Steamworks, add it in or not?

[crazyjake56 10]

What your average Total War player will tolerate, just so that he can play TW and not have to make a principled stand against Steam's illegal practices is no justification for what Steam do. What Steam are doing is clearly wrong, whether you look at it in terms of the consumer laws of most Western countries or simply in terms of common sense principle.

It has nothing to do with "fearing the unknown". In fact, it's having a clear understanding of exactly what Steam are doing which makes some of us dislike their business practices so much. Quite the opposite to fearing the unknown, my friend - the exact opposite in fact.

I agree that digital download, with a decent, fair and legal EULA, *IS* the future. And I personally welcome that. The problem is, Steam's EULA is not decent, fair and will more than likely be proven illegal in the not too distant future.

But all that doesn't concern you, eh? You're happy, as long as you have a fast download connection. Typical self-centered and shortsighted response of today's Average Joe.

I got a question for you though. Do you have a problem with people who are genuinely satisfied with steam as a service because it meets their needs or is it a problem with those who would try to force it on others? I'm a steam user myself and due to the fact my purchases usually aren't new I haven't had many problems with this issue.

[Fanged 1]

I would say yes as it allows players to also buy other games and is therefore more convenient, etc.

[onlyrazor 11]

I would say yes as it allows players to also buy other games and is therefore more convenient, etc.

You can buy games from Steam and not have Arma on it. That's the beauty of a non-Steamworks Arma. If you want Steam, you can still install it and make an account. Steamworks would mean that you would have to install it on your system no matter what. There's no convenience in having to install Steam if you want to play an otherwise unrelated game.

[Pulverizer 1]

There's no technical limitation to not have both a non-Steamworks (securom etc) version and a Steamworks version of Arma 3.

[Herbal Influence 10]

You like it, because its sweet and comfortable. Like a velvet sofa. Like colourful drops. And a lolipop.

You pay with your private data. You might consider them unimportant, because you consider yourself unimportant.

You pay with your freedom. Your freedom might be worthless, because you don't know how to use it.

They make a profit by taking people and Software Production Companies "by the hand" and feed them colorful sugar candies ...

BIS doesn't need anyone to take them by the hand.

They are excellent.

Without hot steam.

[amadieus 0]

What your average Total War player will tolerate, just so that he can play TW and not have to make a principled stand against Steam's illegal practices is no justification for what Steam do. What Steam are doing is clearly wrong, whether you look at it in terms of the consumer laws of most Western countries or simply in terms of common sense principle.

It has nothing to do with "fearing the unknown". In fact, it's having a clear understanding of exactly what Steam are doing which makes some of us dislike their business practices so much. Quite the opposite to fearing the unknown, my friend - the exact opposite in fact.

I agree that digital download, with a decent, fair and legal EULA, *IS* the future. And I personally welcome that. The problem is, Steam's EULA is not decent, fair and will more than likely be proven illegal in the not too distant future.

But all that doesn't concern you, eh? You're happy, as long as you have a fast download connection. Typical self-centered and shortsighted response of today's Average Joe.

Could you explain me how Steam is being unfair to the costumor?

Your opinion was fine but your last comment is a bit meh. You don't know me so i don't see why you have any reason to think i am a self-centered and shortsighted average Joe just because i like steam.

But i am intrested in hearing from you why steam is unfair to us.

[dmarkwick 261]

But i am intrested in hearing from you why steam is unfair to us.

Well, quite obviously it isn't :) Steam can be good for some people, and not good for other people. But there is a crossover subset who cannot/will not accept the notion of opinions. Steam is just a distribution/DRM system that works for the people it works for, and doesn't for the people it doesn't. As long as there's choice, it's all good :) and that's what this thread is centering on, the choice.

[jblackrupert 14]

If it wasn't for the sales Steam would have died a long long time ago.

Thats really it's only selling point and a good number of people gushing about it are just horders of $5 and under games they never play.

[Baff1 0]

£10 is my usual limit for a Steam required game.

I usually still spend some time feeling aggravated by it even at £10.

Long story short, if it needs Steam, I invariably don't launch it more than once or twice. So it's got to be a cheap buy.

[rainbird 1]

No, Steam is a model of a future standard for the distribution of games. It's a trailblazer whom other companies, offering similar "services", and game publishers (the money men looking for ways to extort as much coin as possible, not the actual developers) are watching very closely. If it can be proven that Steam's ideas are accepted by consumers, the key parts of its model will be used by all digital distributors of games. You can delude yourselves that there will "always be choice" and that you'll always be able to purchase your favourite games from other electronic distributors with "fairer EULAs" but that is simply naivety and a lack of understanding. Your "choice" to accept Steam's EULA is indeed your choice and I cannot deny that right. But on the other hand, your choice is helpng shape a standard of software distribution for us ALL.

