Improvements I believe a decent number wants

[concurssi 11]

Nice inb4, man :D

But if everyone can do it, won't that just result in the Halo Forge problem of quartzillions of crappy maps that no one put any effort into?

[b00tsy 28]

Bootsy, that does look beautiful for island creation. I doubt you would get much support from this BIS forum community but I will agree, it makes island making so much more simple.

Now be prepared to get punched in the sack with these points ppl will throw at you:

1) road generator

2) vegetation generator

3) ability to import sat imagery

and probably much more I don't know.....

I already feel the hate coming to you lol, I am just warning.

I am not saying that BIS needs to copy the editor, but it does give an idea of how it could be done.

As for satmaps, I would be content to be able to use 4 different base textures that you can blend in the editor where every layer stands for a certain terrain height. So if you create a hill a rocky texture will be visible and for ground level a more sandy texture. I do not need satellite images to create a virtual surrounding and it's not needed if you simply can create a landscape in realtime.

People can hate all they want, I have thick skin :)

The way the editor software works now you basically need the skills of the BIS devs... I assume they use the same tools. You can't expect the gamer to use editors that needs professional level skills to create something. It already took me many many hours to get the hang of the basic scripting so that I could finally create some missions. I am not looking forward to do a long study on the map editor, I have more things to do in life you know :)

[[frl]myke 14]

@B00tsy

i wonder how long it would take to create a map of the size of Chernarus using such an editor. The versatility of the RV3 Engine has it's prize, that is things aren't that easy to do.

About the swimming feature. 95% of the units in ArmA 2 are regular soldiers. I was/am regular soldier in swiss army and i know, if i ever felt into water with my regular combat loadout, i would get out of water unarmed like it is ingame.

It is not only the gun and "some" magazines, soldiers carry a lot more around. Gas mask, personal first aid stuff, water bottles, grenades and and and. So a regular soldier has easily 40+kg of equipment and i doubt that swimming is an option this way.

[Ironman13 13]

Myke if a soldier is going for a swim obviously they wont be packing 40+kg. I have never seen videos of guys swimming with a ruck sack attached to em.

Why is everyone taking this swimming thing to the Nth degree like I am expecting unrealistic things to occur? A soldier carrying what he needs for a single mission wouldn't require 40+kg of gears if they know they are doing a swimming insertion.

If they have to swim to be extracted they definitely will drop gear and probably disable it somehow.

I am not some idiot rambling on. I have suggested improvement that can be fulfilled within the constraints of reason.

I do not want to hear another post about a heavy ass load on an infantry swimmer and how that is unrealistic. I never claimed that is what I wanted to see. If BIS makes it that way then fine by me though, there would probably be a way to manipulate it.

[concurssi 11]

:D

I'm sure that 2 weeks from now there's gonna be a mod that allows you to hold onto certain items when you drop into the water.

[b00tsy 28]

Myke;1835042']@B00tsy

i wonder how long it would take to create a map of the size of Chernarus using such an editor. The versatility of the RV3 Engine has it's prize' date=' that is things aren't that easy to do.[/quote']

It probably would take just a fraction of the time it takes to create such a large map as Chernarus or Takistan. The advantage of such a real time map editor is not only that it will be easy to use for everyone, but that it is also much more intuitive. This way you can create a map like if you are creating a painting, creating immediately with the inspiration you have at that moment, instant result.

I think BIS might be suprised of what the non techie people of the community can do if they provide easy and intuitive tools to create the content. Plenty of creative people with great ideas out there, but blocked out by the high learning curve of the editors where you almost need a professional background to work with it.

[Ironman13 13]

intuitive tools require the coders to be intuitive first.

[mosh 0]

:D

I'm sure that 2 weeks from now there's gonna be a mod that allows you to hold onto certain items when you drop into the water.

There's 2 already that I know of. But I don't use them, I know if I was forced to swim with 50 lb of gear I'd be dropping shit too.

