Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[rksl-rock 1300]

...

It won't stop the theft you're worried about, and the casual theft you refer to is remarkably well handled within the ArmA2 community in any case. I think there are more appropriate options open to you to reduce the chances of the *actual* theft that most worries you: the reselling theft.

Actually it probably would since the 3-4 recent cases of BIS and RKSL products appearing on the likes of Turbosquid were enabled not by DX ripping but by converting an ODOL > MLOD > 3DS. (this is supported by the fact that the selection names are still present in the mesh. Something a DX ripped model doesnt have.)

The 2 guys i caught doing it admitted it. One used moo.exe and the other was the most recent and he said he used T_D's tool.

Edited November 2, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[max power 21]

It's the very principle I don't agree with. It's natural for me to follow the strong belief I have, remember I include all of my own work in this. I regard it as a small payback (in part) to the great modding culture that has worked well for nearly ten years. A hobby for a game is what we're talking about remember, and the community is small enough as it is. Make it possible for valuable learning resources to be locked and the community only gets that much smaller. I fundamentally don't agree with the possibility of community addon encryption, for whatever reason. If that sounds to you like I'm against choice, then all I can say is that this issue is possibly the only time I've ever voted against choice, so I doubt it's a matter of simple obtuseness.

To be clear, I'm looking for good reasons- those being ones arrived at by non-fallacious reasoning (ugly sentence but it works).

"Addon snoopers"? LOL :D by that I guess you mean nearly everybody who ever wished to learn how to mod in OFP/ArmA/ArmA2.

Well, yes. But there is alternate methods, as we have covered.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Max Power

[noubernou 77]

I think ACRE is a great example. I had the idea, another group implemented it, didn't want to continue work on it, and it became the revolutionary mod that it is today. This would not have happened as quickly with out people being open about their work and encouraging sharing and reuse (even if ACRE maybe contains 1 line of code from A2TS).

I think model makers and coders have significant differences in attitude and opinion about the openness of their work and really the two should have no baring on the other.

Coding is about learning new approaches, how to do things better, more efficiently, faster, etc. Model making, while hard, is much more free form, a lot of times there is multiple best ways to do something, which is rarely the case in programming. Code can always be improved and bettered, and often it takes multiple iterations from different people to reach the best result.

Model making is art, coding is... coding. They are not the same process, not even close.

So again, locking down P3D is good, locking down code prevents innovation.

Edited November 2, 2010 by NouberNou

[soul_assassin 1750]

I think ACRE is a great example. I had the idea, another group implemented it, didn't want to continue work on it, and it became the revolutionary mod that it is today. This would not have happened as quickly with out people being open about their work and encouraging sharing and reuse (even if ACRE maybe contains 1 line of code from A2TS).

That's the point, this sharing came from personal will to share and not from inability to lock pbos.

If I can afford a ferarri doesn't necessarily mean I will buy it. I just don't want anyone telling me I can't.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Second try, first one got way too big.

@RKSL-Rock:

"Addon snoopers"? Poking and tinkering is basically how I learned everything I ever learned. Any game (or anything, really) that denies me that possibility I don't touch. I'm sure you have better things to do than constantly answering "how to" forum posts (for the general public to learn from). Ok, checked you out and you seem a lot less elitist attitude (over protective, not helping, "my little secret" etc) than I first expected. Kudos and +++ for that. :)

I don't think anyone here, including us nay-sayers, objects to the model issue, as it is something that can be exploited commercially. But locking up pbo's in general, and allowing everyone to do so, will down the line lead to an over protective community where everybody has their own little secrets they don't want to share. I'm sorry, but I still can't see anything good come out of that, only bad. Continue having a system based a little on trust, where the occasional issue is handled as it should. In real life we have courts and fines. Here we have moderators/crews and lockouts/whatever. The size of the penalty seems to fit the size of the crime. And at least to me, that system seems to work just fine. Also in real life, there is a significant difference on what happens on a personal level (100% own use), or even a limited distribution level (such as for a clan), compared to when you actually go fully public (Armaholic etc) with it.

