Preloaded & Disposable AT Launchers

[Tavish 41]

The AT launchers could be preloaded with a single rocket in your inventory - especially and essentially disposable ones. Or perhaps an ability to load the rocket from your inventory (priming the launcher), freeing up space that could already exist.

For example, the M136 AT4, the single rocket takes up 6 slots (why 6?! is it that big?) but if it was preloaded the 6 inventory slots would obviously be freed up, allowing for more magazines or grenades. It seems stupid that you can carry a MAAWS (a larger, more powerful launcher) with one rocket yet still have 3 slots available.

And the RPG18. Please, BIS, I'm begging you, please make the disposable launchers disposable! It frustrates me that every time I pick one, my inventory is half filled up by a rocket that should not be there!

This bugs me mainly because the weapon is loaded when you select it.

Does anyone else like the idea (old i'm sure) and feel my frustrations?

*EDIT* This idea could also be aimed at other weapons too. And the inventory could match the actual cargo capacity of the soldier depending on what webbing/backbacks he is carrying. another way of looking at it would be if you load yourself as a civilian in the editor and place an ammo crate you would not be able to select a huge loadout (rifle/launcher/pistol) because you're wearing a tailor suit or a t-shirt. I suppose suits do have pockets...;)

Edited December 9, 2010 by Tavish

[AnimalMother92 10]

Been a complaint for quite some time. Several mods exist to handle this, but it would be nice for Vanilla too.

[vilas 478]

mods have disposable rocket launchers

AT4 consuming 6 slots - i agree, it is stupid

[Nutlink 10]

Definitely one of the things that really should be added (along with OA features on ArmA 2 weaponry when using Combined Ops).

[CarlGustaffa 4]

For example, the M136 AT4, the single rocket takes up 6 slots (why 6?! is it that big?) but if it was preloaded the 6 inventory slots would obviously be freed up, allowing for more magazines or grenades. It seems stupid that you can carry a MAAWS (a larger, more powerful launcher) with one rocket yet still have 3 slots available.

Although I don't disagree that true disposables would have been better, having it take up 6 slots forces it into being a true one shot system, as you simply can't carry any more :) Like the real thing (encumbrance), having it take up 6 slots (space) makes it an item you don't want to haul along if you can help it.

Javelin, Draon, MAAWS (and SMAW which I don't use due to it's not updated 2 slot space) are specialist weapons that you typically reserve for key slots, and only those slots, and they are still fairly weak unless they team up with some ammo bearer. The one shot launchers on the other hand, you want to provide in decent number as a backup plan. You don't want a mission to become unsolvable because the right slots aren't taken. But if the rockets were 2 slots like in Arma1, the true AT Teams using the heavies would be out of a job, and you suffer rocket spamming as a result - not good.

[Tavish 41]

The one shot launchers on the other hand, you want to provide in decent number as a backup plan. You don't want a mission to become unsolvable because the right slots aren't taken. But if the rockets were 2 slots like in Arma1, the true AT Teams using the heavies would be out of a job, and you suffer rocket spamming as a result - not good.

I did not suggest they should go back to Arma1 style, 2 slot AT4 rockets. That's obviously a bad idea. I just said 6 is stupid if the more powerful rockets are smaller. 3 or even 4 slots per rocket would be fine.

Heavy AT specialists out of a job? Never! ;)

[nyles 11]

NLAW should also be one-shot disposable.

Difference to the Javelin would be that it doesn't take any ammo slots, but you can only ever carry 1 shot for it, while the Javelin has the compact launch unit be the "weapon" and otherwise uses 6-slot missiles for reloads.

[helo 10]

With that commenly used scripting code, one can make out of every weapon a disposable one-shot-weapon. No need for addons:

oneShotM136 = {

if (currentWeapon player == "M136" && !("M136" in magazines player)) then {

player removeWeapon "M136";

player addMagazine "M136";

player addWeapon "M136";

player selectWeapon "M136";

};

if (currentWeapon player != "M136" && "M136" in magazines player) then { player removeMagazine "M136"; };

};

[max power 21]

I'm thinking about the current implementation and I'm torn about it. On the one hand, I don't think that disposable launchers should count as ammo in your equipment slots because they don't preclude you from wearing ammo pouches. On the other hand, there ought to be some penalty for their weight and bulk.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yeah I use fired eventhandler to achieve the same thing - remove the tube when used. But back in Arma1 this would crash the game, even ACE1 experienced serious issues with their disposable launchers if used by AI and launcher was removed while ammo was alive.

