Tank "dead ahead" and other stupidity.

[Otterbear 10]

OK, So I'm driving an M1A1 tank with full complement of crew...A tank shows up 100 meters to my front...one of my guys shouts out "tank ,12:00 med range"...what does my gunner do?...you guessed it...continue to scan the horizon for something better to shoot at.:eek: SERIOUSLY?:confused:

I'm I missing something?

Why will they NEVER shoot at targets directly in their sights?

I watch troops run around 50-100 meters in front of my tank all day...I think some of them are laughing at me.

Honestly though, it really doesn't matter what vehicle I'm in...If I don't punch the 17 keystroke combination to shoot the dag-on enemy myself, I'm as good as dead... it hardly EVER happens that THEY do.

To be more precise...they will shoot at every enemy right up to the point that the target just happens to have the weaponry to be able to turn your vehicle into Swiss cheese! That's when they come down with a case of "I don't give a crap" or something.

I bought this game because everybody was raving about how good it is....I think maybe they were thinking of how good it could BE!

From a single player perspective...Its a whole lot of work...for very iffy results.:(

[st_dux 26]

Welcome to wonderfully counter-intuitive world of ArmA. The general rule of thumb is this: If it seems reasonable, that's probably not how it works.

In your particular case, the gunner isn't firing because you didn't tell him to fire. While gunners will automatically use the coax to shoot at infantry targets, they will not fire the main gun without explicit permission from the commander. In order to tell him to fire, you need to first Ctrl+Right Click on the desired target. Once the gunner has aimed properly, hold Ctrl and Left Click anywhere; this will instruct the gunner to fire on the assigned target.

Could this be any less intuitive? Probably not. But that's how it works.

[twisted 127]

Welcome to wonderfully counter-intuitive world of ArmA. The general rule of thumb is this: If it seems reasonable, that's probably not how it works.

In your particular case, the gunner isn't firing because you didn't tell him to fire. While gunners will automatically use the coax to shoot at infantry targets, they will not fire the main gun without explicit permission from the commander. In order to tell him to fire, you need to first Ctrl+Right Click on the desired target. Once the gunner has aimed properly, hold Ctrl and Left Click anywhere; this will instruct the gunner to fire on the assigned target.

Could this be any less intuitive? Probably not. But that's how it works.

as far as i remember I just command them to engage or fire at will? select the unit number, then 3 (fire mode or something like that) then 4 (engage). quite quick. but i agree more reactive AI is really needed.

[maturin 12]

matter what vehicle I'm in...If I don't punch the 17 keystroke combination to shoot the dag-on enemy myself, I'm as good as dead... it hardly EVER happens that THEY do.

If your gunner took the initiative to fire the main gun himself, you would be on hear bitching about him wasting all your sabots on jeeps.

The key combination is exactly two strokes long. Three if you want to do it more carefully.

Spacebar. Click on enemy.

Or Target Menu, select target, click.

Or map, spacebar, click on enemy.

It's not an elegant process, but it's faster than describing the location of the enemy to a human gunner.

The real problem is when no one in the tank spots an obvious armored threat at close range because vehicle awareness levels suck in this game.

[Tonci87 163]

Here it is how you do it.

First tell all to engage at will, your gunner wil engage Tropers much faster when the coax is equiped. If you see a enemy tank right click on it, when your gunner has turned the turret towards the target press CTRL+left click. He will fire the main gun. Press CTRL+F to select the Coax

[Heatseeker 0]

There are tutorial missions in the game.. just try them, they are actually more fun than the real missions, atleast OA's.

Edit:

The Operation Flashpoint way worked better... left click, right click, boom!

[Big Dawg KS 6]

You should probably try to curb your expectations a bit. One of the many lessons ArmA 2 will teach you is that you can't always have control.

The interface could definately use some reorganizing, but don't expect the game to be forgiving if you slip up even just for a second.

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------

The Operation Flashpoint way worked better... left click, right click, boom!

Yea, but in OFP there wasn't as much you had to do as a tank commander. When you add more features, the interface has to get more complicated.

[max power 21]

Pressing '2' will bring up a target list. Reading from the list, pressing the number associated with your target will cause the gunner to target it. Pressing ctrl+lclick will fire the main gun. You don't even have to be looking in the same direction. This technique allows you to command as fast as the AI does.