Usually it's just a forgotten credit. Sometimes it's something that doesn't even belong under copyright protection (knowledge, scope, dubious source material in the first place). And rarely is it about a "work" distributed as own.

I realize you are highly professional, and probably is likely to seek out permissions for every bit of thing you do, so the copyright you claim may be 100% authentic. That's nice. Very nice in fact. Most of us, probably 90% or so, haven't reached that level of professionalism yet. That means we shouldn't not be allowed to hide our addon content behind a lock. How many addons use content from youtube? How many have that written permission I wonder? In fact, how many even bothered to read their terms before putting their use of that material under copyright they do not even possess.

How can anyone justify protecting their work, by allowing hiding theft by the same means? Are your rights more important than their rights?

Again, I'm sure there are several who are as legit as you can humanly achieve wrt permissions, but most haven't reached that level yet, and would most likely be scared off if it was expected. If that level of professionalism was 100% enforced, we wouldn't see many addons either.

@Max Power:

To be clear, I'm looking for good reasons

It allows me to hide theft and claim from something by Mr.X that was released as CC-by-NC-SA (Share Alike). Mr.X can't check my theft, becomes suspicious of misuse, and will never release anything as CC-by-NC-SA again. Are my rights to cover up my theft worth more than Mr.X rights?

But in fact, I never even saw Mr.X addon and everything was fully my own. Mr.X still decides to never utilize that again, and I may end up as laughing stock due to a faulty suspicion.

Without locks, everyone can see that it was a theft. Hell, there might even be left comments about it in there where it came from and no attempts on coverup whatsoever, but done in "good faith". Mr.X might have a nicer attitude towards it, and continue to support CC-by-NC-SA for everyones benefit. Or, Mr.X can verify that "no, that was a completely different approach than mine, even if the results are the same", and continues to support CC-by-NC-SA.

And where do we get when everyone becomes too protective based on suspicions? I don't think anyone believes it would kill the community, but my belief is that it will severely degrade the quality of addons and possibly missions, due to the oncoming protectiveness. Although it was governed by payware and not protection, that very thing happened for flightsim. It caused me to loose interest then (and no, everything was 100% self made or based on official stuff), and it will cause me to loose interest now.

Well, yes. But there is alternate methods, as we have covered.

Which often doesn't work, as we also covered.

@Soul_Assassin:

Is the speed limiter on that Ferrari optional? Optional isn't always a good idea.

[dmarkwick 261]

Question: how would one check on the suspicion that an encrypted model is in fact stolen?

---------- Post added at 02:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 AM ----------

To be clear, I'm looking for good reasons- those being ones arrived at by non-fallacious reasoning

It ain't fallacious simply because you don't agree with it. As far as I - and others - are concerned they are good reasons, it's OK to see the validity of an argument without needing to change your mind y'know :). I don't say that the opposite stance are poor reasons, only that I don't agree with them.

Edited November 2, 2010 by DMarkwick

[Cookieeater 10]

It seems like whats mainly split up here are the modelers for locking and the coders/scripters against locking. I believe that modelers already have their "locked" models in the fact that you can't export from O2, if you don't believe me, here it is:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Oxygen_2_-_Manual#Import_.2F_Export

How people probably stole the models is by a ripper, which works on EVERY DirectX game including ArmA II, so locking it won't do shit because they can just start up the game and capture the scenery being rendered. So basically, when you get to the point where you make the model, release it online, and have somebody view the model in-game, you are at the risk of having your models stolen. In fact, this is nearly how all emulated games and games without modding support get their models ripped and end up on other video game mods.

<Link to ripper tool and video removed>

If you are concerned with your models being uploaded on Turbosquid with the lack of protection even with no export function, locking it won't do shit as they can use a ripper. And if you are so concerned about having your models stolen that you won't decide to make content, YOU SHOULDN'T BE MODDING IN THE FIRST PLACE AS THERE IS NO PROTECTION ONCE YOU HIT UPLOAD.

Edited November 2, 2010 by W0lle

[max power 21]

@Max Power:[...]

The speculative drama aside, the problem you pointed out (which was pointed out before in this thread) is a valid one in my opinion. It is a potential problem that needs some thought in order to rectify.

One possible one is that you can still ask the addon maker to provide the unencrypted files for arbitration by a moderator or whatever currently happens when such a case is brought up without unbinned files.

It ain't fallacious simply because you don't agree with it. As far as I - and others - are concerned they are good reasons, it's OK to see the validity of an argument without needing to change your mind y'know :). I don't say that the opposite stance are poor reasons, only that I don't agree with them.

Appeals to convention are fallacious. I think disallowing a choice because you don't want people to be able to choose is question begging. Those are both fallacious arguments.

[...]

I don't know where to begin here.

I guess firstly, I can't believe you think you're presenting 3dripper dx as if it's new information for any of us. Second of all, showing a video of how to steal is questionable at best. Thirdly, the matter is to reduce theft without any delusion that we will stamp it out completely ie. the locks on your doors. We have been through this last bit a few times so maybe you can stick to reading instead of rewriting the whole thread, thanks.

@Baff1

I didn't realize you had this copyright discussion with RKSL-Rock before. It seems to me like he answered you quite concisely the first time.

[...]

I've been through a few copyright/ip theft cases myself. And the first step was always to establish my ownership of all the IP related to the material. My own experiences have included representations of Airbus, Westland, and EADS products. In all 3 cases there was a clear ruling under copyright law that I was the sole owner of the IP and was not making a claim on anyone's Branding or copyright. There are provisions for it in the Berne convention and in various international copyright treaties going back 50+ years.

The IP laws are amazingly gray at times but they are enough precedents that show rulings about the artist's right to make representations of publically available products. Of course commercially, you cant use someone else's brand names and logos without a license but there is absolutely nothing to stop you making an "artistic representation". Eg Cayota, Sundat etc.

So I am totally confident when I say you are wrong. We own our own models. I have 3 court rulings with my name on it that support that position.

I don't know how this can be said any stronger. RKSL-Rock is a primary source who says he has been through court proceedings where he has established his ownership of the IP present in his renderings of aircraft designs.

[Cookieeater 10]

The speculative drama aside, the problem you pointed out (which was pointed out before in this thread) is a valid one in my opinion. It is a potential problem that needs some thought in order to rectify.

One possible one is that you can still ask the addon maker to provide the unencrypted files for arbitration by a moderator or whatever currently happens when such a case is brought up without unbinned files.

Appeals to convention are fallacious. I think disallowing a choice because you don't want people to be able to choose is question begging. Those are both fallacious arguments.

I don't know where to begin here.

I guess firstly, I can't believe you think you're presenting ************************ dx as if it's new information for any of us. Second of all, showing a video of how to steal is questionable at best. Thirdly, the matter is to reduce theft without any delusion that we will stamp it out completely ie. the locks on your doors. We have been through this last bit a few times so maybe you can stick to reading instead of rewriting the whole thread, thanks.

@Baff1

I didn't realize you had this copyright discussion with RKSL-Rock before. It seems to me like he answered you quite concisely the first time.

I don't know how this can be said any stronger. RKSL-Rock is a primary source who says he has been through court proceedings where he has established his ownership of the IP present in his renderings of aircraft designs.

Could you elaborate on your third point, because the first two are still correct points. Also, people are going to do what they want, be it drinking and smoking under the age of 21, getting drugs, getting illegal firearms, and so much. Laws do pretty little in the real world such as prohibition of alcohol in the United States and currently the Britain handgun ban. Nothing is going to change from the locked PBO other else than the modding community suffering and the people who actually steal the work getting off scot free.

P.S.

People can kick locked doors down too quite easily :p.

Edited November 6, 2010 by W0lle

[suhsjake 1]

If their is a will, their is a way.

I am all for people protecting their hard work and locking files, but you have to come to the realization that people are going to figure out how to get around security. That is why security is a multi-million, if not billion dollar industry that has to constantly evolve and adapt to defeat new threats.

I am also seeing the trend of relying on BIS. Hey BIS why cant you do this or that? Why won't you create a ability to lock files? Why can't we have mlods for A2 or OA? Maybe you should try creating an encryption program and see how long it takes to to get it to work properly. It is something that just doesn't happen over night and takes a lot of capital.

Has BIS created a tool to lock PBOs and such? Yeah they have, but if I where smart, I wouldn't release the same tool to the community that you lock your proprietary information for your games. Once the tool is out and available, it will be easier to reverse engineer.

[Cookieeater 10]

If their is a will, their is a way.

I am all for people protecting their hard work and locking files, but you have to come to the realization that people are going to figure out how to get around security. That is why security is a multi-million, if not billion dollar industry that has to constantly evolve and adapt to defeat new threats.

I am also seeing the trend of relying on BIS. Hey BIS why cant you do this or that? Why won't you create a ability to lock files? Why can't we have mlods for A2 or OA? Maybe you should try creating an encryption program and see how long it takes to to get it to work properly. It is something that just doesn't happen over night and takes a lot of capital.

Has BIS created a tool to lock PBOs and such? Yeah they have, but if I where smart, I wouldn't release the same tool to the community that you lock your proprietary information for your games. Once the tool is out and available, it will be easier to reverse engineer.

There's probably another reason why BIS hasn't released being able to lock PBO's. I wonder why...

[noubernou 77]

How people probably stole the models is by a ripper, which works on EVERY DirectX game including ArmA II, so locking it won't do shit because they can just start up the game and capture the scenery being rendered.

/thread

Does anyone follow DRM for different media?

People will get it, and the hardcore ones are the ones that are out to make a buck, not the casual people, or the people that want to look at code to figure out how to get into this game.

[max power 21]

Could you elaborate on your third point, because the first two are still correct points.

I'm not sure what you mean by points. You can read more complete answers to your arguments by reading the thread. Thanks.

[nuxil 2]

Cookieeater I Suggest you remove that video and the link to the ripper tool from this forum.

most of us here knows about thise ripper tools.

it has no place on a public forum showing user "who" doesnt know about this tools how easly it can be done.

that video and link doesnt help anybody. if they want to learn how to rip models we should not contruibute any information on how its done. let them find out about thise tools on ther own.

altho i understand your intentions was not bad.

Edited November 2, 2010 by nuxil

[Cookieeater 10]

I'm not sure what you mean by points. You can read more complete answers to your arguments by reading the thread. Thanks.

What can you do to protect against model theft? Nothing. I've read the thread, and all you said was to add in copyright protection for models:

Or perhaps if only they have the power to reduce copyright infringement in the community?

Gee obviously that would stop people from taking others work that is also copyrighted.

http://www.garrysmod.org/downloads/?a=view&id=46451

MFtipDpoE9Y

iHcKtY8X12E

[noubernou 77]

Cookieeater I Suggest you remove that video and the link to the ripper tool from this forum.

most of us here knows about thise ripper tools.

it has no place on a public forum showing user "who" doesnt know about this tools how easly it can be done.

that video and link doesnt help anybody. if they want to learn how to rip models we should not contruibute any information on how its done. let them find out about thise tools on ther own.

altho i understand your intentions was not bad.

Posts like these just show the futility of the argument.

My theory is that if you never intended to sell the work in the first place then its much easier to ignore someone making money off of it.

If you are so bummed about people potentially ripping off your model why aren't you selling it also?

[max power 21]

@Cookieeater, if you can't be bothered to read the thread properly, or if you have and you are unable to understand proper written english, I'm afraid that engaging you would be both a waste of your time and a waste of mine.

Posts like these just show the futility of the argument.

My theory is that if you never intended to sell the work in the first place then its much easier to ignore someone making money off of it.

If you are so bummed about people potentially ripping off your model why aren't you selling it also?

I think you're looking at this from the wrong end. We're talking about control of the ip that we own, not about who gets what money for doing what.

[Sibby 10]

So we gone from having non editable missions like DR, to completely insulting each other. Nice...

[[frl]myke 14]

It seems like whats mainly split up here are the modelers for locking and the coders/scripters against locking. I believe that modelers already have their "locked" models in the fact that you can't export from O2, if you don't believe me, here it is:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Oxygen_2_-_Manual#Import_.2F_Export

Might be that this BIWIKI page is outdated:

If you are concerned with your models being uploaded on Turbosquid with the lack of protection even with no export function, locking it won't do shit as they can use a ripper. And if you are so concerned about having your models stolen that you won't decide to make content, YOU SHOULDN'T BE MODDING IN THE FIRST PLACE AS THERE IS NO PROTECTION ONCE YOU HIT UPLOAD.

Well, maybe this is the best proposition so far. I will think about it.

[noubernou 77]

I think you're looking at this from the wrong end. We're talking about control of the ip that we own, not about who gets what money for doing what.

If you aren't making money off of it then what is the reason to control it, at least controlling it so heavy handed as some suggest in this thread?

[Zipper5 74]

I get the feeling some modelers in this thread might actually be making money off of selling them. Just a hunch.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Are there any good and userfriendly security solutions against ip theft of community made addons/missions etc in any game + "for free" ?

Imho its 100% up to the ip owner to sue someone for theft. A "optional lock" is nice to have but its not BIS business to protect every script/addon outside their own work/ip.

If you are not able or like to sue the thieves - they win.

Face it - there is no one who search and takes action against ip theft without anything in return.

btw one could say:

For teh lulz - the only reason anyone does anything for free in games! ;)

[soul_assassin 1750]

I get the feeling some modelers in this thread might actually be making money off of selling them. Just a hunch.

yeh sure, some do. why not? But at the same time I give the chance to you to play with it for free.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@Soul_Assassin: Quoting you from another thread (which is the third example that I know of in a week that contains this kind of noise, and which is what I hope will end):

If you bought it, it doesnt bother me, go ahead and do whatever you like I do support new content, but I also support full transparency, so if you would have sated in your first post "oh yeh btw, before anyone says anything, the models are deespona commercial models" would have avoided any misunderstanding to begin with.

How can you claim "you support full transparency" in one thread, and here you support locking your addons (so nobody can even check)? That's the second little got'cha in a few hours ;) Why do you need the ability to protect your addon, but the new guy on the block automatically join as a suspect? Didn't look like he was too happy about it either. The last guy this happened to just left. Can't remember who the third guy was atm.

It's not that I don't care about theft, or him stealing or not. It's about keeping the accusations somewhat private at least until proof exist. You claim to read licenses and how holy those are. Like I mentioned in that thread, how about rules, like, I don't know, §20 and §17? ;) Also, he could be picking up on my cue "bought" and lie straight to our faces. If still suspicious, why not contact De Espona and check?

Oh, and I'm aware I'm breaking that rule myself. This was for demonstrative purposes only.

Edited November 2, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[soul_assassin 1750]

@Soul_Assassin: Quoting you from another thread (which is the third example that I know of in a week that contains this kind of noise, and which is what I hope will end):

How can you claim "you support full transparency" in one thread, and here you support locking your addons (so nobody can even check)? That's the second little got'cha in a few hours ;) Why do you need the ability to protect your addon, but the new guy on the block automatically join as a suspect? Didn't look like he was too happy about it either. The last guy this happened to just left. Can't remember who the third guy was atm.

It's not that I don't care about theft, or him stealing or not. It's about keeping the accusations somewhat private at least until proof exist. You claim to read licenses and how holy those are. Like I mentioned in that thread, how about rules, like, I don't know, §20 and §17? ;) Also, he could be picking up on my cue "bought" and lie straight to our faces. If still suspicious, why not contact De Espona and check?

Oh, and I'm aware I'm breaking that rule myself. This was for demonstrative purposes only.

You obviously don't understand what I mean by transparency. Transparency = honesty. If you tell me you bought it then fine i believe you, but buying a model does not give you the right to say "I made it". Im not gonna ravage your pbo. In that thread i was just referring to the guy mentioning that the model is not his originally, which he failed to specify. You can also see in the rest of the post I CLEARELY state that I actually spotted the model before and did not bring it up, only after Darkhorse mentioned it did I say anything.

got'cha nothing