I'm betting that there are always someone who will complain about auto removal as well, since they are not in control. They want to be able to get to cover before weapon is removed etc. Valid request if you ask me, but I don't have a choice; as mission maker, preventing exploits to be possible is the most important thing, because the public in general will use the available possible exploits to the worst possible means you can imagine.

6 slots is ok as long as automatic removal of tube is implemented by default. That allows even the lazy mission makers to make it available, even in great numbers, without having to think twice about it.

Not able to carry enough stash? Unless everyone carries a launcher, there should be someone around with a backpack. Ask for help to carry your stuff. And do carry extra mags yourself when you have a backpack. Be a team player. And use vehicles to stow additional equipment. Then hide the vehicle ;)

The 6 slot M136 isn't really all that problematic. I wish we had true disposables, true, but as long as we don't, 6 slots works just fine. For me anyways...

@Max Power:

Yeah, the penalty for weight, bulk, encumbrance is what is driving me here. Same reason why I think machinegunners etc should not be able to carry a backpack (which is the case now; backpacks are restricted access). With ACE, you don't have these artificial limitations, but there we have better penalties to counter the effect.

Edited December 7, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[nyles 11]

I'm thinking about the current implementation and I'm torn about it. On the one hand, I don't think that disposable launchers should count as ammo in your equipment slots because they don't preclude you from wearing ammo pouches. On the other hand, there ought to be some penalty for their weight and bulk.

I think that the fact you can't take one while having a MG, heavy sniper or backback is at least already one disadvantage at least.

[Von_Lipwig 10]

Would be very good to have these, definitely! It always kind of bugged me that the M136 takes such a rediculous amount of slots. I'm undecided whether the M136 should be completely confined tot he backpack/launcher slot and have no effect on inventory slots, though, or whether it should just take up less inventory space.

[nyles 11]

The problem with it still taking x ammo slots in addition is that you could then in theory carry multiple missiles, but the launcher would be dropped after the first shot fired. This feels weird to me. To keep it clean, I would suggest not requiring any ammo slot for a one-shot disposable weapon.

[Banderas 0]

Well, rifle/pistol magazine/UGL grenade that is inserted in the weapon is also present in the inventory. So I guess that's why the one-shot launchers still have a magazine occupying half of the magazine slots.

[nyles 11]

Yep, agreed, but the guns are not disposed after use, like the launcher would be.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

You can have ammo that doesn't take up space. I think that is how ACE solves it. But afaik you can't turn a weapon into a used weapon (different weapon class) without scripting, and BIS won't accept this approach (probably for good reasons). And as long as the engine by itself doesn't support it, we're kind of stuck with this method unfortunately.

Also, without the 6 slot ammo, there is no drawbacks from carrying one, and I'd want that too.

[galzohar 31]

ACE solution works great, and so does the script solutions that I don't remember where to get (and don't need because I play with ACE).

On the other hand, there ought to be some penalty for their weight and bulk.

Why? No other items in the game have any penalty for their weight, only their space. If you want weight penalty, you'll have to play with ACE and settle for their sub-optimal solution. At least until BIS make a new engine that allows proper stamina systems.

[dreday 1]

Along with making the LAW-type launchers disposable, it would also be nice to have a provision to carry a couple of them (that's something that no mod currently models, to the best of my knowledge)... There is certainly nothing unrealistic about an infantryman carrying a couple of AT4s or RPG-22s on their back.

Peace,

DreDay

[Tavish 41]

I too, am a fan of ACE and all the great scripts that handle a number of the games issues. But i think it's about time it was in the game as if it was there from the start.

I agree with carrying an extra disposable (maybe only LAW and RPG18/RPG22).

