Real reasons for war in Lybia

[bospor 0]

Found this very interesting article today guys:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27936.htm

[ProfTournesol 956]

Found this very interesting article today guys:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27936.htm

This article is so orientated that it's ridiculous. Most of the arguments are simply meh.

Edited June 5, 2011 by ProfTournesol

[-martin- 10]

Two words: Oil, Control

[Beagle 684]

Might be about fresh water as well!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4814988.stm

[celery 8]

West = Great Satan

[bospor 0]

I think this is another side of the coin. In any conflict there is always two sides. At least I have never heard this side of the story in any western media. There is some truth here I think. Large financial organizations are controlling western politics, it's no secret. This could be their way of shutting down Africans from any independent banking system that uses their own currency. Gaddafi is an easy target, he is a real dictator, no questions there, but I think there is way more to the story that we hear on the news.

[demonized 20]

i wont try to go to much in detail into whatever conspiracys or theorys about why the war.

but the fact is that NATO is now acting as a agressor not a peace mediator or a defender.

I do not condone the current NATO warfare in Libya, i think it is wrong, with wrong motives, masked as democracy, powered by a massive propaganda effort.

Ghadaffi was in progress of establishing a gold dinar system to replace the US dollar for oil sales and economy in Libya and surronding countrys, he was also in the start face of beginning serious trade with China, and was about to kick out foreign oil companys from Libya, this including most western companies.

Libya is/i mean ofc WAS the only country in that region with almost western quality public welfare services, donations to new companys, education, living.

This in itself is a HUGE feat acomplished in such a troubled area.

Now they have effectively bombed it to the stoneage, so it will be dependent on other countrys to get back on its feet, meaning unable to become a sovereign country and will rely on US dollar once again for the unforseen future.

The rebels are a minority in Libya(most of the Libyan people did not support the rebels, but are now to afraid to not do so), they have beheaded foreigners, both white and black, rapes and using civilians as shields in the citys.

Though reports only focus on Libyan forces doing these brutalitys, and overwelmed by the bomb of NATO, anyone who flees have to give in to the propaganda and spread it themselves to not be seen as a enemy, thus propaganda is making itself true on its own, since everyone not on the other side still fighting is saying the same propaganda.

The rebels took up arms first and attacked a army outpost, then procedeed to attack/siege all the citys in turn.

Al-Quaida is publicly supporting and being in leadership and amongst the leadership of the rebels, this is also confirmed by western sources.

Ghadaffi was also a sworn enemy of Al-Quaida(for a long time) and contributed heavily in the battle against them, in strong cooperation with US.

Ghadaffi also requested to get a western official comitee to oversee a new election so that Al-Quaida or any other extremist islamist groups did not get power in Libya, then he would cease fire and resign under parlay.

I dont mean to say that Ghadaffi is not a tough SOB, but that SOB has lead Libya to near western prosperity in a region that is suffocating in ilitteracy, poverty, extreme religions, violence and wars.

I mean, this is a new WMD scam, under the cover of convenient hype..... economy of the US is relying on strenghtening the dollar, Ghadaffis plan to kick out western companys and insert the gold dinar instead of the US dollar would have severly threatend any effort of the US stabilizing the economy.

I mean for Gods sake, when someone publicly offers to surrender as long as a official comitee of the attackers side(NATO) will supervice a new election so that NO extremist islamic group or Al-Quaida/terrorists got to power in Libya, but a fair publicly elected leadership was properly elected and the socalled "defenders"/NATO refuses this and carrys on the masacre of a countrys infrastructure and defence forces.

Where is the logic, we dont want a ceasefire and end of war with controlled elections, we want to bomb you all to smithereens and install al-quaida instead of Ghadaffi.

..................................................

seems it got long winded after all.

Conclusion, the whole thing is just sad, because the damage is already done and the victors paint the truth after in whatever colors they choose.

Edit: for anything, cudos to OP to just raise the question no matter what side he is on.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Demonized

[maturin 12]

Might be about fresh water as well!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4814988.stm

Yep, the bottled water companies that secretly control NATO and the entire foreign policy and media of the West have orchestrated this popular uprising so they will be able to continue water sales to Libya, despite the heavy European participation in the pipeline project. And this is all adequately argued by the simple presence of this link.

