Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters

[Spokesperson 0]

That happens in Yemen and Bahrain too. They killed two in Albania last month. Happens all the time in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan without any problems or accusations of crimes against humanity.

[Baff1 0]

None of the places I get my information from changed the story.

Also from what I've heard it wasn't NATO fire that brought it down but rebel fire. They confused it for a Libyan Air Force Mig-23.

That's what was reported here in conclusion... but early on there was a lot of other suggestions as to what happened.

One of the things that has begun to get reported are the human rights abuses by the rebel side.

The murders, the tortures the disappearance of citizens.

All the usual antics we expect in thise situations.

So much as we want Ghaddaffi out, and I put it to you that given our actions so far we have no other serious option than to try and kill him at this stage...

What we are likely to get in his stead is Ghaddaffi by another name.

And while I truely believe that the French bombing that armoured column saved many lives in Benghasi from essentially some sort of ethnic cleansing... there is still some amount of ethnic cleansing going on in that city, just by the other faction.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------

Update on some UN stats, http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/24633000#video=24639284 And no Jakerod its not an unreliable site. More and more are pulling out from this conflict, but do watch the video. If you have not read about the Syria conflict yet it's the same as Libya, Military forces opened fire on protesters killing up to 4 and 20 injured. Guess we should step into that conflict too right?

While there are certainly many many Americans who would wish to overthrow the Syrian regime, I'm not sure if the Russian naval base there is online.

So just because you want to do something, or believe it is right or just to do something does not mean you are always able to.

Nor does your inability to do what is right in one circumstance, reduce the imperative for you to do so when you are able to.

A massacre has been averted. This is a reason for celebration not admonishment.

For example we will hear many stories about how the west intervened in oil rich Libya to save a repressed and endangered population, but will do nothing of the sort to save Palestinians in Gaza from Israeli slaughter.

But Israel has nukes. So we can't save the Palestinians. Not a possibility for us. But this is not a justification for people not to save who they can when they can.

When some one does so they are to be congratulated for their efforts. Rewarded and encouraged with praise bso that they may feel the wish to do so again sometime.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Baff1

[spooky lynx 73]

Let us think about some sort of situation. Imagine, that some group of people (about a couple of thousand persons, maybe more) goes to the streets in any of west-european or US capital (or in some large city) and demands total resignation of all supreme powers (president, ministers etc). After the police tries to disperse meeting, the crowd rushes on policemen, takes their weapons, goes to burn police stations, courts, authorities, tries to abandon army warehouses. What authorities will do with this people, if they aren't going to stop anyhow?

[Beagle 684]

Gaddafi’s immediate response to protests in his country, including the aerial strafing of unarmed protesters, constituted crimes against humanity. The situation, however, from an international law point of view, became hazier when the protesters took up arms. I will assume that the situation in Libya in the last few weeks has constituted “civil warâ€. Governments are allowed to fight rebels using military force in a civil war. There is no international right to rebel, even against murderous governments: international law is silent on the issue. There is no breach of the law of armed conflict for Gaddafi to target and kill armed rebels, whether they be soldiers who have defected, or civilians who take direct part in the hostilities. It isn’t even illegal to use planes when the other side lacks them: there is no requirement that the sides in a war be equal

The whole Campaign against Libya is just another illegal action by parts of the NATO. I can only hope that the more resonable european nation will bail out of NATO sooner or later.

[whisper 0]

If only actions were taken also to stop rebels armed actions .... Maybe this would be slightly less disturbing.

The question remains : now we are in this mess, how to get out properly?

[spooky lynx 73]

If only actions were taken also to stop rebels armed actions .... Maybe this would be slightly less disturbing.

The question remains : now we are in this mess, how to get out properly?

How to get out? Well... There are international laws that are covering judging the states which commit agression against other independent states. Sanctions, Haaga international tribunal etc.

[whisper 0]

LOL be serious, plz.

Or I know a certain Putin who would follow the same path :P

[Big Mac 19]

There are international laws that are covering judging the states which commit agression against other independent states. Sanctions, Haaga international tribunal etc

Then maybe Putin should be put on trial for waging war against Georgia. At any rate this operation was sanctioned by the UN so it's about as legal as it gets.

[Spokesperson 0]

Bombing civilians or people protecting civilians, in order to protect civilians is flawed.