You can already clearly see an increase in Steam's popularity - as people gradually get over their initial dislike of Steam's restrictive EULA, or just bite their tongue with bitter resent as they play a $60+ game which they do not truly own (remember that ownership is the right to re/sell and that a recent EU court ruling states that it is our RIGHT to resell our purchased software licenses). There are an increasing number of titles which are exclusive Steam titles which you have no choice but to register with Steam. Note that this is an increasing trend.

But, I have no intention of continuing this conversation with people who appear to have the foresite of a goldfish. As I say, your typical Average Joes - easily guided along any path as long as you can offer them quick and instant (gratification) access to their games, automatic updates and "convenience". I would urge you to be careful what you are prepared to sacrifice in the name of convenience but it would clearly fall on deaf ears.

Edited July 10, 2012 by rainbird

[BlueWolf 1]

I do not support user agreements that say it's ok to dig threw my garbage while I play games.

[shivars 1]

Ok I've just registered here (and gone through how many captchas and random questions....) to reply here.

I've been looking at Arma for a long time - I loved the original Operation Flashpoint, and want more of that.

But if I'm honest, these days no Steam = no buy. For me anyway.

Others feel the opposite and that's fine, but might I explain why...

- no disc. So i can't scratch it, lose it, etc. I don't have to find it when I want to play. I just clicky icon and game plays. In fact my PC is in a cupboard near me and doesn't even have a disc drive any more. Haven't used one since I installed Windows. Why would I...

- automatic patching. better yet, it patches while I'm at work. Not when get to the PC and want to play.

- cloud saves. So i don't have to worry about backups.

- achievements. Something trivial to aim for during/after completing the campaign (yes I like achievements, I'm not ashamed of that. if you don't...ignore them). I play games longer if they have achievements to aim for.

- its a nice community, the forums are reasonably intelligent, the site/friends/recommendations/etc are nice.

Steam really isn't bloatware, it really isn't intrusive, it's a nice game library. I've been using it since 2004 and I can't remember having one single problem with it. ever. full stop. It has only made my gaming life easier. nothing else. I can't think of a single mod or map pack I've not been able to use because of Steam.

Before anyone thinks I'm a pleb for wanting simplicity and time-saving...I'm not. I don't want to show off or come across as a knob, but I've been gaming since the Spectrum 48k. I made maps for the original Quake. My first PC had an 8086 CPU. I loved the original Counter Strike (pre 1.6!) - but I prefer CS:S now. I'm now 34, a Director in a market research firm, I have an 18 month old child and I somehow still game for around 14 hours/week.

But those 14 hours are precious to me. I do NOT want to spend them installing/backingup/messing around. I DO want to spend them enjoying great games - Steam makes it as easy and reliable as possible for me to do that.

Some people raise the privacy/data questions. I think it's clear that Steam does no more and no less than most modern software. What modern game doesn't have some sort of telemetry back to the devs. You use social networks right? what do you think your value is to them? Valve have shown many times that they are decent enough people - I'm comfortable enough with having their software on my PC. As much as anyone else's anyway...

Why am I bothering to write this? Well, I'd really like Arma 3 to have Steamworks - specifically for cloud saves and achievements. With those I'll buy it. Without them I won't. Sounds shallow I know, but there's enough good games about in enough genres - I'll buy and play the ones that tick the most boxes and get me the most excited.

Anyway, that's my 2c. Flame suit going on...

[nodunit 397]

Steam and Steamworks aren't the same thing, the game can be on steam, as Arma 2 and CO are right now, and A3 will likely be there in the same manner.

Edited July 25, 2012 by NodUnit

[onlyrazor 11]

The problem with Steamworks is forcing Steam on those who don't want it. Much like you and many others like Steam and appreciate its finer points, there's loads of people who dislike it for its downsides like an odd offline mode and the fact you can't rollback to previous versions of games - a much publicized fact after the OA/CO 1.62 patch.

Also, a disc version is infinitely better for places with bad, unregular or expensive internet, especially in when the ISPs throttle you or charge you per gigabyte. Steam itself is okay, it's Steamworks that agitates people.

Achievements are okay, unless they involve multiplayer. 'Quirky' achievements in multiplayer are just unnecessary distractions, such as "Blow up a plane with an unguided AT rocket" and require special attention from the developers to make them not only interact well with gameplay, but also to include the achievement conditions.

I generally turn Steam off to keep it from consuming system resources - minimal, I guess, especially with an SSD, but still.

Quite honestly, reconsider cloud saves and achievements - saves generally become incompatible between updates anyway and achievements are forgotten once they're mostly done, especially if they don't bring benefits. Don't let those things keep you away from a splendid game.

Cheers.

[crazyjake56 10]

I thought it was confirmed they weren't using steamworks anyway. Why are we talking about this?

