Realistic Wounds and treatment for ARMA 3

[Tom1 10]

@xioness although alot of data talking about ammunition versus body armour is not floating around the internet, enough is to get a rough idea on how many shots at what speed will destory armour/ penetrate. I did some simple 'philosophying' :p on the first post talking about how many 5.56, 5.45 and 5.8 shots will be required to break the armour (standard ball rounds) which is decent in my oppinion. Stuff like 762 is much easier as that ammunition is what the armour is tested against and that information is readilly avaliable.

When it comes to 50cals, there isn't much that they wont penetrate regardless of range, I don't know heaps about 50cals and other sniper ammunition but Rye might be able to give some detailled information if he wants as he knows his 50cals very well :)

In the previous more realistic suggestion unpenetrating rounds would still 'wind' the player which was simulated by reduced stamina but this is probably unnessecary, a simple "ouch" could show that you have been hit.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well, regardless of medic complexity developed, it should remain in the realm of the module IMO. Sometimes, in a game, you should accept the fact that the avatar you control has these skills, and that when you apply them, they get used. As such a medic should really be a "heal" only function.

But, all this good stuff can go into a module for sure. I'd just wouldn't like to see it forced onto the default gameplay.

[rye1 21]

But a medic has the skills but still the diagnosis process takes place and then applying what is needed off that, it's not too complex in my opinion but I'd have to agree with you if people did consider this complex. This could just be the advanced version, the basic being click a button. Fine by me, I'm sure the guys who support this thread would agree also.

[Tom1 10]

@DMarwick What do you mean, other than the morphine the first aid kits used by soldiers and medkits used by medics essensially only give units the same capabilities they have now, its just that with these items it not only feels more authentic but it will open a widnow for animations and also the possibility for medics and soldiers to run out of medical supplies making the game more challenging and giving medic backpacks a purpose but without actually changing any vanilla mechanics at all, asides for improved incapacitation and body armour which would benifit everyone by making the game more realistic and authentic.

[dmarkwick 261]

@DMarwick What do you mean, other than the morphine the first aid kits used by soldiers and medkits used by medics essensially only give units the same capabilities they have now, its just that with these items it not only feels more authentic but it will open a widnow for animations and also the possibility for medics and soldiers to run out of medical supplies making the game more challenging and giving medic backpacks a purpose but without actually changing any vanilla mechanics at all, asides for improved incapacitation and body armour which would benifit everyone by making the game more realistic and authentic.

If the gameplay itself remains a simple "heal" action choice, then fair enough. If you need to make a decision based on what the injury is, then it's outside of default game territory I feel. But, a module solves all that. No-one plays the game unless they're in a mission created by someone, and thus a module will either be there or not. Any realism-based mission will have that module. But I feel it should be a mission design decision, not a default gameplay feature.

[Tom1 10]

Yeah I feel the same way, my previous idea for a much more advanced system could be discussed with the ace team closer to release, but a simple yet improved medical system is what IMO arma 3 vanilla needs.

[M.Andersson(SWE) 4]

Im all for realism. But not to the extent that the game becomes unplayable...(Crosshairs)

This is a milsim game, and as such they should strive to add "all" the

aspects of such a game.

A medicalsystem were you actually HAVE to take wounded and other

casualties in to count is way high up on my wishlist.

"The best way to take out a group is to wound 2-3 of them"

But for that to work you need TEAMPLAY (pvp) and

an SUPERAWSOME AI engine..

Let say you play Domination.

Sure the PLAYER team knows how to take care of wounded.

But the AI seems reluctant to treat their comrads in pain.

So advantage AI...Should be EQUAL for "Balance"...

[PeterC 10]

AI should try to help friends, and they do, or at least with Zeus AI.

Just gonna give a bit of a medical rant.... Fentnyl should be used instead of morphine because it works faster in the field that morphine. Morphine takes a while to take affect (5 minutes), with fentnyl it only takes 1 minute, if you DO use morphine a player should have thje pain slowly go away over 5 minutes.

