ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[5133p39 14]

Are you absolutely certain about this? If I can get a 100% guarantee that this information is correct then I will have no qualms whatsoever about making the purchase. Maybe we can get a dev to verify this, I really think it would make a lot of people less apprehensive about buying the game if it's true.

Well, i just tried with some other games (i dont have ArmA currently installed) and i stand corrected: After disabling my internet connection, and switching to offline mode, it worked only until i closed Steam and started it again - then it terminates with error message:

Unable to connect to the Steam network. 'Offline Mode' is unavailable because there is no Steam login information stored on this computer.

You will not be able to use Steam until you can connect to the Steam network again.

So, if ArmA3 will be having the same problem, then something should be done about it, because this is not acceptable even for me.

[tonygrunt 10]

All of those reasons are pretty laughable and I hate to say it but you're being very naive about this entire topic.

Why exactly are they laughable? The steam TOS says exactly what they can and will do if they choose to. What guarantees does steam provide that their business model will stay here indefinitely and won't have to change in the future to stay profitable, possible endangering your past purchases?

[Kuskov 1]

Well, i just tried with some other games (i dont have ArmA currently installed) and i stand corrected: After disabling my internet connection, and switching to offline mode, it worked only until i closed Steam and started it again - then it terminates with error message:So, if ArmA3 will be having the same problem, then something should be done about it, because this is not acceptable even for me.

Thanks for replying mate. I'm dissapointed to say that I'm going to have to give this game a miss because I simply can't turn a blind eye to this Steam fiasco. I wish the guys that do decide to purchase ARMA 3 the best of luck.

[Deadfast 43]

Well, i just tried with some other games (i dont have ArmA currently installed) and i stand corrected: After disabling my internet connection, and switching to offline mode, it worked only until i closed Steam and started it again - then it terminates with error message:So, if ArmA3 will be having the same problem, then something should be done about it, because this is not acceptable even for me.

Oh, so the offline mode works as well as it ever did.

[tonygrunt 10]

Well, i just tried with some other games (i dont have ArmA currently installed) and i stand corrected: After disabling my internet connection, and switching to offline mode, it worked only until i closed Steam and started it again - then it terminates with error message:So, if ArmA3 will be having the same problem, then something should be done about it, because this is not acceptable even for me.

The recommended way to going in offline mode is to select from the steam menu "Go Offline". You should also have started at least once the games you want to play before going offline.

[Zyromkiru 10]

Oh, so the offline mode works as well as it ever did.

Offline mode works perfectly fine for me if i close it, restart it, etc.

.. also for earlier posts

C. Termination by Valve.

Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees, will be granted.

They don't say "for no reason". so.... they can't terminate people for no good reason

They won't give refunds if you do this: for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity not just in general, otherwise they would have to say it in the agreement.

[NoQuarter 0]

True, but is it enough reason for you to resent it? Because even if Steam wouldn't add any additional value to the game itself, it won't hurt you using it (and i mean you specifically, as you didn't complained about crappy internet connection).

And more importantly, think about what was written on the bistudio.com, saying that "The bottom-line: we feel that without going Steam-exclusive, we would not be able to release Arma 3 in 2013." - someone would say "i don't care how long it takes, just ditch the Steam and take the time", but time is money, and even though BI really is listening to its fan base, they are still running a business, which must inevitably result in some compromises such as this one.

I don't resent Steam... it would be kind of hard to, having never used it.

No, if any resentment is involved that would come from being put in the position of either accepting a condition (Steam platform) that I find truly unnecessary, or not purchasing the product that I was looking forward to.

Couple that with the way that this news was shoveled out to us as though we were (the catch word of the day) ignorant.

The bottom-line: I don't -for a New York minute- believe the speculation that it was either Steam-Exclusive or cancelation.

____

I've got one for you:

Based on this decision, how many man-hours do you suppose will be saved in overall development on the title, and then during the subsequent support phase(s)?