I've all but given up posting in these threads because critical thinking of any kind is completely foreign to the intellectual featherweight zones that quickly appear.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Two words: Oil, Control

There are a few more. ;) Union for the Mediterranean:

ozApOg25660

http://eeas.europa.eu/euromed/index_en.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Mediterranean

Artificial Sahara desert river irrigation project:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0823/Libya-s-Qaddafi-taps-fossil-water-to-irrigate-desert-farms

Libya... it's complicated. ;)

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

I think this is another side of the coin. In any conflict there is always two sides.

A coin has three sides.

Edit: for anything, cudos to OP to just raise the question no matter what side he is on.

There is only one side - civilisation. One could bring religion into this topic and destroy his opponents, or are there this many supporters of child prostitution out there?

despite the heavy European participation in the pipeline project. And this is all adequately argued by the simple presence of this link.

I've all but given up posting in these threads because critical thinking of any kind is completely foreign to the intellectual featherweight zones that quickly appear.

These both paragraphs cancel out each other, critical thinking would be to point out that in 20 years, there will be no West in the Western Europe due to the demographics of Arab & Muslim counties, just south of the continent, and that there is a need to slow the pace of their expansion into our living space.

You haven't heard of water privitisation in Bolivia, other South American countries, of rainwater in India - what, you think this is a profit venture? :D:D:D

Edited June 5, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Beagle 684]

Yep, the bottled water companies that secretly control NATO and the entire foreign policy and media of the West have orchestrated this popular uprising so they will be able to continue water sales to Libya, despite the heavy European participation in the pipeline project. And this is all adequately argued by the simple presence of this link.

I've all but given up posting in these threads because critical thinking of any kind is completely foreign to the intellectual featherweight zones that quickly appear.

Do you know that right now there are hedgefonds and gathering around "waterholes"... fresh water is the oil of the post oil economy.

More wars are fought over water than oil right now already. We live in a world where large parts of europe already have to deal with desertification... The rule over Billions of m³ water would have made ghadaffi very influent in africa...and the project was about to deliver watte exactly this year...the countries that are involved in the project are exactly those that made a abstention from voting in the UN against Lybia...Germany and China.

To get this insight you just have to read the newpapers and remember it a few years later.

Old newspapers and journals show the bigottry of western politicians clear and unobscured....you just have to read them and store them and remember it.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Beagle

[-martin- 10]

NATO was all of a sudden so interested in making peace in Lybia...

There was a revolution in Egypt, Tunisia, there are protests in Syria, Yemen yet NATO only invaded Lybia...

It’s easy to make up a lie about fighting for democracy but it’s hard to hide the real reason behind it... And it’s also easy to justify things to the Western public, I was watching Russia Today one day and they asked some random people in New York about their thoughts on Lybia and I distinctly remember one man saying:

“I don’t know if its right to stand up for the rebels, they might be communistsâ€

makes me sad to see people so brainwashed.

I just wonder when people will wake up to see the truth about NATO. But it makes me sad to actually see countries like Poland wanting even more NATO presence in their countries to protect them from Russia... I mean what’s Russia goanna do to Poland that they need NATO rockets in their country? I’m also ashamed of countries like my own, the Czech Republic even thinking about the possibility of building NATO radars in our country, why does a small country like us need to get involved in stuff like this and what has Russia ever done to us that’s so bad, they re-established communism after ww2? Most people these days are 100% worse off than they were back then and they know it...

They are basically helping NATO secure a position in the world where they will be unstoppable.

Anyway I give up on this stuff, people are like misguided sheep, you can give them whatever you want and they will always stab you in the back when someone else comes. :(

Do you know that right now there are hedgefonds and gathering around "waterholes"... fresh water is the oil of the post oil economy.

More wars are fought over water than oil right now already. We live in a world where large parts of europe already have to deal with desertification... The rule over Billions of m³ water would have made ghadaffi very influent in africa...and the project was about to deliver watte exactly this year...the countries that are involved in the project are exactly those that made a abstention from voting in the UN against Lybia...Germany and China.

To get this insight you just have to read the newpapers and remember it a few years later.

Old newspapers and journals show the bigottry of western politicians clear and unobscured....you just have to read them and store them and remember it.

+1

Edited June 5, 2011 by -Martin-

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I just wonder when people will wake up to see the truth about NATO.