[ghostnineone 10]

what does morphine even do in ace? ive tried leaving my character with pain but it doesnt seem to effect anything at all.

i dont think they need to implement casevac and stuff because you could already implement that yourself, i think most players would be kind of annoyed by getting shot, having the medic take a few minutes to heal them, and then after that they cant even respawn or whatever until they get moved back to an aid station, that seems a little too overkill imo, plus in story mode that would be annoying as hell.

a system like AA3s would be perfect, where you have injuries and symptoms and have to treat them properly, like someone else said if they made it a little bit longer (i dont even think the actual healing part takes more than 30 seconds) it would be perfect, i havent decided on whether or not they should have to carry supplies, and what happens if you die? because if you respawn then medics arent really needed that much as people would just respawn

[Xiones11 10]

Isn't epinephrine a synthetic version of adrenaline?

[ghostnineone 10]

im pretty sure it is adrenaline, its pretty dangerous to use on someone with a gsw because your heart rate increases which means you bleed out faster, and if they have a pneumo or hemothorax (air or blood in the chest cavity), then the increased respiratory rate as a result from epi will cause your chest to fill with air faster and kill you, or the increases heart rate causes your chest to fill with blood and you either bleed out or the blood suffocates you/crushes your lungs, unless the medic runs a chest tube (which is usually done by doctors), certain blood vessels and veins and arteries will either expand under epi or contract (too much blood flowing through a vein could cause you to bleed out, and effect your blood pressure), epi is only used for cardiac arrest along with a defibrillator and CPR, your heart is not contracting properly, ventricular-fibrillation (v-fib) , or Pulseless Ventricular Tachycardia (PVT or V-Tac) , you can attempt to shock v-tac and v-fib back into a normal rhythm, but you cannot shock asystole or pulseless electrical activity (defibrillators do not work if there is no heart activity, so they dont work if you dont have a heart beat) epi would be used to increase the heart rate so the above actions have more of an effect (CPR is essentially used to manually circulate blood and oxygen to keep you from going brain dead, it doesnt save people that much like it does in the movies, so the increased blood flow is a positive) or anaphylactic shock or superficial bleeding.

but its been awhile since ive had to think about any of this stuff so i may be wrong :p

Edited July 20, 2011 by ghostnineone

[max power 21]

Isn't epinephrine a synthetic version of adrenaline?

They both refer to the same thing. There is a trademarked product called adrenalin (without the e), which might be what you are thinking of. My textbooks all refer to the neurotransmitter it as epinephrine, tho.

[rye1 21]

Surgeons prefer to add epinephrine to the lidocaine in order to help stop any superficial bleeding, I don't know about combat medics. It really is a last resort, do or die situation and you'd have to take your chances. All manuals I have read state first and foremost, for use when a patient is in anaphylactic shock - basically a severe allergic reaction. It CAN be used for other things but is normally mixed or at certain doses to do the job, and it is hardly ever used for cardiac arrest because of the chance of cocking things up but if you had to then you'd have to. It's made for the professionals is all I can say.

In emergency medicine, including both trauma and clinical settings, any individual that undergoes cardiac arrest has to receive epinephrine, regardless of the cause. It's is indeed part of the ACLS protocol. Epinephrine is a natural hormone produced by the body itself (more precisely by the adrenal glands) that acts on the metabolism of several tissues. Most importantly of all of its functions, it stimulates cardiac tissue contraction and blood flow to specific organs, including the heart itself and the lungs. In the case of wounds caused by gun shots or debris from grenades such as does that usually occur in ArmA, the most important thing to do even before administrating such drug is to control the bleeding otherwise increasing heart rate and blood flow could cause the patient to bleed out and die. So, yes epinephrine must also be used in this setting if the patient is in cardiac arrest but only after bleeding has stopped or at least diminished.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

Rye said:

Surgeons prefer to add epinephrine to the lidocaine in order to help stop any superficial bleeding, I don't know about combat medics. It really is a last resort, do or die situation and you'd have to take your chances. All manuals I have read state first and foremost, for use when a patient is in anaphylactic shock - basically a severe allergic reaction. It CAN be used for other things but is normally mixed or at certain doses to do the job, and it is hardly ever used for cardiac arrest because of the chance of cocking things up but if you had to then you'd have to. It's made for the professionals is all I can say.

In emergency medicine, including both trauma and clinical settings, any individual that undergoes cardiac arrest has to receive epinephrine, regardless of the cause. It's is indeed part of the ACLS protocol. Epinephrine is a natural hormone produced by the body itself (more precisely by the adrenal glands) that acts on the metabolism of several tissues. Most importantly of all of its functions, it stimulates cardiac tissue contraction and blood flow to specific organs, including the heart itself and the lungs. In the case of wounds caused by gun shots or debris from grenades such as does that usually occur in ArmA, the most important thing to do even before administrating such drug is to control the bleeding otherwise increasing heart rate and blood flow could cause the patient to bleed out and die. So, yes epinephrine must also be used in this setting if the patient is in cardiac arrest but only after bleeding has stopped or at least diminished.

 

[rye1 21]

I'm British born and have American friends, I can't help it. :D

[dmarkwick 261]

IMO this thread is a good example of (potential) medical systems being too complex. IMO the medic should "know" what to do in the same way that a pilot "knows" what to do, but the player just flies.

Medic should heal, he does what he can with what he's got and with the injury he's presented with, and the results calculated from that. Getting the player to administer various drugs dependant on type of injury is far far overkill.

[ghostnineone 10]

IMO this thread is a good example of (potential) medical systems being too complex. IMO the medic should "know" what to do in the same way that a pilot "knows" what to do, but the player just flies.

Medic should heal, he does what he can with what he's got and with the injury he's presented with, and the results calculated from that. Getting the player to administer various drugs dependant on type of injury is far far overkill.

that is pretty much exactly the medical system i want in arma, earlier on they explain why you have to treat shallow breathing with an OPA or labored movement with a splint, etc. there are only 4 options so its not that difficult to remember, and you treat the actual injuries by holding a button, i think it has a good balance between not being a magic heal, and is more realistic than ace's "put bandages, epi (which medics almost never use), and morphine (which takes too long to be effective) on everything" system of treatment (i never get the CPR option)

arma should take a page out of AA3s book because all of their tutorials are really good and actually help you play the game better and i really love their lean and fire drill with the m4 as its really good practice for reaction time and accuracy

[dmarkwick 261]

that is pretty much exactly the medical system i want in arma, earlier on they explain why you have to treat shallow breathing with an OPA or labored movement with a splint, etc. there are only 4 options so its not that difficult to remember, and you treat the actual injuries by holding a button, i think it has a good balance between not being a magic heal, and is more realistic than ace's "put bandages, epi (which medics almost never use), and morphine (which takes too long to be effective) on everything" system of treatment (i never get the CPR option)

arma should take a page out of AA3s book because all of their tutorials are really good and actually help you play the game better and i really love their lean and fire drill with the m4 as its really good practice for reaction time and accuracy

This is why it should remain module-based. That video made the medical system look tedious and overdeveloped. I'm all for extra features but as far as default gameplay goes, the medic should just "heal". It's difficult enough getting people to play medics in the first place :)

There are really, pragmatically, only two steps for medical healing, get into safety, and heal. So a drag system needs to be implemented that is easy to do and quicker than the current ArmA2 drag, and then a heal that leaves the injured soldier in an appropriate state for his injury and the medic's supplies.

All that other stuff - module it.

[rye1 21]

See that would be good. A training session at the start of Arma to get this stuff. It's not hardd at all -> Cardiac arrest = x item, not breathing = x item, these conditions = x problem.

[ghostnineone 10]

i dont see why they cant implement a system like aa3s with the medic modules, as the people who want realism are going to turn them on, and the people who dont will leave on the magic heal, thats essentially what i would prefer, i always like the option of being able to not use something if i dont want to (i really dont know what the 3 modules even do apart from them being able to fall over and wait to be healed), i just think a little bit more realism would be nice since it looks like theyre fleshing everything else out a bit more (like putting in ToH's flight model)

[Tom1 10]

I post an advanced and complex system and get bad feedback on how it is unneccesary, now i get feedback for a simple medic system and get feedback saying that more realism would be better :p

IMHO a system like AA3 in the sense medics have multiple treatment options and the possibility to screw up would be sick, and I will try and find a backup of my previous suggestion and post to show you what I mean, although a really different system involving changing the AI a lot is going to mean a lot of work for BIS and lots of problems ironing out bugs after release.

Yes havign it optional in a module would be cool, but the modules we currently have don't make massive changes to the game when activated, but rather some small changes similar to the default game. Vanila arma 2 there is no incapacitation (asides broken legs) and medic can heal this, in the module there is only really two differences, soldiers can heal to a certain extent (not fix broken legs though) and people who are shot in lower body become incapacitated with a different animation and can crawl about ect ect, medics can still fully heal.

My point is having a module that adds a lot of treatment items, states of wounds, AI changes, lots of scripts when activated, and having one - two shot kills with no medics (asides broken legs) or any treatment options at all when deactivated is a lot for BIS to work on too very different systems both with working AI, especially when in the campaign it wouldnt be used, and both AI systems (very very different to each other) need to be working up to scratch.

It would be great if BIS did do something like this, although in reality it is quite unlikely they will, although if you want you can join me and nag ACE team closer to release :D

The current suggestion is just an upgraded AIS module (those three modules in editor) which would further increase the realism, the realistic flow of combat and also realistic prioritising (I have an idea for implementing stabilisation into this system) casualties and fighting.

On another note, what are everyone's thoughts on adding body armour? Now that we can select our gear we may even be able to take it on and off (saw a screeny of selectable ammo vests).

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

Changes made to first post, these changes will force players to stay by fallen comrades to make sure they stay stabilised unless they want their friend to die:

Treatment:

First aid kits - carried by soldiers used to temperailly stop bleeding.

Morphine - useable by everyone, carried by medics, negates pain effects.

Medkits - upgraded first aid kits carried and used only by medics, permanently stops bleeding and replenish 50% of blood meter.

Field Hospitals - Same as medkits only heals arms and legs as well and refills 100% of blood meter. Field hospitals, MEDEVAC choppers and ambulances can all do this.

[5LEvEN 11]

The medical system in AA3 is FAR from being too complex or tedious in my honest opinion... The only difficult part of it is memorizing what you need for the indicated symptom, which is VERY EASY to do. If you are unwilling to spend five minutes memorizing something like the medical treatment for a wounded soldier in AA3, then I have no idea how you even manage to play arma with all of the waiting for combat... Here's what you do, print out a sheet of paper with the necessary info on it, and while your moving towards your objective look down and memorize things on it every now and then... You will maintain situational awareness, but also memorize what to do... See problem solved...

[Tom1 10]

I don't think you understood what I tried to say...

I really like the idea of a more realistic system like aa3, and it is far from being too complex for me.

What I was saying is that it will be very difficult to work on a module with AA3 style wounds and treatment and work on vanilla with 1 or 2 shot kills and almost no medic involvement.

This is due to AI, it would be extremely tedious to make two seperate systems each with different AI and get the game working to the same quality.

I am all for a really realistic system, but this is much more likely to happen with mods, and therefore I am making a doable suggestion for BIS because it is a lot more likely to be taken up.

Beleive me though, if arma 3 had the medic system of AA3 I would be more than happy :)

[rye1 21]

Don't worry Tom, you won't please all people. The same could be said about any system.

[5LEvEN 11]

Tom1 I wasn't replying to your post... At best I was replying to DMarkwick's post, but even then I wasn't really... I was making a statement...

BTW DMarkwick I would be MUCH more willing to play as medic in Arma 3 just by adding this system, I think others would too...