[iceman77 18]

Okay since some people want a reason, here are three:

3 very valid reasons to dislike steam. Add to that the simple fact that it's never been required... But who cares right? "Steam be cutting edge yo"!! :rolleyes:

Do they include a limited edition, extra cool, most bestest, jump key bind when you preorder? No wait!! I want my limited edition M9!!!

Edited February 24, 2013 by Iceman77

[5133p39 14]

So by your definition, if you bought a DVD/Bluray movie or a music CD you would never give it to another person or watch it together because it denies more business to the media holders. No movie night with your family before you buy one copy for each of them. Want to hear some music on the stereo, all the rest must leave the house.

Bought a movie and you liked it, tell your friends how good it is and they should buy it or rent it but never give them your copy. At least if he buys his own, you can meet and watch it together. Strange concept.

Or do only games have this special treatment. Why, because they don't break over time? My electric generator is 25+ years old (probably will outlive me :) ) and I borrow it to friends and family when they need it, shouldn't by your definition feel bad that I stop possible sales of generators. Really strange concept.

I think you are trying to twist my words into a different meaning.

Speaking from the legal perspective, you can do whatever you are allowed to do within the rights given to you. And the rights might be different, depending on laws and the deal you made - if the retailer, you bought some game/DVD/CD from, legaly allows you to give it away, or sell it, then its fine.

But if you agreed on the terms that you are buying a NON-TRASFERABLE LICENSE to use a SW product, then you should behave within the boundaries set by such license, or you shouldn't make such deal in the first place.

And then there is my personal feeling, that even if the terms allowed it, i would just felt really cheap if i would buy a game and then sell it again after i finish playing it.

btw. i have no idea how it is in your country, but in mine it is perfectly legal to watch a movie or listen to a music with family or friends, without having to buy a DVD/CD for each of them :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just curious why BIS didn't thought about their own store as an alternative online store for selling A3 and their new projects?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Just curious why BIS didn't thought about their own store as an alternative online store for selling A3 and their new projects?

I suppose they still can sell it with a steam key.

[iceman77 18]

Just curious why BIS didn't thought about their own store as an alternative online store for selling A3 and their new projects?

Well apparently, that wouldn't be good enough. They need to speed up dat deb time!!

[NoRailgunner 0]

ProfTournesol guess this won't change "Steam exclusive" and isn't so much of an alternative. ;)

[tonygrunt 10]

I think you are trying to twist my words into a different meaning.

Speaking from the legal perspective, you can do whatever you are allowed to do within the rights given to you. And the rights might be different, depending on laws and the deal you made - if the retailer, you bought some game/DVD/CD from, legaly allows you to give it away, or sell it, then its fine.

But if you agreed on the terms that you are buying a NON-TRASFERABLE LICENSE to use a SW product, then you should behave within the boundaries set by such license, or you shouldn't make such deal in the first place.

So if they implemented a NON-TRANSFERABLE LICENSE for every product you wouldn't complain, would you? Because this is what most of the people are doing here, complaining for the gradual loss of their rights.

btw. i have no idea how it is in your country, but in mine it is perfectly legal to watch a movie or listen to a music with family or friends, without having to buy a DVD/CD for each of them :)

I believe it should be legal pretty much everywhere. The question is what will you do when they implement a NON-TRANSFERABLE LICENSE to these. Would you feel cheated and complain for something that previously was deemed in your rights to do or would you follow the TOS, no questions asked?

[ProfTournesol 956]

ProfTournesol guess this won't change "Steam exclusive" and isn't so much of an alternative. ;)

Indeed :)

[5133p39 14]

The recommended way to going in offline mode is to select from the steam menu "Go Offline". You should also have started at least once the games you want to play before going offline.

Thats exactly what i did, except i also disabled my internet connection.

The games works only if i log in to Steam, and then go offline - if i restart Steam (or computer) after Steam was set to offline mode, and dont let it go online, it complains with said message and most games wont start.