[-=seany=- 5]

The Operation Flashpoint way worked better... left click, right click, boom!

+1 x1000

The problem the op describes is exactly why they had a nice intuitive system in OFP. With the post OFP system of tank commanding you cant rely on the AI in the heat of battle and its incredibly clunky. Why they changed it for Arma1 and subsequent releases is anyone's guess.

[Otterbear 10]

Thanks all for the feedback;

I honestly expected to get a lot of heat, saying I was an idiot or some such.

However; I was pleasantly surprised to find out that I'm not such an idiot as I had assumed.

If I'm driving a tank and I have to cross a mountain I have two options...

1) Take a road, which allows my gunner to scan for hostiles and engage them. or ...

2) Go through the forest knocking down trees all the way as I haven't yet figured out how to "stow" the gun in the forward or backward position. (this could of course have adverse effects on my main guns usefulness, although I haven't notice a huge amount of damage being done to it yet.)

In my situation in particular; I had decided to take a road over the mountain, and halfway up the hill I hear "Tank 6:00 long range", being on the side of a hill left me with little choice then to keep going, or run around on the side of the hill until he got a lucky shot and killed me. I managed to get to a rather level spot, then began the rather bulky task of trying to DRIVE and SHOOT...I had assumed if I was the driver ...the GUNNER would know HIS JOB, fix the target, and fire when able...but he kept swinging the gun in circles with the enemy rounds landing all over me. I assumed he could see the target, as I could, and you couldn't miss the fireball from his gun. I know this raises all kinds of questions.

1) was the tank level enough to bring your guns to bear on the target?

2) just because I could see the enemy doesn't mean that everybody in the tank can.

ect...

Bottom line; this happens a lot on OPEN terrain...and you get the same result.

Punching the 2 or three key combo while driving and avoiding incoming fire is ridiculous when I have "cleared" all personnel to fire.

Do they(BIS) really expect me to be "Gunner", "Driver", AND "Commander", and such?

If so, I guess I would have to live with it...but it is the lack of consistency that kills it for me...one min they fire at will, the next...when you REALLY need it...they DON'T!

I've spent days designing a rather simple scenario where I just have to go from one end of the map to the other. (the real work was adding the support personnel...which is another gross failure in this game ATM.)

I added ACM and Spec-ops just to have something to do.

But, it really sucks getting 3/4 of the way and having your crew go to lunch on you.

Thanks for all the help.

(I did know about the key combo's, but its hard when your driving to stop,... change to commander mode...., select target.. BOOOM!! You have died!)

Edited November 16, 2010 by Otterbear

[Big Dawg KS 6]

+1 x1000

The problem the op describes is exactly why they had a nice intuitive system in OFP. With the post OFP system of tank commanding you cant rely on the AI in the heat of battle and its incredibly clunky. Why they changed it for Arma1 and subsequent releases is anyone's guess.

Multiple turrets...

[Otterbear 10]

@Big Dog KS -Love the quote about "LEGO's".

I tried to "vote" on your listed issues but didn't see a way too do so.

[Tonci87 163]

Well there is your Problem. The commander is not supposed to drive the Tank!

When you are the commander, then its up to you to choose targets for your gunner, not to drive that tank. If you want to drive, then make a mission in the editor and choose Player as driver for your Tank. Your guys will then engage enemy tanks at their own

[NoRailgunner 0]

Otterbear sometimes you have to look everywhere, try things out till they fit and practice more. As commander you are responsible for the crew and the tank. You may change the key "swap gunner" in controller options to gain a little bit more control over the AI gunner. ;)

hint for beginners: don't order the AI in vehicles to "scan horizon" until you know how to stop them or to look to a certain point/area. Learn step-by-step with only few enemies around.

[wolfbite 8]

I've got ctrl set as my fire vehicle weapon :P

[ffur2007slx2_5 11]

I think armed vehicles can just scan target automatically without extra commanding. I haven't found that stupid behaviour before.

Have you raised your muzzle too high make it not able to aim at target?

[Big Dawg KS 6]

@Big Dog KS -Love the quote about "LEGO's".

