Some points from a pilot.

[Chris CDN 10]

Hi folks,

First time on the forum. I've got a history of playing BI games since OFP but this is the first time I've bothered to jump on the forum.

I did a quick look through most of the threads here and didn't see any input from any other real life helo pilots so I thought I'd dive in with a few quick observations.

First, let's start with some of the great things I noticed. I love how you get a noticable vibration when going through transational lift (TL). When you go through TL in real life it's not as pronounced, but since it's kind of hard to replicate 'feel' in a game, it's done really well here. Furthermore, it's amazing to watch how much extra power you need to introduce when you come back down through TL. In real life you'd be amazed at just how much power it actually takes to hold the aircraft in the air. Really well done BI. You guys have pretty much nailed it. Also, the aircraft actually feels like a helicopter. I don't have any time in the Hughes 500, but I've flown the R22, Bell 206, EC145 and Bell 412, so I have a reasonable idea how it should handle. From what I can tell, it's done really well. It actually feels like I'm flying around in a 206 again!

A few things that could be improved. (I know it's not a 'sim' like DCS or FSX)

Retreating blade stall and vortex ring state should probably be modeled. I gave it a few feeble attempts at trying to mash my machine up but couldn't get the effects to kick in. I'm sure this stuff is coming though and just isn't implemented yet. (?) Also, the pedal inputs feel a bit off, but it's probably my controller settings, I'll take another look at them before I actually consider this a (admittedly really minor) gripe.

Does anyone know if there are plans to implement weight changes in the aircraft? Even the Bell 412 (MGW around 12,900lbs) can get overloaded pretty easily. You'll need a LOT of extra power margin to come through TL at low airspeeds, etc.

I'll throw my hat in the ring for BI to contact me if there's any interest in picking up another Beta tester. I know you probably get a lot of soliciation for this type of thing, but I'd love to help if I can.

For those that are wondering, I'm using the TM Warthog HOTAS, Saitek rudder pedals and TrackIR on an Intel i7 950 @ 3.8Ghz, GTX 470, 6 GB RAM and Win7 4-bit.

Bottom Line: Keep up the great work. I'll be picking up my copy on day one for sure.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Chris CDN
Spelling is hard.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

I agree on the ETL vibrations but I think you should re-check the lift changes when passing through ETL. I can't notice any lift change and I actually think it hasn't been implemented into the flight model yet. I have to increase collective to the stops to simulate that boost feeling when you pass ETL.

I also agree on the pedals, especially how much left pedal I still need at 100+ knots.

One other thing, try dumping the collective and notice the slow descent rate. I've only flown 500's a couple times but it should descend noticeably faster, though, it might feel about right for something uber high inertia like the 206. Some people are claiming the flight model feels too heavy, I don't really agree and I think they are basing that claim on the fact that need a lot of pitch to get airborne.

Edited July 3, 2011 by LeftSkidLow

[Chris CDN 10]

I agree on the ETL vibrations but I think you should re-check the lift changes when passing through ETL. I can't notice any lift change and I actually think it hasn't been implemented into the flight model yet. I have to increase collective to the stops to simulate that boost feeling when you pass ETL.

I didn't notice it so much going through from slow to fast, more on the other end, especially when coming in to land on the peak at the end of the sample scenario. Maybe I imagined it, I'll have to go back and check.

Great username! Translating tendancy anyone?

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Tip from DNA (dev): Reduce weight artificially with:

this setCustomWeightRTD -250

in the choppers init field. they say the chopper is configured a bit on the heavy side.

[nightsta1ker 10]

I'm skeptical about how hard you searched for feedback from other real pilots on the forum as there are a handful of us who have been pretty active throughout the forums from the start of the project and our posts can be found throughout. Particularly me; I will be the first to admit that I am very (maybe too) outspoken with my suggestions and constructive criticism.

I completely agree with you that the pedal effectiveness is off. It's too weak. With full pedal deflection I am getting a very slow yaw rate.

