Dutch Minister may ban remains in extremely violent games

[4 IN 1 0]

LOL jerry, you really have a huge pill of stock :p

[ziiip 1]

As long as they don't ban prostitution by the time I get to Amsterdam in two weeks I don't really mind.

Abs

Oh boy. :D:D

[NeMeSiS 11]

i may be incorrect but isn't dutch a 3rd world country ??

Yes. We cant even afford real shoes so we use wooden ones.

[Buzz_Fledderjohn 0]

And we get our energy from windmills, we have no electricity. (I receive and post forum messages through the mail, and a guy in the UK posts my messages for me)

Edited August 28, 2010 by Buzz_Fledderjohn

[Guest]

^^

Both of you are confusing " friesland" with holland.

:bounce3:

[vilas 477]

Cars kill 10's of 1000's of children every year, but theres no outrage to ban them. Videogames are not proven to actually do any harm, but they're evil and should be banned, right?

yes, cars kill

but if you say that games not, than HOW you will explain fact when addicted to gaming fat no-life kills parent who forbid him to play or kills others by gun, cause had no friends, only shooting games ???

those things happen in real, not in book

it is of course fault of giving kids game rated for adults , but even in Arma community we had some addon-trouble makers who were 13-15 and were making addons-trouble or CoD fans that criticize BIS for making sequel to OFP cause they want CoD, GR, SoF from this game and nick says they are 13 ?

i know one example of fat no life who sit tens of hours daily on FPS game (no work, just gaming, if you take him game, he is violent)

Edited August 28, 2010 by vilas

[nzdfcrash 33]

taking political correctness to the next level

[dm 9]

but if you say that games not, than HOW you will explain fact when addicted to gaming fat no-life kills parent who forbid him to play or kills others by gun, cause had no friends, only shooting games

There is no 100% correlation between playing violent games and becoming a derranged murderer... In all the cases where people have gone on to shoot others there have been histories of mental illness and other psychological problems.

The violent game might not be the best thing in these circumstances, but its certainly not as if these people are happy, normal folk before they finally snap. The game doesnt turn them into that.

There are, for example, 1000000's upon 1000000's of people which have the same problem, but their catalyists are alcohol, money, drugs, gambling, people, possessions and any number of seemingly harmless daily items. Try and take it away and they fly into the same uncontrolled rage, and eventually they snap and do something terrible.

[xPaveway 10]

yes, cars kill

but if you say that games not, than HOW you will explain fact when addicted to gaming fat no-life kills parent who forbid him to play or kills others by gun, cause had no friends, only shooting games ???

those things happen in real, not in book

it is of course fault of giving kids game rated for adults , but even in Arma community we had some addon-trouble makers who were 13-15 and were making addons-trouble or CoD fans that criticize BIS for making sequel to OFP cause they want CoD, GR, SoF from this game and nick says they are 13 ?

i know one example of fat no life who sit tens of hours daily on FPS game (no work, just gaming, if you take him game, he is violent)

How will you explain fact when car driver kills your friend???

It's of course fault of letting people drive! Ban cars now!

[trickster1982 10]

There is no 100% correlation between playing violent games and becoming a derranged murderer... In all the cases where people have gone on to shoot others there have been histories of mental illness and other psychological problems.

So ban people with mental illness from playing violent games? but then comes the point of how do you vet that? Also some people display no outward signs of mental illness until that one day when they just snap, so how do you account for them? I play violent games myself so I'm not saying they should be banned outright, but to say there is no link whatsoever would be naive

[dm 9]

So ban people with mental illness from playing violent games?

You'd have to ban them from drinking, using drugs, smoking or doing ANYTHING else which is addictive too. But thats not possible.

but then comes the point of how do you vet that?

You don't and you can't. The point is that video games are an easy scape-goat for such things. They're not the cause, they're not the reason, but they're easy to point the finger at when an angry public is out for "justice" or revenge or whatever after someone does some shooting. And thats wrong, its bad and its massive hypocrisy. They don't want to ban violent movies or violent tv shows, but they do want to ban violent video games. Wheres the logic? All 3 have appropriate age ratings, so they either need to be enforced properly across the board, or all need to be banned. I know which option I'd prefer...

but to say there is no link whatsoever would be naive

Did I say that? No I didn't. I said that there is no 100% correlation between playing violent video games and becoming a derranged murderer.