I tried to "vote" on your listed issues but didn't see a way too do so.

Credit goes to Armored_Sheep (a BIS dev), and in order to vote on the CIT you need to register at dev-heaven.

On topic, the system for commanding vehicles in ArmA is IMO very well implemented. In terms of being intuitive; well all I can say is that it really depends on the user. I'd classify ArmA's command system as somewhere between intermediate and expert. In this case, OFP veterans will find that while the commanding system has not changed much, the interface has.

The problem came when BIS implemented a new interface level for less experienced players. More often than not, it only gets in the way of users who are used to the old interface; which while left mostly intact hasn't received any of the attention it needs (such as better support for multiple turrets). IMO BIS just needs to reorganize the command interface so that the two levels are less interdependent and so us users can decide which one we want to exclusively use.

[-=seany=- 5]

Multiple turrets...

pretty bad way of going about it. Ruining a major part of the game so we can use something that no one uses.... ( especially when so few vehicles have multiple turrets).

All I know is that since Arma 1 I will avoid having any one but myself in an armoured vehicle, I will be driving, gunning and commanding (unless there are humans). In OFP I use to have a full crew of AI. I always felt they made the change to make the game more "realistic", ironically the way I use armour now is more unrealistic than ever.

Why does multiple turrets mean we cant command the tank from the drivers position while in Tactical view, and use Right click lock, left click fire with that nice intuitive targeting box we use to have? I mean, I really would not care if every turret on the vehicle fired at the same target.

[tj72 0]

The AI gunner really should engage targets once it is directed where to watch or ordered to fire on a listed target.

The gunner has tunnel vision especially if zoomed in so it can get complicated telling it to target something in an unknown direction. As a gunner I would have to zoom out and pan around untill I saw something and often it was an incoming Missle right before impact. But if I am watching the direction Im supposed to, I should be relied on to acquire and shoot appropriately. HE on Infantry and Light Vehicle/Sabot for Heavy Armor/MG for Infantry and Light Vehicle. It takes a moment to switch HE to Sabot so there is some complexity their for an AI to figure out. It has to decide best weapon for the job and also estimate enough time to switch out before lethal enemy fire is expected. The idea of a stressed out gunner not making the right choice can be very likely in the heat of battle.

I know a script could enhance this area. All that is needed is a way to tell the AI to lookat or dotarget a target object or area. Then scan the area for threats and then dotarget and fire weapon based on specific parameters. It gives me a good idea for making a script as I would like to have better AI gunner performance. The hardest part would be giving the commander an interface to direct the gunner in the most flexible and intuitive way.

If you rely on the default AI to do everything you want you will likely be dissapointed. I learned scripting for the exact reason that I wanted to enhance the AI for things just like this. I like to make my own scripts but I could also look for other users scripts that have been made into easy to use example missions but I find having the ability to do it myself means I can aim for exactly what I want.

I could write more about adding scripts but Im not sure if that is an attractive option. I can tell you that a script could do this and could be made very easy to implement from your end so that you dont have to learn how to script from the ground up. Ideally there should be a script for all kinds of enhancements like this that is very easy to set up and use for non scripters. Im not saying its right or wrong that scripts are needed to enhance and fix things, just that its the way it is and this is a way to deal with these issues.

And these things should be scripts and not addons. Addons like this are very unlikely to be used in MP.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

pretty bad way of going about it. Ruining a major part of the game so we can use something that no one uses.... ( especially when so few vehicles have multiple turrets).

Rewind to before ArmA's release. The community would not shut up about support for multiple turrets. While the current implementation of multiple turrets is pretty solid, some aspects of the game (including appropriate scripting commands) are still only catching up (and some are still stuck in the past).

Why does multiple turrets mean we cant command the tank from the drivers position while in Tactical view, and use Right click lock, left click fire with that nice intuitive targeting box we use to have? I mean, I really would not care if every turret on the vehicle fired at the same target.

Because you have to support an arbitrary number of turrets in any arbitrary configuration. Right click lock/left click fire won't work in all cases (or will interfere with weapon functionality). In OFP, the engine could get away with just assuming one turret per vehicle.