BUT there is nothing that would suggest the same problem will be with ArmA3, so no need to panic yet (or maybe just slightly ;-))

[Steiner34 12]

Okay since some people want a reason, here are three:

Aha. So I have to log into Steam at least every 30 days to check if there were no points added to the agreement in which for example I grant Valve the right to use my created content (Missions or addons) for free when- and wherever they want. If I don't do so, I agree to everything added within the 30 days. And if I don't agree to everything they add, the only way is to cancel my account - and lose my games. Decline and continue to the old conditions is not an option.

Offline mode? Yeah sure.

So if I decide to cancel my account I lose all my games, no refund, no option to give the game to someone else. Poof it's all gone! (My money too, of course)

If tomorrow I cancel my BI Store account I will still be able to use my games, I'm just no more able to download them.

So Valve can cancel my account at any time, with no reason. In which case I lose all my games and spent money (of course). It might be enough that a support clerk doesn't like the way I communicate with him.

"Nah that's not gonna happen" you say. Yeah maybe not, but the possibility is there right?

Seriously, do any of you actually read what you agree to or just click okay and hope everything will be alright (aka 'screw this wall of text, I wanna play now!!!)? Obviously, else some of you wouldn't tell us such stuff like "Steam EULA is not worse than others".

If I don't agree to the BI Store terms anymore I still have my games, no matter what. If I purchased a physical copy I have the game no matter what changes the distributor adds to his conditions.

I have four good reasons now not to use this crap. But feel free to continue praising Steam as the perfect platform which ain't that bad after all...

Well said Sir. Also dont forget this part in the Steam EULA

A. License Terms.

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Software onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement, including the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software. To make use of the Software, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions of or otherwise enhance the Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Software may change over time. You understand that this Agreement (including applicable Subscription Terms) do not entitle you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Software associated with a particular Subscription, although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

So with Steam you only get a limited, terminable and and non exclusive license to play this game. Also in next parapgraph Steam says that it is not even entitled as a third party service to bring out future updates to any games you have bought. For me this is a horrible fraud.

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

You're paying full price for what is effectively a game rental. Do you not see a problem with this?

eddieck, good point, with all the have to dos to run the game, that being having to start steam and then launch the game,

make me wonder why i really need all the steam features/limitations/possible threat if i do something againsted the steam policies just to play the game I bought,

I mean seriously i just want to play the game, why do I "have" use steam to play the game, this is one extra thing i need to do in order to do something with the game.

What if i want to run 3 versions of the game at the same time doing various tests in 3 different missions to compare notes, can i do that, i'm not so sure.

I know you can play in offline mode np as i have done so with Skyrim when i had no internet. Funny thing was, just s story be patient with me, last year when

i had no internet for a number of weeks to a month the only way to have been able to play Skyrim at the time when i bought it was if i had internet, i had the

disk version but you need to verify or confirm or something before you can play, so that being said what happens when someone without internet cannot

play the game even though they have it?

What if they don't want to update their game with the latest patch?

What if BIS releases a beta patch like the normally do, how will that work?

Will we be forced to update our game and experience maybe some bugs and problems with the game, possibly

crashing it and making it unplayable til they fix it with another beta?

I think Arma3 sales will be extraordinary if the option was there to both buy the game through steam and have it available for

digital download which would be the game independent of steam.

Yes steam would be alot easier just through its platform, but what do you want?, less work and easier or smoother productivity?

or do you want more money you can put towards more development and features or things that could ultimately better the game for all thus increasing sales for

another title be it Arma4 or even a DLC.

[tonygrunt 10]

So with Steam you only get a limited, terminable and and non exclusive license to play this game. Also in next parapgraph Steam says that it is not even entitled as a third party service to bring out future updates to any games you have bought. For me this is a horrible fraud.

This is more to cover themselves when 3rd party games don't make the required compatible patch to publish on steam, leaving said games unpatched. See related thread "Unpatched games on Steam".