People used to do derranged murders before computers, hell before electricity, even existed. So to blame video games for it is like blaming the zippo lighter for the great fire of london...

[echo1 0]

yes, cars kill

but if you say that games not, than HOW you will explain fact when addicted to gaming fat no-life kills parent who forbid him to play or kills others by gun, cause had no friends, only shooting games ???

This morning I wore a red jumper. In the afternoon, it rained. Explain that.

[pre-Vet 10]

^^

Both of you are confusing " friesland" with holland.

Nice one :)

Can't resist:

What is yellow and travels back in time....

train to friesland .

[legion7698 0]

Banning games is one thing but I always think the two main factors of disorderly behavior in children come down to parenting and/or socioty. After all its been proven that the media has a more adverce effect than any game will. I mean come on the news reports all these violant things such as say the death of some soldiers then with the same breath go onto the subject of some bloody pop star or something. A subject they seem to have more passion for.

At the end of the day people are always looking for something to blame for thier own mistakes. Example of say a few months ago here in the UK a girl died by drinking a substance as part of a drinking game that is used within the building trade (cant remember what it was used for exactly). Here parents then go on to blame the company that made it and tried to get the government to ban it. They fail to realise that the fault is not the products and the company that makes it but in fact is the fault of the girl herself, her friends who encouraged her to drink it and possible her parents ( I say possible as sometimes no matter how well you do they still might do something like this).

Also (final bit :)) many years ago over here a man went on a killing spree while thinking he was his character from dungeons and dragons and there was talk of banning it as it was obviously a bad influance :rolleyes:. No matter what you ban people will always find something to influance them as the fault is with them and those around them.

Anyway I'll stop here as I could go on all day about such things. I will also state these are my views on the subject and I understand that people may not agree with me. So please treat this as it is. A point of view that may not be your own.

Regards,

LEGION7698.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

This issue seems to rise once n' while in every countries.

There has been few times in here as well when some psychologist or a minister goes on a personal crusade/rampage.

I think it's a desperate attempt to boost one's job image in fear or losing next election or something. There's hardly no rational concern since we are aware of the age limits at least in here and they keep an eye on stores which sell the games.

I have a tendency to go straight to the top when some thing annoys me. That's why those morons are in there.

Write to the man and explain why he is wrong. I've always gotten a reply from each minister I've written to (sometimes with very nasty tone but don't overdo it).

[vilas 477]

DM i agree that not 100% corelation, but at least some percent is

problem is in rating (i dont know who rates game, you or other man said who, okay, i believe)

but problem is also in shops selling it to non-16 but for 13 for example

in TV there was news 2 weeks ago about teenager who killed parents for taking off keyboard ,

cause for kid there is no difference between virtual and real world,

i agree that media (movies like "Natural born killers" or "Pulp Fiction" etc.) influence more, we had in Poland killing, when 2 boys killed someone "cause they follow movie"

thats why rating and keeping shops obey rating is only way

banning ideas come always when something bad show statistic and gov. is looking for cure

maybe in NL there was few such murders and investigators found game as reason ?

maybe shops not care about rating and sell to 10 years old kids ?

i dont know how would behave NL shop keeper when 12 years old boy comes "i wanna buy game when there is a lot of blood and shooting"

ooo i forget, in time when we have torrents, they dont need shops ...

[Sith 0]

problem is in rating (i dont know who rates game, you or other man said who, okay, i believe)

It honestly doesn't work like that. See if you can inform yourself about what goes into a game rating procedure some time. It's a strict and arduous procedure, where independent rating agencies in each sales region (PEGI, ESRB, USK, etc.) will go through all game content. It often takes a developer quite a lot of time to provide all these materials, and adding even a basic line of dialogue after the rating process can get you into a fair bit of trouble.

for example in TV there was news 2 weeks ago about teenager who killed parents for taking off keyboard

What game was the kid playing though? A violent and bloody 18+ puppy murder simulator, or Barbie's Horse Adventure? Kids (and adults ..) get upset when you take away their toys. Messed up kids may get more than a bit upset, regardless of what kind of toy it was. I've seen a little girl scream at her mom she hated her, after throwing away the stick of an ice lolly the kid had just finished.

maybe in NL there was few such murders and investigators found game as reason ?