[concurssi 11]

There's 2 already that I know of. But I don't use them, I know if I was forced to swim with 50 lb of gear I'd be dropping shit too.

But would you drop everything seems to be the point here.

[maddogx 13]

intuitive tools require the coders to be intuitive first.

Subtlety? Not so much. Trolling is an art that needs to be mastered.

[Ironman13 13]

I am not being subtle about anything. It is just a fact. I think the coders that are part of BIS can be very intuitive and creative. Whether they exercise it is another matter. I am not even gonna go there because I am pretty dumb on the coding side of things. So, no I am really not trolling. I was just saying that coders play a part in an artist's creation. The artist can only use the tools after they are made. So both the artist and coder are equally important. Having tools with no artists is rather silly.

[[frl]myke 14]

I do not want to hear another post about a heavy ass load on an infantry swimmer and how that is unrealistic. I never claimed that is what I wanted to see. If BIS makes it that way then fine by me though, there would probably be a way to manipulate it.

Not?

We should be able to swim in water without losing anything. Soldiers in real life are taught how to do this with all their gear.

@Booty

with all due respect but i think if we speak about a map of the size of chernarus, importing a heightmap is much faster done than drawing the whole topography. For sure it needs it needs finetuning afterwards in both systems.

So i really guess, the actual system is faster for the mapsizes it is meant to be used.

Although i agree with you that with such a editor almost everyone could easily make islands....but of what quality.

For me, a good map has a lot of details where you literally can feel the addiction the creator has put in. It is all in the tiny neat details that bring a island to life.

So i agree, with such a "easy-to-use" world tool, it would be easy...and probably we would get flooded with hundreds of "abzolute-f***intastic-ubercool" Islands in no-time.

Now really speaking for myself, i prefer to have fewer islandmaker but there i know, there are people working that love to do this, they put heartblood into theyr projects.

Making outstanding work requires addiction, blood, sweat and tears. If you're not willing to go that hard way...well then, move on, theres nothing to see here.

I prefer having people doing islands because they have the skills to, not only because they have the tools.

[katipo66 94]

Fair point maybe going from other games usermade maps as a reference, and weve been lucky to have so many talented map makers in the community, but an easy to use world tool would allow for a lot more variation and expression and give access to even more creative minds that may otherwise be restricted by the huge learning curve, i dont think its just a case of 'not willing to go the hard way'.

And in saying that im not wishing/wanting for better tools, just saying...

Cos i sucked at Visitor :p

[JdB 151]

The 400+ voters I keep referring to said make an expansion instead of DLC.

Exactly. They would rather have an expansion than a number of DLCs. But that doesn't mean that they don't appreciate DLC and skip on purchasing when it comes out. For your argument of "400+" supporters on the subject of DLC to be correct, the poll would have needed an additional option, something like:

"Please no more DLC, I think it's a waste of time"

Right now, that 400+ vote poll option tells us that people would really like to see an expansion, not that they don't want BIS to continue producing DLC if they decide not to do an expansion, that's just what some people might be misinterpreting it for.

And if there is to be an expansion to ArmA2, it is already in the works, OA was already being worked on before the release of ArmA2 as well. Completely separate from patch development and DLC production as well as other games BIS is developing. DLC must be substantially funding the support that ArmA2 and OA are getting.

[Callsign 128]

@Myke - I think you might be missing the point, just because the tools are hard to master doesn't mean that the people that use them produce quality material, more merely that they have the time to devote to their projects, there are still badly made islands that were made using visitor.

I think the way to import heightmaps is fine at the mo, it just needs some ironing out of bugs etc, but the FarCry editor placement would be so much more hands on. I think I would prefer quantity of maps over specific quality. I would produce quality work regardless of how hard it was to learn to use the tools (I just lack the time to do either).

@Ironman, I think this thread is a little redundant, essentially this is just another suggestion thread, nothing more. Continuing to argue is not making anyone's points anymore valid and it certainly is wasting BI's time.

