Add something like UPSMON by default

[metalcraze 290]

Although the question is - why it still isn't there?

- its scripts don't affect AI all the time - only when mission maker chooses so

- it lets AIs patrol the designated area in an intelligent manner

- it lets AI squads to share info about enemies between themselves providing for a more realistic response to attacks

- it lets AI squads plant mines on nearby roads

- it lets AI squads occupy buildings and rooftops and engage from there

- it lets AI use defensive gear in the designated area

- when a gunner on the car is taken out - the other enemy may take his place instead of leaving driver to sit there waiting until you'll kill him

- finally AIs know how to deploy smoke (and not spam it either) with it

So why not add scripting functionality like this by default into AA3?

It's completely non-intrusive unlike AI mods because any of those functions are used only when mission maker wishes so. And it's very popular among mission makers as well.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

As long as it can be deactivated by a mission maker without a hazzle sure. :)

[katipo66 94]

This and a combination of something like Norrins ai respawn and a few other snippets from other mods

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Nay for two reasons:

1) Does too much of its own, creates conflict with other mission design. Also tend (or tended, haven't used it in a while) to be quite a resource hog. Not talking about UPSMON in particular, but scripted solutions in general.

2) After release there would be no more development on it, compared to the scripted solution we know today. Note that I do like what it does, I just prefer implementing it in a way that I have control over it.

[dmarkwick 261]

Dac ftw :)

[metalcraze 290]

1) Does too much of its own

As I've said

It's completely non-intrusive unlike AI mods because any of those functions are used only when mission maker wishes so

2) After release there would be no more development on it

2 years later BIS still keeps adding new scripting commands and AI improvements into AA2 - so I don't see why they will drop this one. Considering that AI seems to be one of the main priorities in AA3.

Stuff like ability for AI to cover itself with smoke, call in artillery and reinforcements, use nearby static defences (when allowed by mission maker of course) should've been there from the start.

I mean in vanilla when you are taking out the gunner on car mounted rocket launcher it stays that way. With UPSMON the closest AI may grab it and still pose a threat to your tanks. It's realistic.

[jackass888 0]

Yes please! The mission just have to be adapted to a more realistic AI, so that it doesn't become too difficult...

[KC Grimes 79]

I think the "smarter AI" part would be good, but hey, everybody wants that. AI moving from a back seat to Gunner is just... realistic. Personally I never use UPSMON in my own missions because I don't like the setup, call me picky.

What I'm saying is, I'd be happy to see ideas for AI adaptation from UPSMON in A3, but don't want to be setting up by making squares and editing random scripts for a simple mission that normally wouldn't use them.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

2 years later BIS still keeps adding new scripting commands and AI improvements into AA2 - so I don't see why they will drop this one. Considering that AI seems to be one of the main priorities in AA3.

2 years later, I'm still getting script errors and animation lockups from battlefield clearance. Check out BIS_fnc_taskDefend, it still doesn't keep guns mounted. Why do you think a UPSMON/DAC/Whatever implementation would receive any better treatment? Also note that BIS_fnc_taskDefend is created that way for a reason - it's a one time thing, which doesn't create any overhead.

Stuff like ability for AI to cover itself with smoke, call in artillery and reinforcements, use nearby static defences (when allowed by mission maker of course) should've been there from the start.

Smoke is a double edged sword. If you are made, no smoke will hide you. The AI is able to track your movements and make precision shots at you while you can see nothing. Smoke is exactly like grass - it will help you remain undetected, but once detected there is no such thing as breaking contact through concealment and obscuration. I let them use arty and mortar smoke in Domino, and trust me - it's annoying :p

As for AI calling in artillery, I have yet to see a perfect implementation of it - the scope of the considerations are humongous. You can see my attempt in Domino (bat\AiArty.fsm), which I'm still not happy with, especially since it doesn't attempt to control AI forces within danger zone. Considerations examples:

* Does AI have air units in the area? Deny the mission.

* How much is needed?

* Adjustment required? Is area preregistered?

* AI units in the area? Choose appropriate mission. (ref my smoke usage).

* Is it dark? Can AI see in the dark? Special need just to get illumination that actually helps AI.

* If illumination, enough guns and rounds for coordinated mission?

* Weather (rain, overcast, and wind) have an impact on the decision making?

* Any ROE considerations? Civilians? I only have this for our own arty guys though.

Artillery is complex. I would hate a standard where everything about it is simplified just to cause a lot of bangs.

I mean in vanilla when you are taking out the gunner on car mounted rocket launcher it stays that way. With UPSMON the closest AI may grab it and still pose a threat to your tanks. It's realistic.

It is? I've served as a combat engineer and I still don't know how to operate a TOW or an Mk19. I rule at digging though. And handle explosives. How many rounds of det cord to clip a 12" tree? I know, err, knew :p as it was part of my job. But would an infantryman or pilot know? Probably not.

Although, I guess I might figure out an RPG-7 or M136 if I found one (but most likely not a Javelin or Stinger without proper training), so in some cases it might be more realistic. But not for everything. Would it enhance the game? Probably.

But it comes down to development. It took UPSMON/DAC/Whatever ages to get where they are today, and still being refined. But functions like BIS_fnc_inTrigger still only handles triggers - no time spent on improving it to include locations and markers.