I also think this idea could also be aimed at other weapons too. The inventory could match the actual cargo capacity of the soldier depending on what webbing/backbacks they're carrying. Another way to look at it would be to load yourself as a civilian in the editor and choose gear at an ammo crate, you would not be able to select a huge loadout (rifle/launcher/pistol) because you're wearing a tailored suit, a t-shirt or a labcoat. I suppose they do have pockets...:rolleyes:

This could perhaps lead to proper side-arm placement on the leg and ditto with the mags in the leg magazine pouch. I guess we'll get these luxuries when we get body armour etc..... the far off, distant future i suppose.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Tavish

[CarlGustaffa 4]

There is certainly nothing unrealistic about an infantryman carrying a couple of AT4s or RPG-22s on their back.

And yet I haven't been able to find a single image where this is done. In fact, where applicable, they are stowed in vehicles if possible instead of constantly being carried, but players are too lazy for this. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that if allowed it will become the standard - which it is not in real life. You may be able to carry two, or even three. What happens to normal rifle aiming? Aiming on the move? Endurance? Jumping and rolling capability? Sitting in a vehicle? Or, piloting a plane with two or three M136 strapped around you? :p

Keep possibilities and impossibilities at a balanced level. If all possibilities were implemented we'd end up with a ridiculous game where these things were exploited badly. In real life there are situations where you know what you have can't cope with what you're facing, and you're only option is to advance in the other direction (retreat :)), awaiting forces that can handle it. This doesn't seem to be the case in gaming.

[nyles 11]

Finnish Army often has AT soldiers equipped with two LAWs, but those are way smaller than for example a NLAW or AT4.

In the interest of keeping the system clean and simple and perhaps even based on the current inventory, I would agree with CarlGustaffa that it's fine to have such restrictions.

[max power 21]

Why? No other items in the game have any penalty for their weight, only their space. If you want weight penalty, you'll have to play with ACE and settle for their sub-optimal solution. At least until BIS make a new engine that allows proper stamina systems.

Why? Because the issue is weight and not space when you're slinging something over your shoulder.

[galzohar 31]

Actually it's a lot more than just weight (and space is actually a small but not insignificant factor too).

It's not that I don't want the realism, but basically you say "to get AT launchers to work realistically in terms of advantage vs disadvantage of carrying them we need them to have proper weight/bulk". Well guess what, that can be said about any other equipment item in the game. I really wish BIS would do something that would make a proper stamina/bulk system possible (or even make it themselves while they're at it), but seeing the OFP->Arma->Arma 2 process, it's 99.9% simply not going to happen. Soldier movement speed is, as far as I understand, completely hard-coded, and other things aren't that easy to tinker with either. That's why we have the so-much-hated ACE system - Simply nothing better that actually make sense can be done.

[max power 21]

Actually it's a lot more than just weight (and space is actually a small but not insignificant factor too).

It's not that I don't want the realism, but basically you say "to get AT launchers to work realistically in terms of advantage vs disadvantage of carrying them we need them to have proper weight/bulk". Well guess what, that can be said about any other equipment item in the game. I really wish BIS would do something that would make a proper stamina/bulk system possible (or even make it themselves while they're at it), but seeing the OFP->Arma->Arma 2 process, it's 99.9% simply not going to happen. Soldier movement speed is, as far as I understand, completely hard-coded, and other things aren't that easy to tinker with either. That's why we have the so-much-hated ACE system - Simply nothing better that actually make sense can be done.

BIS already have a slot for over the shoulder slings and backpacks. That would suffice for the bulk system. What's missing is some kind way to show that you can carry an at-4 without it affecting the number of grenades you can carry. What your crystal ball gazing reveals is not at issue here.

I'm not making an addon request. The current system makes 1 at4 round take up 8 slots because the designers don't want the players taking a bunch of at4s and reloading the weapon. In reality, the weapon should take up only the shoulder weapon slot. Carrying additional heavy equipment should be prohibited in some other way in my opinion.

[galzohar 31]

I agree that it should only take the shoulder slot, don't get me wrong, I was actually bringing up the "starting to talk about weight is pointless because of how the rest of the game works" as an argument in favor of disposable launchers, not against it.