To add to your list of things that can be improved, I would like to add that the amount of left pedal required does not seem to diminish with forward airspeed as it should (the vertical stabilizer becoming effective with increased relative wind). No "flap-back" from transverse flow effect (would be simulated by giving the helicopter a nose up and slight right roll tendency as the aircraft begins to pass through effective translational lift; The pilot needs to "push through" it in order to get the rotor system into "clean" air). Autorotations do not seem possible. Pilot's stick movement animation (in game) is greatly exaggerated. Torquemeter is highly inaccurate (erring on the low side).

All of these are small gripes. If they were not included in the final version, no one but us hardcore pilot types would ever even notice. But if they were included they would make the game that much more awesome :cool:

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forums Chris :D

Edited July 3, 2011 by nightsta1ker

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Tip from DNA (dev): Reduce weight artificially with:

this setCustomWeightRTD -250

in the choppers init field. they say the chopper is configured a bit on the heavy side.

I tried this Carl and it was way overkill. I was airborne with something like 20% collective on that green meter. What was weird is I tried a lot of different values including "this setCustomWeightRTD -20" and it didn't change that much.

[Chris CDN 10]

I'm skeptical about how hard you searched for feedback from other real pilots on the forum as there are a handful of us who have been pretty active throughout the forums from the start of the project and our posts can be found throughout.

I'll admit, I didn't make it past the first five pages of this thread here as there wasn't anything of real use. If anything, it's evidence of why I generally avoid forums. I took a look at some of your posts though and there a lot of good points.

One other thing, try dumping the collective and notice the slow descent rate. I've only flown 500's a couple times but it should descend noticeably faster, though, it might feel about right for something uber high inertia like the 206. Some people are claiming the flight model feels too heavy, I don't really agree and I think they are basing that claim on the fact that need a lot of pitch to get airborne.

For sure, when you dump the collective the response should be a lot more pronounced. It's a pretty easy fix though, I'm sure it'll get ironed out. The aircraft definitely feel too light either way.

I re-checked the ETL issue. I still don't notice anything speeding up through ETL, but try keeping a power setting that's a bit on the low side and you'll start to drop pretty quickly on the back end. It didn't work every time, so it could always be user error.

-----

Good to see some other rotor-heads kicking around on the forums. I'm sure there's a lot of good feedback coming from you guys. If some of the basic physics like ETL, ground effect, VRS, settling with power and they balance the weight issue I'll be really happy. Either way, it's a no brainer day one purchase for me.

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. :banghead:

[jibemorel 10]

This post is from a real pilote : http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=121292

[instagoat 133]

...Retreating blade stall and vortex ring state should probably be modeled. I gave it a few feeble attempts at trying to mash my machine up but couldn't get the effects to kick in. I'm sure this stuff is coming though and just isn't implemented yet. (?)...

This was mentioned in the FAQ, which was made in response to my thread. http://www.bistudio.com/index.php/english/company/developers-blog/225-take-on-community-faqs

They say that both retreating blade stall and vortex ring state are going to be modelled. I´ve not tried provoking them yet, because I spent most of my time configging and trying to get the thing to lift off without spreading parts over the landscape. But if you say you don´t get them, I´d think the devs haven´t implemented that part of the FM into the helo yet.

Nice post, though, it really surprises me to hear that helicopters irl also behave as sluggishly as I perceive them here.

Maybe I´m just spoiled by the snap-to controls of the default A2 helos.

Cheerio

[jumpinghubert 48]

@Chris CDN

thanks for the detailed input. But i am a little bit irritated about the lack of feedback related to the deadzone of the joystick ingame. Its one of the biggest barriers to preorder this game. I hope i am not the only one in this forum who wants to play with deactivated deadzone.

Edited July 12, 2011 by JumpingHubert

[liquidpinky 11]

I tried this Carl and it was way overkill. I was airborne with something like 20% collective on that green meter. What was weird is I tried a lot of different values including "this setCustomWeightRTD -20" and it didn't change that much.

The latest version has the weight altered already and this no longer applies.

[sbsmac 0]

@Chris CDN

thanks for the detailed input. But i am a little bit irritated about the lack of feedback related to the deadzone of the joystick ingame. Its one of the biggest barriers to preorder this game. I hope i am not the only one in this forum who wants to play with deactivated deadzone.