Now I wouldn't mind having easy access to adjustable fsms I could use for parts of this, but not this all or nothing thing. The all option would require too many options to be usable, and I just don't see it feasible to develop.

If the campaign is more dynamic than previously done, rest assured there will be many new code toys for us to play with pretty much as is, or for developers of UPSMON/DAC/Whatever to implement in their versions.

[metalcraze 290]

Smoke is a double edged sword. If you are made, no smoke will hide you. The AI is able to track your movements and make precision shots at you while you can see nothing. Smoke is exactly like grass - it will help you remain undetected, but once detected there is no such thing as breaking contact through concealment and obscuration.

Which is not true. You can easily hide in a grass and smoke during engagement. Especially smoke. Smoke was my life saviour countless times. Heck I was healing wounded after dropping smoke in an open field and AI couldn't hit me. Doesn't matter if it's vanilla or ACE.

Also I get the impression that BIS dumbed down the AI in 1.59 in this regard... Because the moment I run behind the bush is the moment AI stops trying to kill me. While I have no problem putting everything I got into a bush on a slightest suspicion that an enemy may be there. I start suspecting that the smoke may be affected as well.

Artillery is complex. I would hate a standard where everything about it is simplified just to cause a lot of bangs.

Better having some simple bangs than not having them. UPSMON lets them call in artillery strikes in a dynamic fashion at your position. Conditions for when to use those bangs are of course depend on mission maker.

Artillery is but only one of the things AI can do with UPSMON. I really wonder why people vote against it as it actually makes AI something more than just turrets without any sense of communication suppressing you.

Nothing stops BIS from using the similar code to what's there in UPSMON already. It took ages right - but it doesn't take ages to copy something that is already created and should've been there in the first place.

Edited July 15, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

I use the Echo artillery solution (for AI) and it's about as good as it gets. I do manage to find myself in arty zones sometimes, but that's me being Rambo :)

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I'm a horse: nay.

[neokika 62]

A huge no on this.

• Scripted solutions is no solution. ;)
  
• AI should be able to use buildings, communicate by themselves without any scripting workaround.
  
• I have a feeling that BI is going to surprise us this time with improved AI.
  

Nothing stops BIS from using the similar code to what's there in UPSMON already. It took ages right - but it doesn't take ages to copy something that is already created and should've been there in the first place.

:pet5:

[*LK1* 10]

voted yay.

[metalcraze 290]

[*]Scripted solutions is no solution. ;)

[*]AI should be able to use buildings, communicate by themselves without any scripting workaround.

You do realize that whole AI is built around scripts?

[*]I have a feeling that BI is going to surprise us this time with improved AI.

:pet5:

Nothing stopped BIS from copying Chain of Command (known as High Command), Capture The Island (known as Warfare) and wounding system from FFUR (known as First Aid Module) which are all OFP mods (although years too late) into AA2 so I don't see why not now.

[merlin 17]

It would be interesting to see this implemented as a module that mission editors could group with markers and squads. At least for me the implementation of the module system in ArmA II made the editor a lot more user friendly and functional.

Furthermore, it would be interesting if scripts could be "Module'd" for rapid integration into missions without wearing down the printing on your alt and tab keys.

for example, if i often had an equipment script in my missions i could select the files associated with the script and compile them into some sort of module, once the module was added in the mission the associated files would be placed in the mission.

[rangerpl 13]

Just make it a module that you can link to the units. Problem solved.

[katipo66 94]

Nvm, 5....

[neokika 62]

You do realize that whole AI is built around scripts?

Yes, I am aware. But AI is controlled by the engine, when you add scripted solutions (not engine wise) you will add multiple threads, and to make stuff like you mention, can you imagine the nr of threads per group? You can take a look at BIS_fnc_taskPatrol, it adds 3 waypoints and no extra thread, why? Well, Im pretty sure its because of performance issues, nothing else.

Want I would like to see is this stuff hard coded into the engine so we don't need "scripted solutions".

Like, instead of scripting the AI ourselves to use buildings etc, we could just deactivate features like disableAi "Building".

Nothing stopped BIS from copying Chain of Command (known as High Command), Capture The Island (known as Warfare) and wounding system from FFUR (known as First Aid Module) which are all OFP mods (although years too late) into AA2 so I don't see why not now.

:confused:

Can you prove that? Copy&Paste? I find that difficult, if not impossible?

_neo_

Edited July 15, 2011 by neokika

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Which is not true. You can easily hide in a grass and smoke during engagement. Especially smoke. Smoke was my life saviour countless times. Heck I was healing wounded after dropping smoke in an open field and AI couldn't hit me.

I just tried and they still frag me like crazy. A marker drawing a line from their position to where they think I am also proves to me that they know a lot more than they should. Using a lot more smoke did seem to help though, actually, which wasn't the case before.

But your test seems flawed to me. If you're a medic your rating may be so low they prefer other targets. That's how I play at least when medicing or leading - let the others do the majority of shooting, it keeps me alive.

Because the moment I run behind the bush is the moment AI stops trying to kill me.

Ouch, doesn't sound good. They should still shoot but not at their target box, instead shoot in the general vicinity of the target box. Player should still feel a bit suppressed.

Nothing stops BIS from using the similar code to what's there in UPSMON already. It took ages right - but it doesn't take ages to copy something that is already created and should've been there in the first place.

It might when A3 changes how things are done.