They are not concerned about civilians. Civilians are massacred everywhere every day, but in Libya it has not even been confirmed by independent sources. Yet, the country is a target for aggression. There are other motives around.

[whisper 0]

Thank you, Cap'tain Obvious

[celery 8]

There are other motives around.

Oh no!!! :butbut:

That makes helping the rebels 100% evil. The only right thing to do is to watch as Gaddafi does his thing. At least then nobody would be a hypocrite, and the world is saved. For example, Russia would be soooo hypocritical if it was involved because it's got its own rebels in Chechnya!!! xD But fortunately they're not hypocrites, but a morally upstanding nation.

[spooky lynx 73]

Take Putin and judge him, I will not say a single word about it. There are lots of people here, in Russia, who dreams about seeing him in jail:) Unfortunately, Yeltsin, who made the war in Chechnya possible, rests in grave but not in prison.

Then maybe Putin should be put on trial for waging war against Georgia. At any rate this operation was sanctioned by the UN so it's about as legal as it gets.

Agree. But only together with Clinton, Bush Jr, Sacrosy, Blaire and some NATO commanders. I will be happy to see all of them (both our and your guys) in prisons.

[whisper 0]

I see we are all on the same page concerning our point of view on our respective dear leaders :)

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh no!!! :butbut:

That makes helping the rebels 100% evil. The only right thing to do is to watch as Gaddafi does his thing. At least then nobody would be a hypocrite, and the world is saved. For example, Russia would be soooo hypocritical if it was involved because it's got its own rebels in Chechnya!!! xD But fortunately they're not hypocrites, but a morally upstanding nation.

Again, I'm asking, what Obama/Brown/Sarcosy/Merkel would do in the same situation as Quaddafi's one? And what did Brits with those who wanted Nothern Ireland to be free from UK?

[whisper 0]

Well, I can vouch for not putting a whole city, or more than one, under siege.

If the situation goes that far here, I can assure you Sarko won't be in power anymore

[celery 8]

Again, I'm asking, what Obama/Brown/Sarcosy/Merkel would do in the same situation as Quaddafi's one? And what did Brits with those who wanted Nothern Ireland to be free from UK?

And I quote myself:

Oh no!!! :butbut:

That makes helping the rebels 100% evil. The only right thing to do is to watch as Gaddafi does his thing. At least then nobody would be a hypocrite, and the world is saved. For example, Russia would be soooo hypocritical if it was involved because it's got its own rebels in Chechnya!!! xD But fortunately they're not hypocrites, but a morally upstanding nation.

[Big Mac 19]

But only together with Clinton, Bush Jr, Sacrosy, Blaire and some NATO commanders. I will be happy to see all of them (both our and your guys) in prisons.

Why Clinton or Sarcozey (or however you spell his name.)? they were acting on the UN's behalf. What I don't understand is why everyone thinks it's so important to go into libya when this kinda thing has happened before and no one lifted a finger (i.e. chechnya, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, the list goes on.) It's not about protecting civilians it's about nation building.

[Spokesperson 0]

Oh no!!! :butbut:

That makes helping the rebels 100% evil. The only right thing to do is to watch as Gaddafi does his thing. At least then nobody would be a hypocrite, and the world is saved. For example, Russia would be soooo hypocritical if it was involved because it's got its own rebels in Chechnya!!! xD But fortunately they're not hypocrites, but a morally upstanding nation.

That makes western governments liars. There's no evil or good, just different interests.

I support Gadaffi over the rebels, because his kind of politics reflects my opinions to a larger extent.

[whisper 0]

Yeah, bombing civilian planes ftw!!! That's how politics should be handled!!

(/sarcasm, for those who miss it)

Edited March 25, 2011 by whisper

[spooky lynx 73]

Why Clinton or Sarcozey (or however you spell his name.)? they were acting on the UN's behalf. What I don't understand is why everyone thinks it's so important to go into libya when this kinda thing has happened before and no one lifted a finger (i.e. chechnya, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, the list goes on.) It's not about protecting civilians it's about nation building.

Hmm... I don't remember any UN resolution that validated Yugoslavia bombings in 1999. So, where should be those leaders who ordered to bomb Belgrad?

Also I don't remember UN resolution that validated OIF. Do you know any?