Yes, I'm finding it a frustration as well. I can fly well enough at speed and can generally land ok but the huge deadzone in the middle of my X52 means that there's no chance of flying 'low and slow' with any accuracy. Just to confirm that it was a game problem I checked the Saitek control center which very clearly shows that the drivers are reading even small movements of the joystick whereas the game seems to filter out anything less than an inch in any direction.

[jumpinghubert 48]

my concern is that not enough people take focus on this deadzone. so the developers ignore it. Remember the analog throttle issue in arma2....not been fix till now.

P.S. sorry to repeat this stuff again and again :p

[EDcase 87]

Yes, I'm finding it a frustration as well. I can fly well enough at speed and can generally land ok but the huge deadzone in the middle of my X52 means that there's no chance of flying 'low and slow' with any accuracy. Just to confirm that it was a game problem I checked the Saitek control center which very clearly shows that the drivers are reading even small movements of the joystick whereas the game seems to filter out anything less than an inch in any direction.

Have you set sensitivity to 50% in Options/Controls/Controller/Saitek... then 'Customize'

Edited July 12, 2011 by EDcase

[jumpinghubert 48]

Have you set sensitivity to 50% in Options/Controls/Controller/Saitek... then 'Customize'

sorry but there is no way to set deadzone to zero. Give your own tip a try...you will see.

[sbsmac 0]

Have you set sensitivity to 50% in Options/Controls/Controller/Saitek... then 'Customize'

Sensitivity on all axes is 100% and there's still a deadzone. TBF, RiE did post recently that the devs were aware of this.

[Sundowner 11]

Where it's the most noticeable is the collective. Get into the helicopter, and look at the collective, move it slowly up and down with controller axis, it should be smoooooooth. It isn't, when it approaches the 50% mark, it jumps into it and sit for a while there until it jumps out to continue it's movement.

It doesn't matter what sensitivity is set, it always work like that.

[jumpinghubert 48]

@sundowner

yes. the smallest deadzone respective smoothest curve you will have at roughly 75% sensitivity. Similar behavior on x-y axis.

[seth0351 11]

Another thing that would be nice is using the throttle position as indication of how much power. The way it works for me now is above midpoint = increasing power, below = decreasing power. FSX does this nicely with the helis

[b00ce 160]

Autorotations do not seem possible. Pilot's stick movement animation (in game) is greatly exaggerated. Torquemeter is highly inaccurate (erring on the low side).

You have to turn the engines off manually. The Debug engine off in the scroll menu stops the blades completely, as you may have noticed. ;)

I have to agree, the dissymmetry of lift is a bit over pronounced; I've only flown in DCS (Not that it really matters here.:rolleyes:) and X-plane 9 (I don't count FSX), so I couldn't really know for sure how it would be in real life.

Also, there are difficulty settings that add some features, like stress damage and wind effecting flight dynamics.

[Saint7 10]

Hi folks,

I did a quick look through most of the threads here and didn't see any input from any other real life helo pilots so I thought I'd dive in with a few quick observations.

First, let's start with some of the great things I noticed. I love how you get a noticable vibration when going through transational lift (TL). When you go through TL in real life it's not as pronounced, but since it's kind of hard to replicate 'feel' in a game, it's done really well here. Furthermore, it's amazing to watch how much extra power you need to introduce when you come back down through TL. In real life you'd be amazed at just how much power it actually takes to hold the aircraft in the air. Really well done BI. You guys have pretty much nailed it. Also, the aircraft actually feels like a helicopter. I don't have any time in the Hughes 500, but I've flown the R22, Bell 206, EC145 and Bell 412, so I have a reasonable idea how it should handle. From what I can tell, it's done really well. It actually feels like I'm flying around in a 206 again!

A few things that could be improved. (I know it's not a 'sim' like DCS or FSX)

Retreating blade stall and vortex ring state should probably be modeled. I gave it a few feeble attempts at trying to mash my machine up but couldn't get the effects to kick in. I'm sure this stuff is coming though and just isn't implemented yet. (?) Also, the pedal inputs feel a bit off, but it's probably my controller settings, I'll take another look at them before I actually consider this a (admittedly really minor) gripe.