[Raptor 10]

Okay since some people want a reason, here are three:

Aha. So I have to log into Steam at least every 30 days to check if there were no points added to the agreement in which for example I grant Valve the right to use my created content (Missions or addons) for free when- and wherever they want. If I don't do so, I agree to everything added within the 30 days. And if I don't agree to everything they add, the only way is to cancel my account - and lose my games. Decline and continue to the old conditions is not an option.

Offline mode? Yeah sure.

So if I decide to cancel my account I lose all my games, no refund, no option to give the game to someone else. Poof it's all gone! (My money too, of course)

If tomorrow I cancel my BI Store account I will still be able to use my games, I'm just no more able to download them.

So Valve can cancel my account at any time, with no reason. In which case I lose all my games and spent money (of course). It might be enough that a support clerk doesn't like the way I communicate with him.

"Nah that's not gonna happen" you say. Yeah maybe not, but the possibility is there right?

Seriously, do any of you actually read what you agree to or just click okay and hope everything will be alright (aka 'screw this wall of text, I wanna play now!!!)? Obviously, else some of you wouldn't tell us such stuff like "Steam EULA is not worse than others".

If I don't agree to the BI Store terms anymore I still have my games, no matter what. If I purchased a physical copy I have the game no matter what changes the distributor adds to his conditions.

+1,

valid arguments.

[5133p39 14]

So if they implemented a NON-TRANSFERABLE LICENSE for every product you wouldn't complain, would you?

Honestly i dont think i would, i never planned on selling the games or any other SW i "own" - so i guess it would make no difference for me.

I believe it should be legal pretty much everywhere. The question is what will you do when they implement a NON-TRANSFERABLE LICENSE to these. Would you feel cheated and complain for something that previously was deemed in your rights to do or would you follow the TOS, no questions asked?

I am not sure what you are trying to say. You mean to movies, or music? If i understand correctly, i guess such license wouldn't change anything in this regard - unless the appropriate laws also gets changed in order to allow such thing - anyway, what does it have to do with anything?

---------- Post added at 10:54 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

Offline mode works perfectly fine for me if i close it, restart it, etc.

Yes, but even though you switched to Offline Mode, you still have a working internet connection right?

Try to disable your network adapter, then restart Steam, and see what happens...

Imagine your NIC dies, or your provider will be having some temporary problem - until it gets fixed (a day? two days? depending on the problem and provider), you won't be able to play once you restart Steam (depending on the game - so who knows, you might still be able to play ArmA 3).

This really sucks - i thought the "offline mode" is what it says, but apparently it isn't.

[Zyromkiru 10]

Well said Sir. Also dont forget this part in the Steam EULA

So with Steam you only get a limited, terminable and and non exclusive license to play this game. Also in next parapgraph Steam says that it is not even entitled as a third party service to bring out future updates to any games you have bought. For me this is a horrible fraud.

For people freaking out this is only so steam doesn't have millions of people going after them for stupid reasons. If you actually read the agreement for ANYTHING online they will be quite the same and sound bad.

I have been on steam for a while and they have been great to me. If you want rights taken away get involved with apple/itunes and such and they literally will screw you over since all they personally want is money.

Yes, but even though you switched to Offline Mode, you still have a working internet connection right?

Try to disable your network adapter, then restart Steam, and see what happens...

Imagine your NIC dies, or your provider will be having some temporary problem - until it gets fixed (a day? two days? depending on the problem and provider), you won't be able to play once you restart Steam (depending on the game - so who knows, you might still be able to play ArmA 3).

This really sucks - i thought the "offline mode" is what it says, but apparently it isn't.

I have before I had to have no internet on my laptop for about a week so I used offline mode and worked fine

[tonygrunt 10]

Honestly i dont think i would, i never planned on selling the games or any other SW i "own" - so i guess it would make no difference for me.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. You mean to movies, or music? If i understand correctly, i guess such license wouldn't change anything in this regard - unless the appropriate laws also gets changed in order to allow such thing - anyway, what does it have to do with anything?