[onlyrazor 11]

I thought it was confirmed they weren't using steamworks anyway. Why are we talking about this?

I think we're just discussing pros and cons here. The Gamestar interview mostly killed the possibility of it happening, though:

Q: Will the game require a Steam-activation?

Dan: We are currently evaluating this. Most probably, we won't be bound to Steam, but we will use some kind of protection.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

I bought ArmA and ArmA2 from Steam. In both cases I ended up uninstalling the games and buying the DVD versions for multiple reasons. Horrible patching, ridiculously delayed patching, full game instead of only changed file patching, Steam problems preventing me from playing my games, having to log in to play my games online even for single player (and no, 'offline mode' is not a valid solution since you have to be online to enable that, so if my cable goes down I'm out of luck), Steam's moronicly long file path causes mods to break, registry nonsense to even get the game to play and so on...

I've never had problems with DVD versions and I've only had problems with Steam versions for ArmA. For some games it's just fine, but for ArmA... DVD always. Also, leaderboards are for silly people.

Sounds to me like the ArmA devs not doing a particularly good job using the tools afforded to them by Steam. I've never had any issues with any game on Steam that I wouldn't have with a DVD copy. Also, you don't have to be online to enable offline mode. I do it all the time when my internet runs out and Steam loses connection.

That said, the game doesn't need the fancy steam support some games get. As long as it's available on steam I'll be happy, let it be on DVD and USB and zip drive and whatever it wants to be on. Cloud saves would be nice if they kept all of your editor stuff on the cloud, but otherwise I don't care that much about the optional steamworks features. I just like having it on steam.

[crazyjake56 10]

Also, you don't have to be online to enable offline mode. I do it all the time when my internet runs out and Steam loses connection.

That said, the game doesn't need the fancy steam support some games get.

How would you do that?

[Ekko 1]

I like steam a lot, my favorite games are on that platform (only 50 :( ). If ArmA 3 doesn't have a gamelauncher with auto-patch then steam is where I will buy it. Copies are just old anyway, but kids still buy them.

Joining games through Steam would be very simple too. Btw Bought Combined operations in steam and it wasn't expensive at all.

[gossamersolid 155]

I would buy most games on steam, but one series I'll never buy is the ArmA series on steam.

Combined Operations needs a goddamn batch file to run on Steam, that's ghetto as fuck. I'd rather just install my two games to the same folder and have them work properly.

[dunnobe 10]

I just want my game on gamersgate.com

It's basically the dvd you download.

I don't need nor want any form of statistics, achievements and what so ever.

[Foxtrop 10]

I dont really care if is Steam or not, Im happy if they sell virtual and physic copies to buy, i would prefer a physic copy but as the taxes in my country it would be cheaper a virtual copy, also it would be better a system from bohemia that allow you to check the updates of the mods and the updates of the tools

[rainbird 1]

....Well, I'd really like Arma 3 to have Steamworks - specifically for cloud saves and achievements. With those I'll buy it. Without them I won't....

Well, thankfully ArmA 3 will not include such pointless and unnecessary features. :rolleyes: So no ArmA 3 for you (lol) and you best begin your search for an "alternative" ArmA 3 Steam based game, I guess. Good luck with that - you'll need it, considering the fact that there is no ArmA alternative out there.

Tisk, tisk, the things people will forsake in the name of this strange Steam addiction..

Edited July 31, 2012 by rainbird

[Herbal Influence 10]

.... begin your search for an "alternative" ArmA 3 Steam based game, I guess. Good luck with that - you'll need it, considering the fact that there is no ArmA alternative out there.

Tisk, tisk, the things people will forsake in the name of this strange Steam addiction..

In fact that is what I think too. It's some kind of strange addiction. I cannot take it for serious, sorry.

Like one guy earlier posted he has 300 games with steam and wants absolutely Arma3 be part of that collection: What the f***? I don't need cogamers who just jump into a mission to show up and haste on because they have 14 hrs / week divided by 300 games? I don't need cogamers who are too lazy to start a game "outside" steam because they feel it's cold "outside" or "frightening". It's like people who skip all their friends that are not on facebook. Maybe they have to. Maybe they do no more feel a reality besides facebook or steam ... ? Like people who walk to McDonalds to eat? And forgot about the joy of cooking yourself since long? :confused:

[Cwivey 1]

I would buy most games on steam, but one series I'll never buy is the ArmA series on steam.

Combined Operations needs a goddamn batch file to run on Steam, that's ghetto as fuck. I'd rather just install my two games to the same folder and have them work properly.

Well, it used to be like that, now combined operations runs when you run ArmA2:OA, nothing else needs to be done. (May have come in around the 1.59 patch or around there)

As for SteamWorks, seeing people's knee jerk reactions to it make me say No to it. It'd just cause so much fuss. :X