In fact, the old OFP scheme is still present in ArmA 2, at least for so called "primary" turrets (ex: try it on the T-34), but for obvious reasons it no longer functions once the commander has his own weapons. Still, in this case, you should be able to restore (at least most of) that functionality by using the "Command xxx" controls. The biggest change that complicates this however was removing the (free-floating) command cursor from the commander. The right-click to lock functionality is still there, but without the cursor you have to put the target in the center of the screen (which can often be troublesome).

Personally, I feel that if BIS just restored the free-floating command cursor and tweaked the controls a bit so that holding down a single key would temporarily give you the old control scheme (disabling your own weapons of course), it'd be a lot more intuitive (if not a perfect solution). Right now there are several different controls such as "Command fire" and "Switch gunner weapon" which, while useful because they don't interfere with your own weapons, are not as direct.

[Otterbear 10]

OK, so I think I've gotten a little bit of this figured out.

First off, I NEVER ride in any vehicle as commander. (for all the obvious reasons)

a.the lag time between my brain, my finger, and my drivers response.

b.The "look around" mode "commander mode" is jerky and unresponsive...and thereby dangerous.

c.Any distraction of say a helicopter or enemy, leaves my driver crashing into whatever is in front of him like a kamikaze.

d.the view changes if your going up or down terrain..so your in constant adjustment mode...jerky and hard to control.

All this may be a result of my newness to the game interface.

I usually enter a vehicle as the driver; allowing me to;

a. quickly find cover,

b. quickly turn to engage - aggressively

c. start and stop a lot quicker.

d. get from point "a" to point "b" in a timely manner without bulldozing everything on the planet.

-------

*Side note:

BIS states ON THE BOX: "The games simulates various aspects of Combat and environment effects from bullet ballistics, Material Penetration,..."

Anybody ever see what happens in "real life" when a 60ton tank hits an outhouse?

----------------------------------------

I have been using the armory for a while, familiarizing myself with the controls. I have noticed that (as the driver), giving ALL the command to "engage" NOT "engage at will" usually results in faster response times from my secondary gunner(s). My main gunner has only fired ONCE on his own in the last 14 hours of play. EDIT: This may if fact have been ME hitting the wrong button.

The first rule of MOBILE combat is "DON'T SIT STILL" Hence the word "MOBILE" in the title. However if I switch to the main gun, to do HIS JOB, the vehicle slows and stops...until I switch too driver/commander and order him to move again. So the only time I can "kill" a mobile target (so far), is if I get extremely lucky and HE stops...allowing me to find cover and fix him in place and attack from a stop...or rolling to a stop. If HE is pursuing me...I have very little choice but to switch to the main gun/ or commander and point at the target and order its destruction or do it myself...leaving me at a dead stop in front him, trying to find him and fire. (which usually does not end well for me.)

Bottom line, If the main gunner is not going to work...just say so. I'll stick to foot patrols until he does. :rolleyes:

As for scripting, I'm still dealing with scripts that I copied directly from here that do not work as advertised. Hopefully in future, I will learn all about this...not quite looking for a new programing language to learn at the moment....just a fun game that does what its supposed to.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Otterbear

[nkenny 1051]

Personally, I feel that if BIS just restored the free-floating command cursor and tweaked the controls a bit so that holding down a single key would temporarily give you the old control scheme (disabling your own weapons of course), it'd be a lot more intuitive (if not a perfect solution). Right now there are several different controls such as "Command fire" and "Switch gunner weapon" which, while useful because they don't interfere with your own weapons, are not as direct.

Not to mention that the existing command functions are hidden in a poorly organized button list a mile long. :P I agree with your assertion. A command 'overlay' when certain buttons are pressed would be hot.

-k

[tj72 0]

There should be context sensitive commands. Its not hard to detect that the player is in a vehicle and to program menu's that are available based on the current position in vehicle. Sometimes drilling down through the menu's takes critical seconds that mean life or death for the tank or who it is covering.

Commander of tank could get an instant menu with relevant commands and be able to actually play the game as a tank commander and not driving and gunning all by himself. You can move and you can shoot by yourself but to be able to do both smoothly takes a crew. The commander makes the decisions that are best in his judgement and the crew should carry out the orders given to them. You cant jump to a driver seat and back up fast enough to avoid an incoming rocket but with a driver you can instantly order REVERSE and duck the hull back into cover or at least increase your odds of survival.

