Real reasons for war in Lybia

[mrcash2009 0]

Point taken but I dont see sides any-more, just see a "bunch" going at another bunch with better kit ... they all interlink. It wasnt a "yank" bash or anything, just a good link to an example ref the DVD about points of view ref sorting the world out, dont worry all countries are "at it" just flip the country and keep the attitude toward policing the world, slap NATO on it and fun times.

Crusades with different clothes on and alternate badges ;)

Edited June 15, 2011 by mrcash2009

[Innomadic 10]

Worry more about Syria & Pakistan ... those are the tipping points into something much far reaching more than anything else, although I see personally NATO as being the shit stirrers at the moment opening a can of worms, but, that's my view only.

NATO didn't ask to become involved, nor do i remember the UN asking to become involved, though i do remember the rebels asking the UN and NATO to become involved after being fired upon by tanks, aircraft, choppers, Congo mercs....

NATO is not a peacekeeping organisation by any means, its original mission statement was based on collective defence against any Warsaw Pact aggression. However due to the amount of countries that are now members and involved in Libya, its easier to let NATO take over the operation in Libya so the combination of forces can act in unison with ease.

Just remember, NATO consists of Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Are you really going to tell me that all these countries are on a crusade in Africa and the ME? What exactly do they have to gain from it?

And before you say Oil the US imports most of its Oil from Canada, Mexico and Saudi Arabia, and imports have been declining over the last 5 years. Re-establishing colonial rule is not economically viable for anyone, the US is struggling in Afghanistan and so too in Iraq before the withdrawal.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm

[spooky lynx 73]

If you state that we are spoon-fed false information by western medias about the situation in wars we are involved it, please, let us return you the favor.

Russia going to war has certainly no better reason than US (or any1 going war, mainly) doing so

If you want to play the "you are lied to" game, play it to its full extent. You are lied to, too.

It was said that Russia intervented Georgia/Moldova/Chechnya etc. But I doubt that any of you know much about the amount of russians who had been murdered there or had to become refugee.

Well how would you stop the Civil War in Lybia?

- If NATO withdraw their support the side with the strongest force will go on with any crime against their opponents.

- Dividing the country into "old" and "new" isn't a option either.

- Destroying the command and communication structure aswell as logistics isn't done that easily + fast like in movies or games.

- Isolating powerfull leaders takes time...

The best way to stop the civil war is not to take part in it and not to help any side. Anything other will turn the things worse and only make war longer and more devastating.

NATO is not a peacekeeping organisation by any means, its original mission statement was based on collective defence against any Warsaw Pact aggression.

LOLWUT? NATO was founded 6 years earlier than Warsaw pact:D

[Innomadic 10]

LOLWUT? NATO was founded 6 years earlier than Warsaw pact:D

So my history is patchy on this subject, boo hoo, the point is that it was still formed to defend against Eastern incursions into Western Europe.

[whisper 0]

It was said that Russia intervented Georgia/Moldova/Chechnya etc. But I doubt that any of you know much about the amount of russians who had been murdered there or had to become refugee.

The same amount who died in WTC?

A bit more than the losses in Algeria conflict few decades ago?

Does that make Iraq any more valid? Afghanistan? I don't think so

Does that validate what we french did in Algeria? F*** hell, certainly not!

There are plenty of justifications thrown at all of us for what our govts decide to do, all grossly overstated, simplified by manipulated press organs to make the justification valid.

You agree it's the case for western govts and press?

Just apply the same logic to your country. There's no reason it's any different.

If I'm going to be picky, I've yet to hear about western journalist murdered because he/she wasn't following the official line....

Though, it's probably because I've not been paying enough attention to smtg that is now carefully hidden, tbh

[mrcash2009 0]

Are you really going to tell me that all these countries are on a crusade in Africa and the ME? What exactly do they have to gain from it?

What you see now.

[spooky lynx 73]

The same amount who died in WTC?

A bit more than the losses in Algeria conflict few decades ago?

Does that make Iraq any more valid? Afghanistan? I don't think so

Does that validate what we french did in Algeria? F*** hell, certainly not!

There are plenty of justifications thrown at all of us for what our govts decide to do, all grossly overstated, simplified by manipulated press organs to make the justification valid.

You agree it's the case for western govts and press?

Just apply the same logic to your country. There's no reason it's any different.

If I'm going to be picky, I've yet to hear about western journalist murdered because he/she wasn't following the official line....

Though, it's probably because I've not been paying enough attention to smtg that is now carefully hidden, tbh

How many people died in WTC? If I'm not mistaken, about 2800. In 1991-1999 there were murdered about 21000 russians in Chechnya (BTW, it was a region but not a country), about 46000 were enslaved. Do you feel the difference?

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Obama Administration Argues War Powers Limits Don’t Apply to Libya Mission

President Barack Obama’s explanation of why he can continue the U.S. mission in Libya without lawmakers’ approval didn’t immediately satisfy critics in Congress, and legal scholars were divided over how the law should be interpreted.

SOURCE:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-15/u-s-role-in-libya-is-mainly-one-of-support-administration-tells-congress.html

[Innomadic 10]

What you see now.

All i see is money being sent into a war machine, and nothing coming out. What exactly am i meant to be seeing?

[-martin- 10]

What exactly am i meant to be seeing?

That NATO are the good peace keeping angels of the world and that what they do is purely because of human compassion and the need to spread democracy, improve human rights, wages, freedom and one day to establish contact with aliens, build a giant ship called the Enterprise and spread democracy to every stone flying in the universe while fighting heroic wars with laser guns against giant man eating squid from Mars armed with Kalashnikovs and 100 tentacles.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is a helper of the axis of evil

[Innomadic 10]

That NATO are the good peace keeping angels of the world and that what they do is purely because of human compassion and the need to spread democracy, improve human rights, wages, freedom and one day to establish contact with aliens, build a giant ship called the Enterprise and spread democracy to every stone flying in the universe while fighting heroic wars with laser guns against giant man eating squid from Mars armed with Kalashnikovs and 100 tentacles.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is a helper of the axis of evil

I think the organisation you're looking for is the UNSC.