Does anyone know if there are plans to implement weight changes in the aircraft? Even the Bell 412 (MGW around 12,900lbs) can get overloaded pretty easily. You'll need a LOT of extra power margin to come through TL at low airspeeds, etc.

I'll throw my hat in the ring for BI to contact me if there's any interest in picking up another Beta tester. I know you probably get a lot of soliciation for this type of thing, but I'd love to help if I can.

I'm also a real life helo pilot and have to agree with Chris however there is one thing that I feel has been overlooked and that's wind.

In real life wind changes everything and I think for the gamer who wants a real life experience, getting into an LZ with wind trying to cock the aircraft can be "very interesting" especially if causes LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness, i.e. tail rotor vortex) in the hover etc.

But yes retreating blade stall and vortex are definitely things in my mind that would be good to model.

The pedals definitely also need to be looked at from an authority perspective; there just simply is not enough tail rotor authority there.

In real life even when flying at a relatively decent airspeed if I hoof in pedal one WILL know it. In game this is not so. I find that the tail rotor effectiveness is only really there when at a very low airspeed.

Also I think that it would also be better to have airspeed in knots and height in feet as an option. Metres and miles per hour are not quite correct.

And lastly the "deadzone" issue, but I don't need to repeat what's already been covered.

Other than that BIS; you guys have a done a fantastic job so far!

Edited July 18, 2011 by Saint7

[nightsta1ker 10]

I'm also a real life helo pilot and have to agree with Chris however there is one thing that I feel has been overlooked and that's wind.

In real life wind changes everything and I think for the gamer who wants a real life experience, getting into an LZ with wind trying to cock the aircraft can be "very interesting" especially if causes LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness, i.e. tail rotor vortex) in the hover etc.

But yes retreating blade stall and vortex are definitely things in my mind that would be good to model.

The pedals definitely also need to be looked at from an authority perspective; there just simply is not enough tail rotor authority there.

In real life even when flying at a relatively decent airspeed if I hoof in pedal one WILL know it. In game this is not so. I find that the tail rotor effectiveness is only really there when at a very low airspeed.

Also I think that it would also be better to have airspeed in knots and height in feet as an option. Metres and miles per hour are not quite correct.

And lastly the "deadzone" issue, but I don't need to repeat what's already been covered.

Other than that BIS; you guys have a done a fantastic job so far!

+ 1 on this. Thanks Saint.

[DnA 5029]

And lastly the "deadzone" issue, but I don't need to repeat what's already been covered.

We've found a default 7% deadzone on all joystick axes in the engine, which was introduced to solve oscillations around the joystick center (it is pretty much never truly 0). This week we've added control over these deadzone for all axes, including collective. We hope to roll it out in the next CP.

I'm also a real life helo pilot and have to agree with Chris however there is one thing that I feel has been overlooked and that's wind.

In real life wind changes everything and I think for the gamer who wants a real life experience, getting into an LZ with wind trying to cock the aircraft can be "very interesting" especially if causes LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness, i.e. tail rotor vortex) in the hover etc.

Wind is already feeding into the flight model, but it may well be some tuning is necessary. The right-most analogue guage (compass) shows the wind direction in the center and we're planning to extend it to indicate strength. Scripters can see if they can notice the difference by playing with the wind settings: setWind. There also is a unlabelled rogue slider in the editor's Intel window to control wind and wind forecast.

[sbsmac 0]

We've found a default 7% deadzone on all joystick axes in the engine, which was introduced to solve oscillations around the joystick center (it is pretty much never truly 0). This week we've added control over these deadzone for all axes, including collective. We hope to roll it out in the next CP.

Great news - really looking forward to the next update. FWIW, I'm enjoying ToH immensely. :)

[monsterZERO 10]

This week we've added control over these deadzone for all axes, including collective. We hope to roll it out in the next CP.

SWEET! This is EXACTLY what I've been waiting to hear. You guys at BI are awesome!