BTW, I fully agree that clashes with casualties among civilians happen in many places and in much larger scales than in Libya. But only Quaddafi is blamed... Maybe because he refused to privatise National oil company:rolleyes:

[1in1class 0]

Yeah, bombing civilian planes ftw!!! That's how politics should be handled!!

(/sarcasm, for those who miss it)

Dont know if you been reading up, or following this conflict about how things are going over there, but it's where the rebels are now making camps for suspected mercenaries! There own dam people in your for say. Rebels are an enemy of that state and we are on the wrong side. Look up prison in "Benghazi", im sure it will put up a pretty nice picture for you. Your sarcasm is played way to much:plain: Soon you will see the full tide of this conflict, as UN nations and the US are seeing.

[Big Mac 19]

Hmm... I don't remember any UN resolution that validated Yugoslavia bombings in 1999. So, where should be those leaders who ordered to bomb Belgrad?

Also I don't remember UN resolution that validated OIF. Do you know any?

BTW, I fully agree that clashes with casualties among civilians happen in many places and in much larger scales than in Libya. But only Quaddafi is blamed... Maybe because he refused to privatise National oil company:rolleyes:

I asked about Clinton or Sarcozey, not Bush. Also you're correct there was no UN charter for Operation Allied Force, but unlike Operation Odyssey Dawn(gay name BTW) it was because there was a genocide going on and the only countries who came out against were the usual suspects which happen to include Russia and China. You're quick to condemn NATO and more specifically the US, but when it comes to facing the facts that Russia has been twice as brutal and indiscriminate when it bombs or invades a country you don't want to hear it.

Also to everyone who is in support of this operation in Lybia maybe we should invade Syria. Troops there just opened fire on protesters...

Edited March 25, 2011 by Big Mac

[STALKERGB 6]

Yeah the use of the term "Rebels" is a bit of a cop out for the people writing about them. I was speaking to Stephen Cole (Al Jazeera English presenter) and he was saying that they are being very delicate in what they call anyone fighting Gaddafi, calling them rebels, or freedom fighters, or terrorists, each labels them as being good or bad or that Al jazeera has taken sides. Sticking with Anti-Government Fighters seems to be the "best" term for them if you ask me.

@Big Mac, I think social networking and social media has helped a lot with Libya, whereas for conflicts in the past they have been less prevalent or non-existent. At least being able to see "first hand" views of the situation makes other countries stand up and take notice.

Also to everyone who is in support of this operation in Lybia maybe we should invade Syria. Troops there just opened fire on protesters...

The situation is always gonna be slightly different in each country, I'm sure it's being watched closely.

Although I think "technically" the UN can't get involved with internal affairs such as all these in the Middle East. Might be wrong there, just vaguely remember that from when I did some work with them.

[Big Mac 19]

The situation is always gonna be slightly different in each country, I'm sure it's being watched closely.

Although I think "technically" the UN can't get involved with internal affairs such as all these in the Middle East. Might be wrong there, just vaguely remember that from when I did some work with them.

Well I don't see how it's any different. Obama said he's in on the whole Libya ordeal to protect civilians (nevermind the fact we're in deep in one war and just pulling out of another and we have serious unemployment problem and the fact they're not even Americans...)

I didn't see him bombing Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, or Syria, but he and everyone else sure were quick to bomb Libya when honestly there are worst tyrants in Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Either it's about oil or he's trying to show the UN America can be a team player neither of which is acceptable when we have serious problems at home and when this war is not an American problem so there for we shouldn't put our servicemen at risk..

Edited March 25, 2011 by Big Mac

[whisper 0]

Dont know if you been reading up, or following this conflict about how things are going over there, but it's where the rebels are now making camps for suspected mercenaries! There own dam people in your for say. Rebels are an enemy of that state and we are on the wrong side. Look up prison in "Benghazi", im sure it will put up a pretty nice picture for you. Your sarcasm is played way to much:plain: Soon you will see the full tide of this conflict, as UN nations and the US are seeing.

FFS

Rebels doing wrong doesn't mean suddenly Gaddhafi is an angel and does everything right.

I support Gadaffi over the rebels, because his kind of politics reflects my opinions to a larger extent.

You know what this means? It means "State terrorism is a valid politic". It means "bombing civilians via terrorism is a valid politic".

Current Gaddhafi ennemies doing wrong do not validate Gaddhafi wrong-doings. How hard is that to understand?