getting hit by a bullet *hurts*.

An perhaps glorify them less as sexy fashion items.

Bugger it, I dont know...

rgds

LoK

Edited October 5, 2011 by orlok

[Beagle 684]

Do you think the german peasants in 1524 could be oppressed and slaughterd if they had Henry Rifles or even AKs?

The peasants army was good equiped in the later stages of the peasants war...they simply lacked the manpower and experience that the regular armies had that blew them to pieces with cannons and slaughterd them with halberts in close combat. But in fact back in that time firearms had more of a psychological impact in that kind of battles.

But also today I don't think a peasant army armed with HUnting rifles and sportign pistoel can do much about a modern army...only deliver a few skirmishes at best.

And by the way...germany is not disarmed...we have our own kind of NRA and it has strong influence in state and local politics.

Most of our german gun clubs are actualy funded by local administration money and in fact the gun law in germany was eased, we can no buy assault rifles too...it is just the entry age that was rised and we now have to proof that we store our guns in class B safes. the restrictive part in german gun law is only about where to shoot and how to store and transport...and the fact that you can not own more than 5 automatic or repeating weapons.

I'm a gun owner myself.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Beagle

[Minutemen 10]

But also today I don't think a peasant army armed with HUnting rifles and sportign pistoel can do much about a modern army...only deliver a few skirmishes at best.

Irregular Warfare is the main doctrine in the swiss army and it was the main doctrine in the yugoslawian army. Even bad equiped partisans could do a lot of trouble to a regular army. Ofcourse mainly in the logistic sector and moral.

...we have our own kind of NRA and it has strong influence in state and local politics.

See, thats the problem. The NRA is a puppet to agree on false compromise. Gunowners of America is a much more important group for pro-gun lobbieng.

Most of our german gun clubs are ...

just society for traditional costumes and crackerbarrel boozing.

the restrictive part in germen gun lawis only abozt where to shoot and how to store and transport...and the fact that you can not own more than 5 automatic or repeating weapons.

Which means the restrictive thing is everything.

Hey i read Gunlaws in germany from 1933 untill now and they get worse and worse(JPFO also wrote about it). Didn't you forgett something? Maybee the search without a warrent thing?

Ouh its only about .. how this sounds. Typical.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Minutemen

[Beagle 684]

just society for traditional costumes and crackerbarrel boozing.

Yeah nice isn't it ;)

There are more than this costume traditional "Schützen" clubs.

Look here

BDMP

you have to use a translator, no english homepage available. But I know you will say because the members are army reservist and policemen that is only a federal state slave association....but keep in mind that every one that was a simple conscript once can get membership.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Beagle

[Minutemen 10]

Look here

BDMP

This is restricted for police and law enforcement and has nothing to do with the right to gunownership. Combat Shooting for civilians is totaly forbidden in germany and so this is no argument in this debate.

"Hey you must join our military and serve nine to six month and get ordered about to do something which is normaly every free mens right."

As i said, thats so typical.

And IPSC Shooting clubs for civilians are not just a joke in their technique, but also total regulated.

[Beagle 684]

This is restricted for police and law enforcement and has nothing to do with the right to gunownership. Combat Shooting for civilians is totaly forbidden in germany and so this is no argument in this debate.

"Hey you must join our military and serve nine to six month and get ordered about to do something which is normaly every free mens right."

As i said, thats so typical.

And IPSC Shooting clubs for civilians are not just a joke in their technique, but also total regulated.

Dude...the BDMP is not an exclusice club...as I told you... conscription was ceased in this years the first time in recent german history...there are around 500.000 of army reservist in an age considered fit for service in the country right now. We do combat shooting on a regular base...despite I never wore an official Uniform again for 16 Years now. All I do is pay my 30€ a year for membership in the army reservists association.

But it seems your problem hereby is that federal agencies are involved?

Sorry, I can't see a problem in that. That's much better than everyone gunrunning once in a while just because he feels that way some day.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Beagle

[mosh 0]

Dude...the BDMP is ot a exclusice club..as i told you...conscription was ceased in this years the first time in germen history...there are around 500.000 of army reservist in an age considered fir for service in the country right now. We do combat shooting on a regular base...despite I never wore an official Uniform again for 16 Years now. All I do is pay my 30€ a year for membership in the army reservists association.

But it seems your problem hereby is that federal agencies are involved?

Sorry, I can't see a problem in that. That's much bettr than everyone gunrrunnig once in a while just because he feels that way some day.

I don't pay my government $30 a year for the right to shoot my gun. Nor do I have to shoot it on a military base.

And I shoot often... just because I feel like it some days.

I agree about the culture thing. Yes it's in my culture. It's the way I was raised. It's a daily part of my life. But I don't see that as a bad thing people need to keep bringing up. I'm proud of my culture.

It is not the wild west here. Missouri is an open carry state which means unless a particular county is against it, you are allowed to carry a pistol on your side in plain view. Yet I see very, very few people doing it (to be honest, have only seen a few ever). I don't do it myself either, but I can. We do have laws and restrictions as well. It is not just some free for all where everyone is carrying rifles and pistols around... unless of course it's deer season. ;)

It's really not as bad as the few homicidal nut jobs we have over here make it look. If they didn't have a gun they would find some other means of killing (heard that one before I'm sure). I'm just glad I can protect myself if I ever encounter one... and of course I hope I never have to.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Mosh

[Minutemen 10]

Dude...the BDMP is ot a exclusice club..as i told you...conscription was ceased in this years the first time in germen history...there are around 500.000 of army reservist in an age considered fir for service in the country right now. We do combat shooting on a regular base...despite I never wore an official Uniform again for 16 Years now. All I do is pay my 30€ a year for membership in the army reservists association.

1. Its narrowed to former military members. First point of restriction.

2. Combat shooting is forbidden for public shooting clubs and if you can do it only on a "regular base" it is also a heavily restricted.

3. Do pay for the membership, to pay for the gun ownership, to pay for the conditions(as class B safes) is another heavy restriction.

Can the honest people which life in criminal areas meet conditions and own a gun to protect their family and protery? Nooo, and even if they could, its forbidden to carrieng a gun for the worst case scenario.

I mean, how do you call such conditions? Has nothing to do with freedome or the right to selfdefence, its tyrannical garbage.

But it seems your problem hereby is that federal agencies are involved?

Sorry, I can't see a problem in that.

You, as a german, do not understand how it could be that someone has a problem with federal agencies? How many of them do you have? Did they work for free? How about looking for a family album of yours and mark all the people which were killed by the government or died by government createt circumstances?

That's much bettr than everyone gunrrunnig once in a while just because he feels that way some day.

Who shoot the texas tower shooter?

If there is a madman running around and shooting people at the mall while i do the shopping, you can bet that i would shoot back.