Nope.

maybe shops not care about rating and sell to 10 years old kids ?

Nope.

That's the whole issue in this discussion. Your concerned point of view would be entirely good and true if there actually was a problem. But there isn't, hence people's scepticism regarding a moral inquisition against one very specific new medium. The same silly sociopolitical outrage was triggered by the introduction of radio, film, television, rock&roll music, comic books, P&P roleplaying games and the Power Rangers. None of them were banned, so can you cite any showcase of their horrid impact on generations past and present?

[vilas 477]

but you know that all law system is done because one 1% of population is sick, not honest and evil

but it touches 99% too limiting their steps (for example must have confirmation certificate when you sell something, cause word is not enough, etc. etc. )

i have no idea what this minister had in idea, i just say about hypothetical things

murders influenced by PulpFiction and such like happened in real life too, and kid who killed parent was CS-addicted like few mad boys listening to black metal killed someone "for satan" too

problem is in "no-life addicted" people who sit by PC playing at 5 PM, 9 PM, 1 AM, 3 AM...

they make problems to other players, showing others as cycos (although rest treats game as fun after job, school or disabled who cannot do sport)

there are also cyco politicians we call them in Polish "nawiedzeni" (god told them so)

maybe in this case "god told him so" , i have no idea

all i know, that for sure violence in media (movies, games, tv) are one of factors that make young people be agressive (one of factors, not main, not only one)

i live in country which had socialistic cenzorship and movies without violence, peaceful lulaby for kids, peaceful movies for children etc.

and from Police data i know that violence level increased few times

in past killings performed by 15 y.o. were almost not present

young were shy and polite in general percentage

now those peaceful "Teddy bear and little cat" movies are replaced by "pulp fiction" and in reason it is normal to hear about "teenager who stabbed someone"

in Police stats it is raised few times new generation fed with violence grown, of course there are also other factors like economy etc.

but won't you tell me that man raised in teen age on "Gummi Bears, Lessie, family movies" will be the same as man who watched PulpFiction or Natural Born Killers

when you can compare violence statistics from countries that had violenc-blood- cenzorship like east block before 1989 and after 2000 (generation grown), you will see difference in number of violent acts , criminal acts

if someone is shaped that gun is solution, he not knows that talking is solution

in communism young men were helping old ladies to carry heavy shopping, now young men robs old lady from her money to have for beer

from Police stats and from old Policemen chats (ndkom. K..., my friend is 50, pdkom. M .. 44) i know that it raised very much

and for sure everyday media violence is present and gore website when someone kills cat and films it too

and it is not only because economical and police-state situation changed

really young men who raise on present culture are more violent and percentage of murders, beating to death, beating to wheelchair, robbers changed

and it is shown in psychological tests too (games are new branch of media, so for sure 10 years old kid who should watch Mumintroll , watches in TV a lot of things which make him aggressive and learns that violence is way to deal with problems)

please study more police and psychological test results on influence of media on teenagers/kids

kid "learns" watching adults, if kid learns on Pulp Fiction or Natu..BK or CS, you have the answer, cause kid follows like monkey, when you show monkey how to do something

Edited August 30, 2010 by vilas

[sic-disaster 311]

How many people have been killed for religious reasons?

When are we going to ban God?

[vilas 477]

thats why i am atheist

or at least anti-clerical

is it god...

not god

cause of churches, priests of all religions leaders,

not "god" told to kill, but "priests who served kings" to justify ruler (king) in his decisions, to divide people for "born with blue blood" and "power from god, thu shal obey holy king" etc.

church is institution that twists upside down idea of love within religion (from commandment "thou shall not kill" make "priest division" in army),

as for me, god can be banned, looking at humankind i not see reasons to be thankful, not only cause Inquisition and etc. murdered and tortured a lot of people,

Edited August 30, 2010 by vilas

[dm 9]

How many people have been killed for religious reasons?

When are we going to ban God?

You sir, just won the internets.

/thread.

[Sith 0]

Besides the fact that your comparisons are not doing much to support your argument (seriously .. Care Bears vs Natural Born Killers? Angelic communist teenagers?), there's one easy way to counter all your assumptions in regard to the topic at hand ...

There has been no significant increasing in violent crimes in the Netherlands over the past decade (and then some):

The dotted line labeled "geweld" (violence) shows only a very small increase over a period of 8 years. Follow-up statistics indicate that this trend actually showed a decrease after 2005.

There is absolutely zero proof that violent games, movies, books or music in any way contribute more to violent real-life behaviour than the ice lolly stick I mentioned in my previous post. So tell me, when will we see a crusade against this unholy corrupter of our younger generations? :p

[vilas 477]

than look at Polish police statistics, and you will see that there is influence of new generation born on "not care bears" , compare 1980s and 2000s crime rate (when in TV you have mostly "shoot blood movies" ) and heavy crime within teenagers over doubled , in some areas more than doubled, but tripled

"Angelic communist teenagers" - much more than now , thats why older generation (not 20 yo) have other vision of what was "steel curtain" , for sure "scouts" were different than "chavs" now not only because of effectiveness of enforce system, but also cause different things were shown to young people (cooperation vs. competition, teddy bears instead of pulp fiction etc. )

accept statistics, it doubled or three times more, so ... where it has it's roots (psychologists also show media and movies and etc.)

not only engine and wheels, but also fuel decides how far will you reach

comparing data like you , nonsense, you compare one third of generation, compare it with generation (20 years at least) , not few years

than maybe you will have difference between generation raised on Beverly Hils 90210 or wise movies from 60s and Natural Pulp blood fiction

at least in my country it is very visible , 2-3 times more in generation, maybe this minister is over reacting but for sure in countries which were in 2 systems, there is big place for research and study this

Edited August 30, 2010 by vilas

[Sith 0]

than look at Polish police statistics, and you will see that there is influence of new generation born on "not care bears" , compare 1980s and 2000s crime rate (when in TV you have mostly "shoot blood movies" ) and heavy crime within teenagers over doubled , in some areas more than doubled, but tripled

First of all, excuse my scepticism, but could you provide some statistical proof on that claim? Many people commonly perceive an increase in media coverage as an increase in occurance in these matters. Secondly, Polish youth is not the topic of this thread. We're talking about a ban in the Netherlands, where no such increase in violent crime has taken place.

comparing data like you , nonsense, you compare one third of generation, compare it with generation (20 years at least) , not few years

than maybe you will have difference between generation raised on Beverly Hils 90210 or wise movies from 60s and Natural Pulp blood fiction

Let's look at the emergence of all media reference you've brough up so far:

• Natural Born Killers: 1994
  
• Pulp Fiction: 1994
  
• Counter-Strike: 1999
  
• Games as mass mainstream medium: halfway nineties and onwards
  

Going by these dates, any change in behaviour of the generation brought up in a world of such horridly violent productions would have to show up in a graph detailing statistics from 1997 onwards. If the strong upwards trend would precede that timeframe, it would in fact be more likely to correlate to the preceding generation ... you know, the one that grew up on Care Bears and Utopian Communism.

My take on the possible difference between the Dutch and Polish situation? The alienating picture generated by modern mass media: you as a tiny insignificant person in perspective to a big uncaring world, had a far more destructive inpact in post-communist nations than it did in western nations. Trying to consolidate both the fact that "the government" is no longer going to hold your hand in troubled times, as well as the fact that the outside world suddenly became far more visible (post-1990) and turned out not to give a damn about you either ... was far more than a lot of "fragile" people in the post-communist countries could handle. Fragile people in western nations only had to deal with half the alienation, relatively speaking. But that's wildly going off-topic.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Sith

[berghoff 11]

This minister clearly has his priorities wrong.

Violent games are being sold for decades now and because people behind the cash register ignore the rules violent games must be banned for everyone, right that makes perfect sence. :rolleyes:

I agree with DM and Disaster here.

In the Netherlands violent people can go on leave (the idea alone is sickening) without security because of a sick person in the family while sentenced to jail. Oh yea, they dissapear ofcourse. He should focus his laser-sight on these more serious problems instead of innocent entertainment. :rolleyes:

What a joke.