Again, the gunner should be fast and effective if he is skilled enough and is looking in the right direction based on the tactical parameters. If your tank is on one side of a valley and the tank is on a downgrade angle, there should not be any issue with the gunner looking for and shooting at targets both down in the valley and up higher on the opposite ridge. If I put myself in the gunners seat and I was commanded to look forward, I would scan up and down in that situation simply because its the sensible thing to do. AI has no look up and down command so all the commander can do is set a watch direction (and its not hull relative direction but should be). If I'm driving forward and have targets on the left of the tank I should have an aim left command instead of checking compass for the current global direction.

I think BIS or community can just rework or add some things a small amount and we could unlock some serious gameplay potential. Ive been meaning to make a tank specific mission like this and if it had all kinds of enhancements for commander such as this it would be really great. Also gunship pilots and door gunners could use this enhancement as well.

"Gunner cover that area/direction or heading."

I want it all.....

[Otterbear 10]

There should be context sensitive commands. Its not hard to detect that the player is in a vehicle and to program menu's that are available based on the current position in vehicle. Sometimes drilling down through the menu's takes critical seconds that mean life or death for the tank or who it is covering.

Commander of tank could get an instant menu with relevant commands and be able to actually play the game as a tank commander and not driving and gunning all by himself. You can move and you can shoot by yourself but to be able to do both smoothly takes a crew. The commander makes the decisions that are best in his judgement and the crew should carry out the orders given to them. You cant jump to a driver seat and back up fast enough to avoid an incoming rocket but with a driver you can instantly order REVERSE and duck the hull back into cover or at least increase your odds of survival.

Again, the gunner should be fast and effective if he is skilled enough and is looking in the right direction based on the tactical parameters. If your tank is on one side of a valley and the tank is on a downgrade angle, there should not be any issue with the gunner looking for and shooting at targets both down in the valley and up higher on the opposite ridge. If I put myself in the gunners seat and I was commanded to look forward, I would scan up and down in that situation simply because its the sensible thing to do. AI has no look up and down command so all the commander can do is set a watch direction (and its not hull relative direction but should be). If I'm driving forward and have targets on the left of the tank I should have an aim left command instead of checking compass for the current global direction.

I think BIS or community can just rework or add some things a small amount and we could unlock some serious gameplay potential. Ive been meaning to make a tank specific mission like this and if it had all kinds of enhancements for commander such as this it would be really great. Also gunship pilots and door gunners could use this enhancement as well.

"Gunner cover that area/direction or heading."

I want it all.....

Thank you!

This is essentially what I've been saying.

Nothing is more nerve-racking then hearing "Enemy tank, 10:00!" and being in the middle of a turn...and watching the compass spinning all over the place...12:00 should be 12:00 at all times or this information is useless, most of the time.

Unless given the order to "scan horizon" the Main gun should stay pointed forward or aft...whatever the proper orientation is.

Should the commander or subordinates spot a target...then and ONLY then should he begin to swing wildly in the direction of the last know location of said target. Trying to navigate the forest with your main gun swinging from side to side is nuts.

Is there an option to stop or better control the 90deg turns these things keep trying to make on me. ONE tap on the left key and I'm facing 90deg's to the left and vice versa.

My main gunner NEVER fires...I have to do it for him. Something is not right about that. (yes, I've tried "engage at will" or "engage"...both have the same effect...nothing. My machine-gunner on the other hand is fairly good at shooting.

The third person camera position is CONSTANTLY bumped around by the terrain...making navigation aggravating in the EXTREME! If it was designed, as mentioned by the developers, to give a more realistic view...staring at the back of my tank going down hill IS NOT A REALISTIC VIEW.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Otterbear

[st_dux 26]

The third person camera position is CONSTANTLY bumped around by the terrain...making navigation aggravating in the EXTREME! If it was designed, as mentioned by the developers, to give a more realistic view...starting at the back of my tank going down hill IS NOT A REALISTIC VIEW.

Third person view isn't realistic anyway.