And do what exactly? You'd rather be living in China, the USSR, Saudi Arabia as an average citisen? Do you realise that most of Humanity has lived under tyranny since time immemorial, and that there have been only brief moments of Liberty & Justice: Magna Carta charter in the Britain, Renaissance in Europe, the American Revolution, Europe post WW II.

Makes me wonder whether you're really from the UK. Good thing that people, who are well versed in reality are in power in Europe and elsewhere in the West, so we don't have to worry about the bullshit of the past. Much.

[-martin- 10]

And do what exactly? You'd rather be living in China, the USSR, Saudi Arabia as an average citisen? Do you realise that most of Humanity has lived under tyranny since time immemorial, and that there have been only brief moments of Liberty & Justice: Magna Carta charter in the Britain, Renaissance in Europe, the American Revolution, Europe post WW II.

Makes me wonder whether you're really from the UK. Good thing that people, who are well versed in reality are in power in Europe and elsewhere in the West, so we don't have to worry about the bullshit of the past. Much.

To tell you the trut I'd rather be living in the USSR as an average citizen, in my country i have a 4 bedroom apartment, in the UK I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and I give somebody £30 000 every year worth of rent.

And since when has NATO done anything to help reduce tyranny? You call destroyning countries and cultures,prostuting their resources and people to the West and giving away portions of other countries away to others without knowing anything about the history of the place freedom? Please man, give me a break... It might be nice for you but one day the coin will turn on you and nobody will listen to you.

And no I'm not from the UK, I just live here but that doesn't mean I have to agree to everything that the West does, infact the only reason why I'm here is because the West brought me here

But anyway this is getting too off topic, I think its best if we get back to Lybia.

Kind regards :smile:

Edited June 6, 2011 by -Martin-

[Hans Ludwig 0]

This article is so orientated that it's ridiculous. Most of the arguments are simply meh.

LOL

I think you want to use another word, since that one doesn't go very well at all with the sentence.

Maybe use the word biased instead?

---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------

To tell you the trut I'd rather be living in the USSR as an average citizen

in my country i have a 4 bedroom apartment, in the UK I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and I give somebody £30 000 every year worth of rent.

There is a logical explanation why real estate prices vary from place to place. There are areas of most big cities that people want to live in the most, driving up the prices of housing and real estate in that area. Why would you want to live in a blighted area when you can live in an area that is nicer, safer, better schools or other value judgment based criteria. Then there are higher taxes and property taxes, which also cause the home values to rise exponentially.

Example:

I live in Texas where you can buy 10 acres of land and a 3,000 sq.ft home for around 300K. In NYC 300K can get you a walk-in closet of an apartment/condo around 900 sq. ft.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't care to know the true since you much rather beat your chest and scream to the heavens how evil Capitalism is and how much better Communism was.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[-martin- 10]

How can you make such a bold comment if you never lived in the USSR and have absolutely no clue what so ever about it except from what you were told by others?

Edited June 6, 2011 by -Martin-

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

And since when has NATO done anything to help reduce tyranny? You call destroyning countries and cultures,prostuting their resources and people to the West and giving away portions of other countries away to others without knowing anything about the history of the place freedom?

Don't you remember what happened in 1991? NATO, West - they can not play the game without adhering to the rules of the world, which was carved up in tyranny and misery. If the countries of the West were any more free, they'd fall prey to anyone, who disregards basic concepts of civilisation.

And no I'm not from the UK, I just live here but that doesn't mean I have to agree to everything that the West does

Why do you live there, then? Because I'm from the USSR and have been scarred by tyranny early in my life, having taken a vow to myself to do whatever it takes to wake up at least one sentient being in this world as to the dangers of mindless collectivism.

But anyway this is getting too off topic, I think its best if we get back to Lybia.

Libya, Libya - it can turn into a philosophical question, if one examines the demographics of that region. Human beings are the only species able to sense pain in other living things, even inanimate objects. To be humane is to be able to relieve pain: would you agree on continuing the course of the devaluation of the Human Life by the means of increasing the population numbers, senselessly to the point that a death of one Person does not matter anymore? Such is the situation in the MENA region.

:dancehead:

Edited June 6, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Hans Ludwig 0]

How can you make such a bold comment if you never lived in the USSR and have absolutely no clue what so ever about it except from what you were told by others?

The irony is strong with you.