[Ironman13 13]

wow JdB, you really should have read the poll options. "Please no more DLC, work on a full expansion instead" for me and anyone else with a minute amount of sense, that means NO MORE DLC. I can't believe you would post about something you didn't even read.

@Myke: within reason Myke, unless you consider me to be a complete nut job. The point was losing NV, Rifle and mags, is completely silly. There is no way a rifleman can't swim with the standard gear that they begin with (in the game). It does not weigh 40+kg, get real. Most don't even have a rucksack on to carry the load you suggested.

@Callsign: I agree many islands are of poor quality right now.

Also about the island editor thing. How many missions actually use the whole of Chernarus/Takistan/Zargabad/ or even dinky Utes? Most missions take place in probably a 2km^2 area, if that. To be able to make a custom mission space that quickly would be amazing. I believe BIS already has a tool to do just this in VBS2, however I don't have the game/sim so I am only slightly confident in that claim from what videos I have seen.

If you ask any mission maker if they could have a tool to generate a small mission area, would they use it? Most probably wouldn't put up with the hassle, but the people that are constantly pumping out those quality missions might love the idea.

Edited January 16, 2011 by {GSF} Ironman

[ProfTournesol 956]

wow JdB, you really should have read the poll options. "Please no more DLC, work on a full expansion instead" for me and anyone else with a minute amount of sense, that means NO MORE DLC. I can't believe you would post about something you didn't even read.

You're kidding, right ? If you're talking about this poll, "They should stop releasing DLC content and make a DVD expansion. 36.5% 769 voters" doesn't mean BI should concentrate on correcting game bugs BUT that they should make new releases ON DVD and not through the DLC process. The only thing you could read between the lines is those voters people don't like to pay and download small releases but prefer buying big releases (like OA) on DVD.

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

I think it is this poll

but I don't see how the "fix things first" comes in.

I only see voters prefer expansions over DLC's

[b00tsy 28]

Myke;1835338']

@Booty

with all due respect but i think if we speak about a map of the size of chernarus' date=' importing a heightmap is much faster done than drawing the whole topography. For sure it needs it needs finetuning afterwards in both systems.

So i really guess, the actual system is faster for the mapsizes it is meant to be used.

Although i agree with you that with such a editor almost everyone could easily make islands....but of what quality.

For me, a good map has a lot of details where you literally can feel the addiction the creator has put in. It is all in the tiny neat details that bring a island to life.

So i agree, with such a "easy-to-use" world tool, it would be easy...and probably we would get flooded with hundreds of "abzolute-f***intastic-ubercool" Islands in no-time.

Now really speaking for myself, i prefer to have fewer islandmaker but there i know, there are people working that love to do this, they put heartblood into theyr projects.

Making outstanding work requires addiction, blood, sweat and tears. If you're not willing to go that hard way...well then, move on, theres nothing to see here.

I prefer having people doing islands because they have the skills to, not only because they have the tools.[/quote']

Well, I can tell ya that I already got stuck with the creation of a height map, easy? Not really. If you do know how to use the tools then I guess it is easy if you like to use a real life satellite map, but a map does not have to be based on real topography, the landscape just needs to have a realistic atmosphere.

With the editor example I linked to in my previous comment you can edit large sections of land and then scale it down and fine tune it, inlcuding roughen land, add cliff/rock sections place houses and create custom towns and even go high detail by placing small objects. As for detail that editor can do it too.

The quality that will be produced by the community I think it will have a positive effect as well. As I said before, the editing result is instant and can also instantly be reverted back again. So you can really go nuts and try out many different things till you created it how you want it.

I have to admit that I only downloaded 1 map so far made by the community (fellujah). I admire the work of the guy that made the map, it looks like a lot of work (with the current editor). The fact that he can work with the editor and create a playable map I think is great.. for him. However, a map like that could have been easily made in a couple of days with the editor I referred to and with much more diversity and detail.