[whisper 0]

How many people died in WTC? If I'm not mistaken, about 2800. In 1991-1999 there were murdered about 21000 russians in Chechnya (BTW, it was a region but not a country), about 46000 were enslaved. Do you feel the difference?

OK, blindly believe your press, fine by me (and with that, I'm pretty sure you'll decide that I consider Chechnya to never have done any harm to any russian.... and you'll be wrong). Russia is the holy grail of countries and does everything fine, unlike these greedy westerners who do it all wrong ...

I guess it's OK for you if I blindly believe my own press, then ... about Libyan govt and army killing dozens of innocents and NATO being on a peacekeeping mission. About thousands of refugees fleeing Libya in fear of the Army threat.

We absolutely never would go to war because of personal interest of our prez, we only move to save innocent people. We don't care about Libyan Oil.

Btw, isn't there oil in Chechnya? ...

[Innomadic 10]

We don't care about Libyan Oil.

No, you don't actually (assuming you're American), Canada is your main supplier followed by Mexico and Saudi Arabia. Libya doesn't even come close to Iraq.

[whisper 0]

I'm french, I care ;) (wait, nonononono, I don't care at all about libyan oil!)

[mrcash2009 0]

All i see is money being sent into a war machine, and nothing coming out. What exactly am i meant to be seeing?

What you already see :)

[Innomadic 10]

I'm french, I care ;) (wait, nonononono, I don't care at all about libyan oil!)

Considering that Libyan oil accounts for 15% of the total, and the rest is predominantly supplied by Russia, i think you're overstating the need.

You also seem to forget the part where the Protestors/rebels wanted your help.

What you already see :)

Doesn't answer the question.

[whisper 0]

Considering that Libyan oil accounts for 15% of the total, and the rest is predominantly supplied by Russia, i think you're overstating the need.

You also seem to forget the part where the Protestors/rebels wanted your help.

I already explained my point of view about our intervention in Libya in the other Libya thread, to me the main reason isn't oil (it's not peacekeeping either,ofc)

I'm just using oil as the easy example of hidden motives

[spooky lynx 73]

OK, blindly believe your press, fine by me (and with that, I'm pretty sure you'll decide that I consider Chechnya to never have done any harm to any russian.... and you'll be wrong). Russia is the holy grail of countries and does everything fine, unlike these greedy westerners who do it all wrong ...

We would better support Afghan king and not establish relations with those guys who overthrew him. That was our huge mistake. Another mistake - that UN resolution that helped to start this war. We should block it.

I guess it's OK for you if I blindly believe my own press, then ... about Libyan govt and army killing dozens of innocents and NATO being on a peacekeeping mission. About thousands of refugees fleeing Libya in fear of the Army threat.

Dozens of innocents? But are they really innocents? Some sources say that not all of them are libyans...

[mrcash2009 0]

Doesn't answer the question.

It does, it was in your own question:

All i see is money being sent into a war machine, and nothing coming out.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Some sources say that not all of them are libyans...

A good reason to kill them.

[spooky lynx 73]

A good reason to kill them.

And you're quite right, indeed. How does any government deal with foreigners who start armed rebellion at their country? How does Israel behave with arabic guerillas that 'help' palestinians? What happens with other arabic mujaheeden who come to Iraq?

[whisper 0]

We would better support Afghan king and not establish relations with those guys who overthrew him. That was our huge mistake. Another mistake - that UN resolution that helped to start this war. We should block it.

Dozens of innocents? But are they really innocents? Some sources say that not all of them are libyans...

Arg! It looks like you missed my point.

You really think I believe what my govt/press is trying to sell me?

[spooky lynx 73]

Arg! It looks like you missed my point.

You really think I believe what my govt/press is trying to sell me?

Maybe missed:o

So please explain again.

[whisper 0]

Maybe missed:o

So please explain again.

In fact I agree with you, my govt, my country press are presenting things to me the way they see it fit their agenda.

There is very probably no innocent killing in the scale presented to us, probably isolated incidents shown as if they were a general truth, radio calls from unknown people stating horrible things, without any evidence behind, etc... all this to justify our intervention.

what I'm saying is that your govt, and your press, is doing the same (often in the opposite way, but the same anyway).

I don't know exactly how the situation is shown to you, but if you tell me to not believe my press, I'll say the same to you.

For example in chechnya, while not denying the acts of terrors done there since long time (if I'm not mistaken, this area is in a regular state of crisis with central russia for centuries, in fact since they are considered russian country... or maybe my source ain't true, I can't really know ;) ), the fact that the area is full of gas & oil is a major factor in the intervention by russian army. They used the terror acts at their advantage to maintain a firm grip on chechnya resources. If the area was empty, you can be sure Putin would let the people live their live there without interfering.

Same for Georgia and their pipeline

[wipman 1]

Hi, for me the real reason for the current war in lybia are:

- Give that land to filo-faszist elements.

- Create a very big space for faszist radical islamists.

- Stablish a radical (faszist) islamist economic zone sharing some "free market values".

- Legitimate the western defence budget with all the previous.

- Keep the power, money and privileges on the hands of the powerfull ones.

That's sumarizing, the reasons that i see behind the current war in lybia, the protests in egyp, tunisia, yemen and siria. Create in the long term a kind of EU made out of filo-faszist islamic radical countrys with a "free market" based on their control and our depency of the oil to favour the people with power, their companys and their asociateds. Let's C ya