Look, no matter how much you try and be a cheerleader for Communism, I don't want any part of it. I want freedom to be able to make my own choices, work where I want to work at the wage I want. I want to be able to purchase products and services from those I feel are giving me a good deal. In turn, they are getting my business and we are both happy to engage in a contractual agreement void of government intervention. If I'm wronged or the producer is wronged, then we are able to take each other to court to remedy our grievances.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[-martin- 10]

Why do you live there, then

Because after the collapse of the USSR and Czechoslovakia all the factories in my town were sold to Western companies by the leeches that came in to the communist party after 1968 for a few pennies, those Western companies took the valuable machines out of the factories and left the buildings to rot leaving half of the city without work.

As the years went on people struggled to find work in the few factories that still operated working underpaid and overloaded to keep up with the rising food and energy prices.

So my parents said to themselves that they don't want their son to grow up in a shattered country like that where he will just get used by Western companies and since the American Dollar was very valuable in those years we emigrated to America only to find that it’s even worse, then we emigrated to Canada only to find that we were being taken as some sort of low life there, nobody cared about our education all they cared about is that we are from Eastern Europe and were somehow evil, that we came to kill them or something. So we immigrated to the UK and finally decided we had enough travelling and broken dreams and settled here.

The point I'm trying to make is: In the USSR you had to wait lines for food, in the post USSR you don't have to wait lines but you don't have the money for food, so basically it’s the same either way.

The irony is strong with you.

Look, no matter how much you try and be a cheerleader for Communism, I don't want any part of it.

The irony is that you still didn’t answer my question.

I'm no cheerleader for communism but what I'm saying is that we were better off with it then we are now with your democracy and NATO membership.

I want freedom to be able to make my own choices, work where I want to work at the wage I want.

Try to do that in Eastern Europe now :smile: I wish you all the luck in the world.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I read the first sentence, up-to "sold to Westerners" and decides not to use my time to disassemble this.

You have never thought, why those factories were closed, why were they so inefficient, why 70 years of schizophrenic existence for hundreds of millions of people was forced upon "by the leeches... in... the communist party." With that type of thought you will never have any money to function in this society. As Aldous Huxley said, "There will be a generation or so of malcontents in this period of great transition."

[-martin- 10]

I read the first sentence, up-to "sold to Westerners" and decides not to use my time to disassemble this.

You have never thought, why those factories were closed, why were they so inefficient,

Yeah the factories were very inefficient, funny that the machines that were taken from them weren’t.

I remember Austrians saying that food in Czechoslovakia was contaminated with pesticides that the Communists spray them with and what not, but when the border opened after the revolution a flood of Austrians came over the border and bought up everything, I remember them buying whole boxes of sugar, flower, meat and what not, shops were left empty after them, I guess they must have forgotten about the contamination or something when they saw the low prices? :biggrin:

There is a logical explanation why real estate prices vary from place to place. There are areas of most big cities that people want to live in the most, driving up the prices of housing and real estate in that area. Why would you want to live in a blighted area when you can live in an area that is nicer, safer, better schools or other value judgment based criteria. Then there are higher taxes and property taxes, which also cause the home values to rise exponentially.

Example:

I live in Texas where you can buy 10 acres of land and a 3,000 sq.ft home for around 300K. In NYC 300K can get you a walk-in closet of an apartment/condo around 900 sq. ft.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't care to know the true since you much rather beat your chest and scream to the heavens how evil Capitalism is and how much better Communism was.

You don't understand my point Hans, the point I'm trying to make is that in my country I have a 4 bedroom apartment worth more than a million but I can't use it because of the political and economical circumstances created in my country after the collapse of communism. Instead I have to feed somebody here with most of my money because I can afford to buy a car and basic stuff that I could have had in communism.

How would you feel if I came to the US, ruined your economy and forced you to leave your home in Texas and move to some other country where you will give your wage to someone in exchange for a tiny apartment compared to what you have in Texas?

I don't want to continue bragging on about this because there's nothing that I can do and there is nothing that anyone here did to contribute to this, but I just want people to open their eyes and see the real results of what happened after the collapse of the soviet union because most people have the attitude "Yeah communism was evil so America destroyed it, but Eastern Europe is poor now so f*** them let them do whatever they want now, we don't care anymore".

On topic: This is whats gonna happen to Lybians now as well, a lot of people will be forced to flee elswere as a result of this uprising while a lot of those who stay behind will be forced to start from scratch, but NATO or the UN doesn't seem to care about this in any way, all they want to do is remove Gadaffi and exit the country.