I am just trying to understand why you allow such liberties to digital products because they come with a TOS (that sometimes can't even stand on a court of law), in regards to physical products. And it is already happening with movies and music. Try to give or borrow part of your iTunes music/video library, you can't. So you buy a DVD movie and you can give it away, you buy a iTunes movie and is stuck with you forever until you break the TOS.

People are complaining for their gradual loss of their consumer rights they had and I don't understand how you can't see it.

Example, take any old game (console/pc) in physical form you can give it to your child/nephew and they can play with no problem. Now comes the digital way, I pay the same money which I am only allowed to play it as long as I don't break any TOS rules and of course I can't give it to someone else. Doing so would break the rules.

Can't you really not see any difference, anything that will make some of us complain?

[Alex72 1]

Im counting a lot of bullshit votes for "no" with newly created accounts. Come on people at least act like adults - or cheat more professional... :j:

[chortles 263]

We never had any mods which alter the .exe so far and we won't see any, simply because it's not allowed nor necessary to manipulate the arma2/3.exe - that's really nothing to worry about.

I'm strictly against Steam as we all know, but the horror stories that Steam prevents Modding are just that: Horror stories.

The only thing that can prevent modding is BI not releasing the required tools and then

A good perspective: lack of mod support is way, way worse to Arma's future than Steamworks is! For all our disagreement, W0lle, high five :D

Of course, see all the people who (despite their misgivings over Steam) would make their judgment based on whether on not specific features are included or not -- some of which are up to BI, not Valve/Steam, such as offline LAN/direct IP multiplayer (since, again, Steam itself does not inherently block these, it just won't magically add them if the devs don't include them to begin with).

Third point, Nvidia is offering F2P credit, not games.

At SuperBiiz though they're still as of this post offering Assassin's Creed III with certain NVIDIA cards such as ASUS 660 Ti OC'd.

It will depend on which country you are in. I can only speak from a UK perspective. I've found Amazon and at time Play to be cheaper than steam. Gog also. Any mug can hold a sale, it's the off sale prices that I'll look at to see what type of pricing strategy an outlet uses.

I'll agree here that sometimes the Steam storefront (as opposed to the Steam DRM/client) has higher prices than the aforementioned other retailers -- but then again, I'm concerned about "absolute price" (read: how much it says on my receipt) more than 'type of pricing strategy'; I once saw Arma 2: CO for US$7.50 on Amazon!

maybe you won't be able to create different mod profiles?

What do you mean by "mod profiles" here exactly?

By the way, for everyone who's paranoid about someone stealing your precious mods and then uploading them onto Steam Workshop... did you know that being a Steamworks game does not guarantee that the game will have Steam Workshop? :p There's way more Steamworks games than there are Steam Workshop-supported games; such "no Steam Workshop Steamworks games" include all of the Call of Duty games post-World at War, Sleeping Dogs, Darksiders II, Napoleon: Total War... so if you're one of those for whom the whole exclusive DRM/third-party client aspect is not a deal-breaker but concern over your intellectual property rights is... then why not demand to BI/Maruk that Arma 3 be one of those "no Steam Workshop Steamworks games"? :D

As DayZ mod being on the Steam storefront shows, Steam Workshop is not the only hosting solution on Steam, and DayZ is not just an exception to "everything else is Half-Life 2/Source engine mods"; there's a mod of the Killing Floor standalone and a pair of Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 mods, which does indicate that it's not all "Steam Workshop forever" from hereon out. If Arma 3 never gets Steam Workshop (despite the inevitable pressure) and modding is still supported in a manner similar to before, then I imagine that sites such as Armaholic could continue much as before.

Im counting a lot of bullshit votes for "no" with newly created accounts. Come on people at least act like adults - or cheat more professional... :j:

So someone was accusing the "yes" voters in the other thread's poll of being alts when that was basically 80% yes vs. 20% no, now you're saying that so many of the "no" voters in this poll are the alts/cheaters? Interesting, tell me more. :icon_twisted: