Number of rounds to drop target ?

[Beagle 684]

Sooo many people don't realise this and often ask me why I'm firing at the enemy in bursts that might not necessarily kill them.

I get laughter when I tell them it's for suppression :(

There are a lot of features that player don't understand or know just becauise the documention is missing or the feature is to subtle... like A.I. making full use of support units not grouped to them or squad to squad target information.

[maturin 12]

Suppression is only marginally effective against AI. You can suppress their accuracy and fire rate, but not their movement.

And as I understand it, shots over their heads don't count. To achieve suppression effects, your rounds have to land within a meter or so and impact the ground or a nearby object. Otherwise no dice. Even a burst of 30mm HE won't get them concerned if it explodes farther away.

[Ollie1983 10]

Do we really want a game where a single bullet striking anywhere, can take out of the fight?

[styxx42 0]

I find that if you wait after putting a 7.62 into an Opfor they do go down1 or 2 seconds later.

I have even shot one in the leg at 200 meters on purpose and had my buddies watch and the opfors do go down.(ACE) Some times they do get back up later(that is cool and scary all at once)

I also find that my trigger happy buddies will put 5 rounds into an OpFp before they tumble. Not all the time but often enough screaming WTF.

I reply H"e is dead he just doesn't know it yet."

I have taken to telling my mates, WAIT and WATCH. Some times they even take a few steps then go down. Horrible in it's realism. But it is a game so I am loving it.

I do prefer the bigger caliber rounds.

3 center mass should be a sure kill with 5.56 at 200 meters.

Could also be ACE because that is all we play with. Either way, LOVE IT.

[max power 21]

It is definitely an ACE feature.

[Steakslim 1]

But i like it this way, i think that's realistic... the 5.56 is a shit of caliber and do few damage to the body even on vital parts.

While I'm not it's biggest fan, I don't think you give it enough credit. For an intermediary round, it does some horrible shit to your body when it hits you. Fragmentation, upsetting, multiple wound channels. Only problem is getting it to do any of that within the first few inches of penetration out of a shorter barrel, which apparently the m855 ammunition has difficulty doing at times, especially out of carbine length rifles. Other types of 5.56 ammo have proven superior, but the military acquisition is slow on bringing anything new. With that said, I'm with the crowd that thinks they should ditch it for 6.5/6.8.

[Beagle 684]

Thats funny if you consider that 6.5mm caliber is common for long range and precision for like 100 Years now. My private 6.5x55 rifle is from 1942.

Due to Afghanistan the german army reintroduced the G3 rifle as kind of Battle Rifle. Thanks god the army had them still in stock as it was not abandoned as primary assault rifle before 1998.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Beagle

[no use for a name 0]

I wonder if it's not necessarily the killing power of bullets @ range, but more the effects/wounds from them...i.e. Even if the bullet doesn't penetrate, people who get shot with small caliber weapons w/ body armor still feel the force from it and are stunned/immobile for a few seconds.

In game there's no distinct reaction to the bullet (knock-back, stunned, pain, profuse bleeding, etc.); and since there's nothing like that in Arma then maybe even tho we're doing damage we just don't see the effects. I really wish they would use better animation systems (i.e. ragdoll) just for this. No, I don't want 'gibs' and 'guts'; I just want to know that when I shoot a guy in the torso at 300m+ I can see SOME kind of reaction to let me know, and that they're not just going to keep running at full speed!

Edited March 18, 2011 by No Use For A Name

[ArmAriffic 10]

if you want to kill people easier then turn up the difficulty, BUT you will die just as easy

[cartier90 0]

its O/T but a great vid - they almost melt !

Ugly ballistic gel goings on - temporary cavity - yikes !

[pooroldspike 129]

5.56mm is only .22 inch, so i often wonder how Brit/US troops feel about going into action with a little .22 rifle?

By contrast the AK-47 fires bigger 7.62mm rounds which hit like a cannon.

PS- there are quite a few AK-47 vids on youtube, here's a shot of a penetration test between a NATO 5.56mm round (left) and an AK-47 7.62mm round (right) fired into cinder blocks, the 5.56 stops, but the AK wins hands down by blowing the block apart and punching clean through.

But accuracy-wise, the 5.56mm is better, so it all comes down to what people prefer, hitting power or accuracy.

Personally I'd take the AK because it can punch through cover and get the bad guy behind it.

VID-

Edited March 18, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[SteveJA 12]

I imagine quite good, knowing that thier kit could weigh more.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i insist that if the AIs could be incapacitated the number of shots to put 'em off the game will decrease. As they can't be incapacitated... they fire until the last second, they don't have blood losts or anything like that; so... as they don't fall incap... you need more shots to get ridd of 'em because your only way of get rid of 'em is kill 'em.

I think that the we should be able of incapacitate the AIs, and also in MP; there should be a Game's Logic on every mission that allow us to call for support and take the incap NME AIs into custody, after apply some 1St aid to 'em on the field until the Med-Evac comes to take 'em to our FOB or to our LST. Let's C ya

Edited March 20, 2011 by wipman

[wipman 1]

Hi, about this thing of incapacitate the AIs... in case of don't have a MED-EVAC for 'em (by air, land or sea) then after disarm 'em, patch 'em up and put 'em to walk, some units should form their personal guard team, staying back from the fight, forming their own team that follow the T.Leader from a "safe distance" as the Team Yellow or something; adopting their own combat formation depending on what's going on arround this team until that we take 'em to the next allied point where drop 'em for custody, interrogation and medical threatment. Let's C ya

[kireta21 13]

5.56mm is only .22 inch, so i often wonder how Brit/US troops feel about going into action with a little .22 rifle?

By contrast the AK-47 fires bigger 7.62mm rounds which hit like a cannon.

But flesh =/= cinder. 7.62 will work better against body armor, but when it comes to soft human body there's no big difference.

http://img846.imageshack.us/i/1198563676349.jpg/

Though it's worth notice M855 likely won't fragment under ~2600ft/s. Which is why fragmentation occur usually at short ranges, especially with short barrel weapons like M4.

But that's fine by me. IRL you don't need to kill enemy at medium or long ranges, injuring him is usually enough. He's out of action anyway.

At close range when you need to put him out immiedately, and you can't really coun't on pain factor (as he's pumped full of adrenaline or/and drugs) bullet fragmentation is more than handy.

Apparently Chinese Vietnam-era 7.62mm AK bullet could fragmentate as well thanks to crappy quality, though when fired it could also fly wherever it felt to, for same reason :).

Edited March 20, 2011 by boota

[pooroldspike 129]

I'm no firearms expert, but surely the basic laws of physics dictate that a small 5.56 is bound to decelerate faster due to air drag and therefore be ineffective at longer ranges, whereas a bigger 7.62 decelerates slower and has a greater effective range?

Likewise, if an enemy is hiding behind a wooden fence, surely a 5.56 would lose most of its kinetic energy penetrating the fence and barely scratch the guy behind it, whereas a 7.62 would punch through and hurt him badly?

[kireta21 13]

Of course, as beign lighter, 5.56mm loose power quicker than 7.62mm. M16 maximum wounding range is ~1100m, AK's ~1500m. Battle rifles and MGs can usually wound/kill above 2500m.

When you fire rifle at enemy at +500m behind cover it's just supresson anyway. MGs and DMRs are doing the actual killing.

Edited March 20, 2011 by boota

[maturin 12]

I'm no firearms expert, but surely the basic laws of physics dictate that a small 5.56 is bound to decelerate faster due to air drag and therefore be ineffective at longer ranges, whereas a bigger 7.62 decelerates slower and has a greater effective range?

Due to air drag? A smaller round has less surface area and is affected by drag less, although its smaller mass makes overcoming drag more difficult. I don't know which of the competing factors would win out.

Given the high trajectory, I think that 7.62 (x39, anyways) decelerates faster and is always going slower. But it's heavy, so even the decreased momentum remains effective.

Edit: At 500 yards, 7.62x39mm has decelerated 1258 f/s while 5.56x45 has decelerated 1600 f/s. Despite this, the 5.56x45 round is still going 573 f/s faster and remains supersonic.

With 7.62x54mm rounds, however, the larger bullet is going faster than the smaller one despite its much lower muzzle velocity.

http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

Edited March 20, 2011 by maturin

[cartier90 0]

I get the impression the 7.62 does a bit more damage in game - anyone know of what damage values they have, not sure where too look ?

[Posta 10]

I get the impression the 7.62 does a bit more damage in game - anyone know of what damage values they have, not sure where too look ?

Yes!

That's why I like bigger guns as m240, m249 and pkp. Fewer hits more deaths.

[Ollie1983 10]

A bullet is not more or less accurate because of its size- it is dependant upon how good the manufacture of the projectile is and that of its case and propellant, also the weapon itself and barrel length and recoil characteristics etc. The AK47 is not inaccurate because of the size of its bullet or case, it is inaccurate because of the length of its gas piston travel and the fact that it is produced very cheaply and some models experience barrel flex during firing.

Likewise lethality and range or penetration characteristics depend on dozens of factors. In the civil market there are many different loadings for a given calibre with many different bullet weights. One can obtain very high performance by using faster bullets even if they are lighter, the advantage of this is lower flight time so it is inherently more accurate, the disadvantage of this is increased chamber pressures, increased wearing out of barrels/rifling and often increased recoil.

The 5.56 Nato round was introduced because it gave the infantryman and his section a lot more rounds to put down for the same weight. It is also meant easier resupply and logistics as the Minimi took the same ammo. The traditional 7.62 Nato round was a mental piece of hardware and could not really be fired at full auto from a standard individual weapon- the SLR was already heavy enough, kicked like a mule and had a limited magazine. Analysis of field reports also indicated that the usual engagement distance in modern combat was 400m or less, hence it was decided it was pointless to equip the soldier with a weapon using the powerful 7.62mm round.

The SA80 and M16/M4 thus provide a flexible, light and very handy weapon which can be used in full auto/burst mode for CQB and in addition both are really accurate and quick to bring to bear as they have nothing like the bulk of the SLR etc.

It is worth noting that the AK47 has a large diameter bullet but the cartridge case is shorter than the comparable 7.62 nato round hence it does not fly as fast and in tandem with the fact the 47 has a shortish barrel you cannot expect a lot from this weapon.

Nato forces also tend to train their men to be proficient shooters in their own right, certainly the US rangers, UK marines and SF would be expected to be much better shots than regular infantry, in fact, I can safely say that some of my friends who are serving soldiers cannot shot for !*%*£!!

[cartier90 0]

What I find quite shocking is the temporay cavity in ballistics gel - even if only for a moment, a rifle round to the torso is too be avoided ! . 7.62 is more satisying to shoot in game - live in UK so anything more dangerous than a peashooter is hard to come by IRL.

Always been envious of Americans who can go into the countryside and plink cans with all sorts of weaponary. Thats freedom !

........

[pooroldspike 129]

Incidentally the games M107 50-cal (12.7mm) sniper rifle usually kills with one shot. I don't think I've ever seen anybody just be wounded, they drop dead as if poleaxed.

[maturin 12]

What I find quite shocking is the temporay cavity in ballistics gel - even if only for a moment

Even if it doesn't really do anything most of the time.