Edited June 6, 2011 by -Martin-

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Yeah the factories were very inefficient, funny that the machines that were taken from them weren’t.

Taken as in stolen or bought?

I remember Austrians saying that food in Czechoslovakia was contaminated with pesticides that the Communists spray them with and what not, but when the border opened after the revolution a flood of Austrians came over the border and bought up everything, I remember them buying whole boxes of sugar, flower, meat and what not, shops were left empty after them, I guess they must have forgotten about the contamination or something when they saw the low prices? :biggrin:

What is wrong with Austrians buying goods or services from your country? What is the matter with anyone of any color, race, religion, ethnicity, engaging in free trade?

[-martin- 10]

Taken as in stolen or bought?

Taken as in bought, for a very unfair price because it was the people of Czechoslovakia that built these factories and after the revolution communist managers of these factories who had no right to own them sold them for an unfair price.

Since everything belonged to the state by what means was one person who was simply an employee responsible for the running of the factory allowed to clam that a factory was solely theirs? It’s like if you employ me in your company as a manager and I claim that I'm the chairman and sell it.

What is wrong with Austrians buying goods or services from your country? What is the matter with anyone of any color, race, religion, ethnicity, engaging in free trade?

Once again you don't understand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with free trade at all and the more a country engages in it the better, the point is the sudden change of opinion.

Before the revolution they laughed at Czechoslovakia that our food is poisoned and turned us in to a laughing stock while deep down they know that this isn't true.

Then after just days the revolution they forgot all about what they were saying just DAYS before and bought all the food they could get their hands on in Czechoslovakia.

It’s quite ironic in my point of view.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

What is wrong with Austrians buying goods or services from your country? What is the matter with anyone of any color, race, religion, ethnicity, engaging in free trade?

He's a lost cause, while he may be genuinely interested in the truth, he has had bad influence - in the form of parents, who have been a total failure. I would know, mine were as well. :D

I'm willing to explain, if a person is willing to listen. The gravity of the situation compels that people must listen to reason in times like these.

Taken as in bought, for a very unfair price because it was the people of Czechoslovakia that built these factories and after the revolution communist managers of these factories who had no right to own them sold them for an unfair price.

It's 5 AM here and I'm ROFLING. ;) Such beautiful irony.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[-martin- 10]

He's a lost cause, while he may be genuinely interested in the truth, he has had bad influence - in the form of parents, who have been a total failure. I would know, mine were as well. :D

Don't ever call my parents a failure man, my parents managed to get out of a shattered country which was locked up for almost half a century and with no help from anyone, with no money, travel the world without knowing any language and worked their asses off all their lives and managed to give me a good education and life, they managed to get a house and achieved more than most people who are born here, know the language and have all the doors open to them :mad:

Watch your tongue man and watch it very carefully :mad:

Taken as in bought, for a very unfair price because it was the people of Czechoslovakia that built these factories and after the revolution communist managers of these factories who had no right to own them sold them for an unfair price.

1) Who built the factories if it wasn't the people of Czechoslovakia? It sure wasnt the people who sold them... It was ordinary people who were forced to build them by communists.

2) What right did a person who managed a factory that was built even before he was born have to sell it?

Corruption corruption corruption thats the simple answer, they had contacts which let them get in to the position of selling the factories.

Edited June 6, 2011 by -Martin-

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Don't ever call my parents a failure man, my parents managed to get out of a shattered country which was locked up for almost half a century and with no help from anyone, with no money, travel the world without knowing any language and worked their asses off all their lives and managed to give me a good education and life, they managed to get a house and achieved more than most people who are born here, know the language and have all the doors open to them :mad:

Watch your tongue man and watch it very carefully :mad:

I'll play along: why was it "a shattered country which was locked up for almost half a century and with no help from anyone, with no money, travel the world without knowing any language" a success in your opinion, that you want back?

I'm not politically correct, I am unfortunate enough to live in the real world, where you and everyone else in the former Soviet Union were peasants, uneducated, landless, peasants back in the 1900s, and by the dissolution of the USSR in 1990, still were landless, uneducated peasants.

Do you want this fate for the rest of the world?

:rolleyes:

Replace peasants with Bedouins and you have Libya & company.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin