Move Hand Grenades to action menu

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

I still don't see the point, sorry. I'm playing this game and its predecessors since 2001 and i never ever threw a grenade by mistake

Same here.

If you setup your controls in a way they works for you then there shouldn't be an issue.

[Luomu 10]

Related: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/13846 and http://dev-heaven.net/issues/13333

Edited September 23, 2010 by Luomu

[no use for a name 0]

Same here.

If you setup your controls in a way they works for you then there shouldn't be an issue.

??? Are you not understanding...how can we "setup our controls" when the controls ARE the issue!! It's on the same button as the fire selector, how does that even make sense?? To get from 3-rnd burst/full auto back to semi, you have to cycle past the grenade option, (and sometimes multiple times if you have different smoke grenades loaded); then you shoot thinking you selected semi-auto but instead it was grenades.

When I'm trying to shoot a moving target, the last thing I want to do is have to take my eyes off of it and look up in the corner to make sure I don't have nades selected. :j:

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not a problem, or there isn't a better solution.

Edited September 24, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[moach_mayhem 10]

agreed!

its very awkward to have grenades toggled by the fire selector - this makes very little sense and provides for very cumbersome grenade-throwing....

this is most evident compared to other games such as Modern Warfare, in which grenades are always a single click away

there should be a dedicated key for cycling grenade types, and another to throw whatever you have selected (optimally, the same key, but with shift held to select)

both of these commands should be mappable - not everyone has the same keyboard

analyzing from a usability point-of-view (based on what i learned on that subject in game-design college) we have:

to throw a grenade

-> F key (select burst fire) -> F key (select auto fire) -> F key (select grenade) ->

LBM (thows grenade) -> F key (select smoke grenade) -> F key (back to semi-auto fire)

damn... 6 player actions were required to throw a simple grenade....

this could be as simple as:

-> G* key (throws grenade)

* 'G' could be any other key, really....

one single action... grenade, bang! some bad guys are dead!

to switch grenade types, simply hold shift and press that same key untill you get what you want (active type should appear in the GUI)

much easier no?

[CarlGustaffa 4]

this could be as simple as:

-> G* key (throws grenade)

* 'G' could be any other key, really....

'G' already used for 'Gear' dialog. Please pick another one.

"Throws grenade". Which grenade? Smoke? No? Press Shift-G again. Frag? Ahh, yes. But hey, I got several kinds of frags. What frag? Press again. What about satchels, mines, stones even, and IEDs? What about other special purpose equipment? What is achieved? Pretty much nothing, it's still a time consuming process.

We're getting so many options as the equipment of the world nad game grows more and more complex, that parts of the interface needs some heavy brainstorming put into it.

Especially for this unrealistic multirole soldier many players want to be. The f-cycle thing is only a problem if you start having too much equipment. For the normal (non special forces) soldier (check vanilla loadouts), it's not much of an issue. Most of the time you only have one type to worry about (grenades or smoke), in some cases two (grenades and smoke). Three would be the exception, and probably require a backpack.

If anything should be a quick selector, I think it would have to be shift F to safe the main weapon or at least put it into its first supported mode. Throwing a grenade (frag, smoke, marker, or even planting a satchel or mine) is a planned thing. There is plenty of time to select the correct "firemode" to achieve this. Getting back to normal fire mode, however, isn't. It's a reflex action when needed and should be reflected as such in the game by allowing quick access to "reset the firemode" to either safe or default firemode. It's then intuitive to get ready to shoot.

Summary:

The interface could need a major rewamp on several things. But it doesn't have to be major if all we want is quicker keys, a Shift-F to "reset firemode for main weapon" is all we need, in conjunction with players not bringing everything to the battlefield because the game mode allows them to.

[moach_mayhem 10]

you give me an idea -

what if F cycles fire mode ONLY for the selected weapon, holding the F key, however, overrides the action menu to allow the mousewheel to cycle between throwables?

you wouldn't even need to "select" grenade types, just scroll to highlight the one you need and fire - off it goes...

release F and you're back in the same firing mode with your favourite combat rifle

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

??? Are you not understanding...how can we "setup our controls" when the controls ARE the issue!!

I am understanding I know its on the same button, and it dont bother me so how can it be an issue,

i have had my controls setup the same way since I started playing OFP back when it came out,

and alot of playing and alot of years have past since then.

With time, like anyone regular use and practice if you will does make for a more proficient

and more skilled abilities then for those who have less time in practice or experience in the same endevor.

It's on the same button as the fire selector, how does that even make sense??

It dont make sense because you have problem with it, and for obvious reasons it dont work for you.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not a problem,

or there isn't a better solution.

Only a problem if you make it out to be a problem, a problem arises when you fail to adapt,

or it simply dont work for you. A good solution must be adaptable and not be limited to a specific

key like the keys are currently setup, it is limited. I wouldn't mind a better solution but if it dont happen

as in it changes in the next patch or even game then its not like its a major draw back

its just one small issue that hasn't really stopped anyone from playing.

We're getting so many options as the equipment of the world nad

game grows more and more complex

Much agreed, the system has evolved, really starting in Arma when new controls

and changes were added, and more options were given.

simply hold shift and press that same key untill you get what you want

(active type should appear in the GUI)

still to much work, As said before i believe, have grenades on its own button,

as grenades can have smoke, and types of grenades, like American grenades, to Russian grenades,

then if your in OA/BAF I would assume another type, of course to if you play with ACE2

then you have flashbang, and tear gas as well.

It could be 1 button made as a selector and a toggle at the same time where you hit the

button it moves through the options you want and then hit the button again and it selects it,

much like the toggle between walk, and run, I think that would be faster, and not have the

button setup on a predefined button as everyone uses the keys different.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Gnter Severloh

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Related:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=101688

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1732349 (my last post here is a fairly comprehensive suggestion how to improve things while trying to stay ahead of upcoming needs - a simple button remap for one single function won't cut it in the long run).

[arthur666 10]

I agree with the OP, and yall have some clever solutions.

This has bothered me for a long time. I just fired my M203, and another enemy soldier stands up 20m away, aiming right at me. Hit the weapons key "handgrenade". Nope don't want that... "smokeshell" noooo.... "Satchel charge" cmon cmon.... "IR Strobe" what the f...?

Ok, so I exagerate how long it takes to cycle thru, but I'ld rather be able to make a split-second snap-shot than take about 2 whole seconds to cycle back to my rifle.

[no use for a name 0]

I am understanding I know its on the same button, and it dont bother me so how can it be an issue,

i have had my controls setup the same way since I started playing OFP back when it came out, and alot of playing and alot of years have past since then. With time, like anyone regular use and practice if you will does make for a more proficient and more skilled abilities then for those who have less time in practice or experience in the same endevor.

It dont make sense because you have problem with it, and for obvious reasons it dont work for you.

Only a problem if you make it out to be a problem, a problem arises when you fail to adapt, or it simply dont work for you. A good solution must be adaptable and not be limited to a specific key like the keys are currently setup, it is limited.

Guess what, I've been "adapting" to it since OFP. It never made sense back then and it still doesn't now; but obviously it hasn't stopped me from playing either. But I (and what looks like the majority of the people posting in this thread) would like it to change.

I wouldn't mind a better solution but if it dont happen as in it changes in the next patch or even game then its not like its a major draw back its just one small issue that hasn't really stopped anyone from playing.

Then why argue about it??? If you don't care either way, why put up a big front on how it shouldn't change and it's fine the way it is?? Are you trolling?

Edited September 25, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

Are you trolling? Did I say i didn't care, did i actually say it dont matter.

Since your not really adding to the discussian which I have in my posts maybe your the one trolling.

Guess what, I've been "adapting" to it since OFP. It never made sense back then

Did you say something back then, did anyone bring up the discussian that this setup

for the weapons switching dont work or its frustrating, might have been possible to change it earlier on.

Heres an honest question is the same switching in OA and BAF too?

I would assume so, I dont think everyone is strictly playing Arma2.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Gnter Severloh

[twirly 11]

Then why argue about it??? If you don't care either way, why put up a big front on how it shouldn't change and it's fine the way it is?? Are you trolling?

Hey buddy....You seem to just spend time on here telling people they are "trolls". You called me a "troll" yesterday for complaining about the netcode and warping.

We paid money for this game and have every right to say what we think as long as we are not rude! Key word being "rude". We are really all small shareholders in BIS!

You actually seem to be one that is simply trolling looking for trouble. Have you ever helped anyone?

Get a life son!...and realise that you may not be dealing with kids all the time here.

Edited September 25, 2010 by twirly

[no use for a name 0]

Hey buddy....You seem to just spend time on here telling people they are "trolls". You called me a "troll" yesterday for complaining about the netcode and warping.

We paid money for this game and have every right to say what we think as long as we are not rude! Key word being "rude". We are really all small shareholders in BIS!

You actually seem to be one that is simply trolling looking for trouble. Have you ever helped anyone?

Get a life son!...and realise that you may not be dealing with kids all the time here.

You're right, I payed for the game so I have a right to suggest something different.

Also, get your facts straight next time 'bro'. I didn't call you a troll in the other thread; and do a search next time and you'll see I've done my fair share of trying to help people out. Not that that's even relevant since I was somewhat agreeing with you and trying to figure out a viable solution. How is that counter-productive??

lol...do you read your posts before posting? Oh, and Why are you hostile towards me??

Sorry I have an opinion(s) you agree with...? :j:

Edited September 26, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[twirly 11]

You're right, I payed for the game so I have a right to suggest something different.

Also, get your facts straight next time 'bro'. I didn't call you a troll in the other thread (which I might add is pretty much the same as this one lol). Do a search next time and you'll see I've done my fair share of trying to help people out. Not that that's even relevant since I was somewhat agreeing with the OP and trying to figure out a viable solution. How is that counter-productive??

lol...do you read your posts before posting?

Sorry I have an opinion(s) you disagree with :j:

I am the OP! ...so much for reading huh?

[no use for a name 0]

I am the OP! ...so much for reading huh?

I know you were the OP; and I was AGREEING with you that something needs to be different. Why are you arguing with me on this???

Never mind, you're obviously confused and don't understand what's going on.

---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

Are you trolling? Did I say i didn't care, did i actually say it dont matter. Since your not really adding to the discussian which I have in my posts maybe your the one trolling.

You're the one not adding anything by flaming me for suggesting something I think should be changed. The whole point of this post was to change something; and you're in here saying it shouldn't be changed at all and to just deal with it. How is that adding to the discussion? Also, why do you keep twisting everything I've said and use it against me? You're posts don't even make sense when you do this!! I was legitimately asking if you were a troll because you put up this huge argument about why it shouldn't be changed; but then in the end you said you really don't care either way. My point was, if "it dont matter" to you then why put up this huge argument about it? And how am I not adding to the discussion when I was agreeing with the OP and trying to come up with a solution that everybody would like??

Did you say something back then, did anyone bring up the discussian that this setup for the weapons switching dont work or its frustrating, might have been possible to change it earlier on.

I don't remember what I posted on some forum 8+ years ago; but I know I mentioned something when Arma1 came out.

Heres an honest question is the same switching in OA and BAF too? I would assume so, I dont think everyone is strictly playing Arma2.

Yes, the same switching exists in OA/BAF. And it's even worse since now we have IR strobes, so that's even one more thing to cycle thru. What else are they going to add to the cycle in the future??

Some people need to take a deep breath, read all the posts, and then think about what they're typing before they click the submit button.

Edited September 26, 2010 by No Use For A Name

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

The whole point of this post was to change something; and you're in here saying it shouldn't be changed at all and to just deal with it.

I never said that anything shouldn't be changed,

I said its not an issue with me.

you put up this huge argument about why it shouldn't be changed

I only responded to what you said, as you have an issue with it. I never said it shouldn't be changed,

I'm fine with the way it is as it never bothered me, but if there was a change then I would be fine with that,

I'm not complaining about the controls, but this thread makes for an interesting discussian on what

other possibilites there might be, and I responded as I enjoy discussians about other possibilites on

features or whatever it maybe in the game, as well as have ideas of my own that could possibly

bring some more light to the picture.

My really only and biggest gripe that I'm complaining about is the animations that were introduced in

Arma, the ones lacking, and the ones still current in Arma2 and prob OA and BAF,

I already had posted a topic for that so i dont want to get off topic here.

sorry for any misunderstandings but lets move on, and see if we can and prob already

have come up with a better solution, and more ideas on how a new control setup would work,

Edited September 26, 2010 by Gnter Severloh

[wolfbite 8]

My thoughts on the issue Would be weapon selection then fire selector then fire selector

E.g 1=Primary then F to toggle Single-Burst-Auto-Launcher

2=Secondary then F to toggle Single-Burst-Auto

3=Launcher

4=Grenades/Satchels F to togle frag-smoke-Satchel

Or 3 and 4 both in one. As long as its not just alt fire for grenade launcher I'm happy though

[nkenny 1057]

Thinking the same thing as Wolfbite really, except I'd want to eliminate the need for the F button.

~tilde key to toggle between command interface and weapon/equipment interface.

---

Equipment Interface

1: Select Primary weapon. Press again to toggle firemodes (and launcher)

2: Select Secondary weapon. ie: Pistol. Press again to toggle firemodes

3: Select Grenades. Press again to toggle through (He, smoke_white, smoke_etc, IR beacon)

4: Select Launcher or open backpack

5: Misc-- have I forgotten anything?

---

Vehicle Interface

Same system could easily have been applied within vehicles.

1: Driver

2: Gunner

3: Command slot

4: Cargo (toggle cargo position)

---

Command Interface

1: HALT / Follow me toggle.

2: Target that* Automagically assign closest AI with appropriate weapon to target. Press multiple times to assign more.

3: Danger! -- activate danger mode + open fire. press again to toggle.

4: Stealth! -- active stealth mode + hold fire. press again to toggle.

-k

[NoRailgunner 0]

NkEnNy how should such an interface be non-intrusive and non-consolish? I remember some odd screen interface designs that even stopped the actual gameplay only to select an command/weapon. :rolleyes:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

~tilde key to toggle between complex command interface (no need for something special) and weapon/equipment interface, only if complex command interface is bound to the same keys. I'd like the option to bind these to the numpad keys.

And I'd prefer 2 as main weapon (3 as grenade launcher), while 1 is the backup weapon. Reason; 2 is much easier to reach, and is something that I'd look for way more often than my sidearm (which I really don't use anyway). I.e. after having thrown a grenade.

As I've said before, in this thread, the need to think bigger and provide a consistent all over interface is important for future expandability - weapon systems grows more and more complex with a lot of stuff you can do to them.

5: Misc-- have I forgotten anything?

Yeah, how about loading of different ammunitions or setting weapon systems (artillery reload, fuse settings etc)? With that system we're still forced on using the highly inadequate (and too often outright dangerous) action menu.

Not sure why keys are needed to change vehicle position. It's not something that you do often, and certainly it's not something that requires the speed of keys vs action menu. If anything, position switching should be made a lot slower than it is, not faster. Unless this is now an action game instead of the thinking mans game. So I disagree, there is really no need to mix up keys with vehicle position changes. Action menu or even a radial, sure, why not. It's a bit slower, but it can provide you with additional information if needed.

I'd prefer if everything about a weapon could be done from a single place, rather than interface menus and action menus. And the number of hotkeys meaning a lot of different things? Nah, I think even todays system is hard to remember.

My idea goes a long way in attempting to unify things. It's still hotkey based, and its only intrusive if you need to bring up the menu and do modifications. F key can still be used to cycle the current weapon; if you have a rifle selected, it would be used to toggle firemodes only. Pressing 2 would select that weapon if it was not already selected. If it was selected it will toggle firemodes (if that was the natural thing to do). But the kicker is this; by holding the 2 key, a menu pops up allowing you to do a lot more: Tactical reloads from more types of magazines you may carry, modify animated parts or hidden selections about that weapon, or zero adjustments - basically could be anything.

If you had a launcher up, holding 6 for launcher brings up the same menu but with context sensitive items that fits that weapon; reload of different ammunition types, configure ammunition types (how about a timer fuse for MAAWS illumination?), select sight mode (nightsight, dayscope, iron sights - hidden selections again), or set the weapon zero.

The idea is that even for weapons as different as rifle vs launcher, the same types of lists appear at the same locations in the menu. It creates a sense of consistency. The menu is shown as long as the number key is kept pressed.

Now everything isn't available in todays game, but be sure that modders would use it and it offers great value for future possibilities.

Say that a modder wants to make something like an OICW. This is a very futuristic (but cancelled) weapon system that allows some massive interaction requirements. Lasers, flashlights, several settings per grenade, you name it. Today he would be forced to use an action menu from hell, or create a custom dialog for it. Then the next modder comes along with similar ideas - same action menu from hell or a different custom dialog. Not very consistent.

Let's face it. The interface is in desperate needs of a facelift. The current completely key based interface is working good for those already accustomed to it, but I've seen it scare away players coming from other (ok, more action based) gaming platforms looking for more realism. They quickly drop out, blaming the interface. "Their loss" is probably on your lips now. But these are players the game needs. Intrusive as it may be, visual feedback is important for a game as complex as this. Especially for new players who may only be used to using a few keys.

[wolfbite 8]

Well with mine and NkEnNy's system its 3 or 4 keys for the weapons and a fire mode toggle Reloading could be done by either tapping r for standard reload or hold r and select an ammo type fusing ammo could fall in the r screen aswell but people might prefer a key toggle like 5 or ~.

I just find all these radial systems can be a bit fidly in the heat of battle

[CarlGustaffa 4]

hold r and select an ammo type

I just find all these radial systems can be a bit fidly in the heat of battle

Ehh? Select ammo type certainly sounds like a graphical interface to me.

[nkenny 1057]

NkEnNy how should such an interface be non-intrusive and non-consolish? I remember some odd screen interface designs that even stopped the actual gameplay only to select an command/weapon. :rolleyes:

How is adding the traditional button layout for First Person shooters in any way related to console game interfaces?

Also buttons 1-4 when not selecting something as part of a sub-menu do nothing in Arma2 nor have they since opf) . Try it.

I am also leery of too many context-sensitive or radial menu systems. As the current Action Interface so ably demonstrates-- toggling things by button (or shortcut keys) is infinitely better.

-k

[wolfbite 8]

Ehh? Select ammo type certainly sounds like a graphical interface to me.

I said radial not graphical... Scroll down like the half life weapon select...but ammo types

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I am also leery of too many context-sensitive or radial menu systems. As the current Action Interface so ably demonstrates-- toggling things by button (or shortcut keys) is infinitely better.

:butbut: But, I'm also saying use number keys to select (if not already selected) and toggle modes (if already selected). Except I need a few more keys to allow for all kinds of weapons (incl vehicle weapons and statics, and custom "items" of whatever kind). The menu part kicks in when you hold the key for half a second or whatever, and would allow you to do things the game isn't setup to do yet.

Also I'm saying keep attached secondary weapons separate. That way you don't have to cycle through a shitload of ammunition types or use the stupid action menu to do it.

F can still cycle just as today between everything (for those that prefer that), or only cycle the modes of the current weapon (similar to what cycling with number key would do). It should be a user choice.

R can still act as a normal reload, and you could have added capability of the scrolling menu like wolfbite suggests by holding R and selecting what to reload. But I know there are times when a twitchy mousewheel (same problem as for action menus) are not what I want. Maybe it would be fine for reloading different M203 rounds, but (even if mouse wheel selection was possible) I would personally use the hold popup to do any satchel work. I've just had a bit too many accidents :o

Why did I put specials (like GPS, wirecutter, whatever), Static Weapons, and Vehicle Weapons to separate numbers? Because I'm hoping one day we'll have "use personal equipment" while in a vehicle or static. So I could be mounting a HMMWV M2, and when that jams, I bring up my personal weapon. Not possible now as we all know, but maybe some day. Lets try to think ahead and not lock the mindset about what is currently possible.

Which, frankly, isn't all that much atm. No "use personal weapons", no GL sight adjustments by weapon animation, no weapon configuration, action menu and key combo to operate vehicle weapons, no fuse or timer settings for advanced munitions or even artillery/mortar munitions. Modern battlefield? :rolleyes:

And for that, all the number keys are needed. Players should be able to choose between the tilde ~ mode swap or map commanding to the numpad numkeys. Personally I don't do a lot of fighting and shooting when I'm trying to command, so I could go for the tilde ~ mode swap, but I think I would go for the numpad key mode anyway.

I just find all these radial systems can be a bit fidly in the heat of battle

Most of the stuff I showed in the quad menu (as opposed to diamond menu and radial menu), are not stuff that you do in the midst of battle. Furthermore, most of them aren't even possible yet, and those that aren't already handled with the normal keypresses, are stuff you either have to use the action menu for (could still be there if you want) or have to rely on special menu layouts for that item. None of which are any less fiddly than a popup menu.

My key differences to your reload menu, is in the way they are shaped. Nothing should technically prevent you from using the scroll wheel to select between them, and I don't see why normal movement keys should have to be prevented either. Hell, it could even be user selectable; scroll wheel only for selection leaving even the mouse pointer operational, or scroll wheel and mouse pointer (to click the item) but you loose the mouse input to look around with.

Your reload list would be in one of those quadrants. But there are three other quadrant that could be used in a consistent fashion to do a lot of other things related to weapon systems and configuration. If you manage to put together a list of maximum 16 (4 lists of 4 items) items and show them as a single list, it becomes messy, unintuitive, and will take a lot longer time to navigate. The radial menu (which was deliberately made big to show it could hold images) would not be suitable for a weapons menu (with its 2 rings of 8 items).

I said radial not graphical... Scroll down like the half life weapon select...but ammo types

Oh, sorry. I got the impression that you thought graphical interfaces was intrusive, but I mixed you with someone else.