Sometimes I get the feeling on the forum that modders (generally speeking and not pointing fingers) like to have things as difficult as possible (as the tools are now) to not have a large amount of 'competition' from the non techie part of the community. Because then they are not special anymore cos everyone can create a nice map. This is just a perception, I might be all wrong about that.

[Ironman13 13]

I never claimed 400+ people said anything related about my post except STOP THE DLC. And that is made clear in my initial post and the subsequent posts. You can infer whatever you please, don't expect me to answer your unwarranted questions.

Now the vote is nearly at 600 to STOP THE DLC and work on a expansion.

I already told you what I thought about the DLC vs Expansion (Deadlines vs Quality). If you didn't read it, don't expect me to answer it again.

[concurssi 11]

How does DLC vs Expansion equal Deadlines vs Quality?

[Ironman13 13]

not answering questions already answered.

[[frl]myke 14]

It does not weigh 40+kg, get real.

Ok, let's get real:

- M16 including 6 mags = ~6kg

- 6 Handgrenades = ~3kg

- M9 Pistol including ammo = ~3kg

- Helmet =~1.5kg

- protective vest = ~2kg

- Boots = ~2kg (pair)

- clothes = ~5kg

- Gasmask and protective clothes for chemical/biological warfare = ~7kg

- water/food = ~3kg

I am at 32.5kg right now, not included are certain personal stuff (briefcase, cigarettes, whatever), special equipment like NV and/ or binocs. Don't ever tell me how heavy or light a soldiers equipment is, spent enough time to run around with it and believe me, swimming was the last thing i would try with it. I surely would have come out of water with the same equipment as a ArmA 2 soldier.

Since ArmA 2 has it's focus on regular infantry and not any sort of special combat diver units, losing gear is nothing more than realistic and surely doesn't need to be changed.

For the small percentage of missions where swimming insertion could make sense, a working solution surely can be scripted within minutes. So changing the engine and wasting resources on that is pointless.

@B00tsy (sorry, misspelled it last time)

finally we both have points that have to be proved. It's just, the harder something is, the bigger the chance that only those take the time and effort to dive into the matter if they're really interested in it.

Regarding this matter, it is my very own opinion that the tools are good the way they are, regarding how they works. They might get some polish on the user interface and the documantation. As said, my opinion and i do respect yours.

Edited January 16, 2011 by [FRL]Myke

[b00tsy 28]

Myke;1835627']

@B00tsy (sorry' date=' misspelled it last time)

finally we both have points that have to be proved. It's just, the harder something is, the bigger the chance that only those take the time and effort to dive into the matter if they're really interested in it.

Regarding this matter, it is my very own opinion that the tools are good the way they are, regarding how they works. They might get some polish on the user interface and the documantation. As said, my opinion and i do respect yours.[/quote']

Hey No problem.

It's more a matter of logic then having to prove it. Time and interest is also not the point, the technical factor is. Some people are technical minded and can bite through the high learning curve, but the majority can't. So therefor a large group of users is basically excluded from this huge selling point of ArmA. It would be in the best interest of BIS to improve the accessibility of the editing tools and increase the popularity of ArmA this way. The editing part of ArmA is advertised by BIS, but the majority can not use it. You simply can't expect that the average person will be able to use the same developer software that the actual BIS developers use. There should be a separate version for the general ArmA users/fans.

I will rest this topic point that was made by the OP now :)

[Ironman13 13]

Right, cuz in stock ArmA2 we have to worry about food, bio/chem protective gear, vest, helmet...

The vest and helmet don't even do anything lol. Maybe if there was functionality with this stuff then you would have a point.

So we are at ~20kg of gear out of your suggested 40. Sustained swimming ( >= 600m, for arguments sake) with ~20kg is probably impossible, and you would have to shed some weight. As for crossing a river such as the one on Zargabad, which is less than 200m should be completely do-able.