Dutch Minister may ban remains in extremely violent games

[jerryhopper 286]

When stumbling upon it, i'd like to share this disturbing news from the Netherlands... the only country where Mariuhana is legal....

Minister Hirsch Ballin (see picture) of Justice maintains that a ban on extremely violent video games is necessary, if the sale of such games to children is not returned.That he wrote in response to parliamentary questions GroenLinks.

In late June showed that Justice Minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin was considering such a ban and the sale of "extremely violent" video games to children was not reduced. Then brought GroenLinks MP Tofik Dibi questions in parliament. He claimed that examination of a psychologist, which the Justice Minister to uphold a ban argued, correctly found that there was no reason for a ban.

In his replies to parliamentary questions the Justice Minister says it 'known' to be. He also mentions prompted a number of studies, mainly conducted in the nineties, showing that there is a connection between violent games and adverse effects on child development. The only recent research argues that Hirsch Ballin, in 2010, is not practical, but a concise, informative overview of previous studies. Further highlight is that in that statement is true, that "the playing of violent games are not necessarily aggressive behavior or violence caused but that part of the researchers believe that these negative effects exist. The compilers of the survey particularly recommended to follow the age rating.

Minister Hirsch Ballin maintains, however, that a ban is needed as sales to young people is not returned. The minister wrote last year have concluded agreements with representatives of the entertainment industry, if not to deliver care, the minister of action. This requires new legislation is needed, the minister writes.

Dibi MP asked the minister whether it would not seem arbitrary that there is no ban on violent films come, but possibly in such games. Hirsch Ballin believes however that there is less consensus in society for a ban on violent films. Similarly, more violent games have harmful effects. Taking the Minister writes to have a balance "between protecting the dignity interests of the child and the importance of freedom of expression". It is not clear what the minister means by this. The Ministry of Justice was unavailable for comment.

=== UPDATE ====

Majority of house of representatives vote against game ban

It is highly unlikely that a ban on "extremely violent" video games comes as the Justice Minister has proposed. From a tour of Tweakers.net among political parties that a majority opposes.

Much of the political parties in the House disagrees with the caretaker Minister of Justice Ernst Hirsch Ballin. The minister wants the sale of 'extremely violent' videogames and banning the sale of such games to young children is not returned. That he wrote earlier this summer in a letter to the House. Last week the Minister confirmed again in this case a ban would set.

The CDA-minister gets little support from other political parties. SP, PvdA, VVD and GroenLinks reacted negatively towards Tweakers.net expressed on a possible ban. These parties together have a majority of 86 seats of the 150 rooms.

Moreover, the PVV and D66, which wanted to or could give no comment, probably against a ban. That would be a parliamentary majority of 120 seats against.

MP Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert on the opposite Tweakers.net VVD says: "We are opposed to a game ban. That Hirsch Ballin no ban on violent films is because there would be less support in the community level than one game ban, she finds itself: "That a like watching movies and others prefer to play games, and that there will be a ban on violent games to come, is a bit strange. " The conservative MP could not say whether the negotiations on government formation on one game ban was discussed.

According to MP Martijn van Dam of the Labour Party is not for the government to "these limits' to. "You can not objectively determine what is extremely violent," says Van Dam. Furthermore: "There are already limits. It is already banned in games to incite hatred or violence." Van Dam thinks most people the difference between a good game and reality can be identified.

"We believe that vendors should have their affairs in order," says Green Left MP Tofik Dibi. "But we will never vote for a ban. There never was a causal relationship between games and aggression." As long as that link is not shown, supports his party no ban, says Dibi. "We as a party anyway cautious prohibited. SP-MP Sharon Gesthuizen also favors better enforcement of the age classification, but: "We are against a ban."

PvdA MP Van Dam also thinks that game stores could better age control than at present. According to Labour MP Van Dam is the proposal of Hirsch Ballin, however, amounts to censorship. He also suspects that the ban is not forthcoming, he thinks that the "tough words" the Minister primarily as a back door for industry is intended to force them to improve the control of age. VVD MP Hennis-Plasschaert said it is the responsibility primarily of parents wanting to explain: "The government can not solve everything."

The Freedom Party did not comment Tweakers.net opposite, but in an email exchange with a voter writes a member of the PVV group that his party "a ban on violent games and videos does not like." "What the PVV on something you do not worry," said a party worker. The mail exchange took place earlier this year, well before Hirsch Ballin his letter sent to the House. A month ago, confirmed a group secretary's view, however, over the same voters.

D66 was not available for comment, but said the party's election "not a public responsibility" to see "to develop policies for the content of games. Also requires the party against "censorship" in its media, the party wants to impose responsibility on parents' and not understood in the forbidden. " This suggests that a party ban on violent games probably will not support. Possibly also a prohibition against the Christian Union, the party responded last year, very cautious on any ban on Modern Warfare 2. The party could not be reached for comment. The SGP will probably support the minister, that party was in the past repeatedly in favor of a ban on violent games.

On September 15 the House will discuss the letter from Hirsch Ballin, then determines whether the letter or the substance is discussed controversial topic is explained. Since the government resigned, it has limited space for new policies to propose. GroenLinks MP Dibi also has a discussion with the Minister requested the ban, as he knows them enough support to get the debate is likely within two to three weeks instead.

==============

***

Crazy huh?

While reading this, the question 'what is extreme violence' becomes interesting.

i mean : Chopping someone's limbs off is extreme, but killing someone is quite extreme.

What really IS extreme? Mario, jumping up and down on some mushrooms can be quite disturbing for a 'plant-lover'.

There are many examples of violence in games. Even in ArmA!

i immediatly took precautions.

Msh_gC8s74Q

ps: if you're dutch, and have problems purchasing OA from your game-shop.

PM me and i'll hook you up for a reasonable price. ( i sell to age 18+ ONLY! )

Edited August 31, 2010 by jerryhopper

[NeMeSiS 11]

ps: if you're dutch, and have problems purchasing OA from your game-shop.

Looking at that stack, the reason for those problems seems to be you. ;)

[Pauldarrington 9]

Best Arma2 video ever, love your camera angles :P

[Zipper5 74]

That. Is. Awesome. :D

Well, not the ban, but... You get what I mean.

[ryguy 10]

Haha! God you are crazy... Like one of those guys who stocks up on food preparing for a nuclear holocaust xD

[mrcash2009 0]

Haha! God you are crazy... Like one of those guys who stocks up on food preparing for a nuclear holocaust xD

No, no ... you stock up for the global economic collapse, nuclear is so 80's darling. :)

This is all mainly about violence in games and "children".

Doesn't this simply come down to more focus on the parents to filter out like normal, plus the retailers making sure they have it working right regarding proper checks, all the usual things.

Its like banning alcohol becuase children can potentially drink it or get hold of it.

Edited August 27, 2010 by mrcash2009

[nodunit 397]

I garuntee you BIS staff will throw a party after seeing this video.

I find these violent game bans amusing, especially since nobody ever puts though to violent movies and how it always involves chidlren, why are we worried about children playing violent video games when they are 10 years old and swearing like an adult?

People really should stop putting the blame on companies for this kind of thing and point the finger at the ones who should be responsible IE the PARENT.

[mrcash2009 0]

especially since nobody ever puts though to violent movies and how it always involves chidlren

Yes check out "Kick Ass" that should be banned as you have a small child swearing and calling grown men "C**ts" getting beaten on by older men and slaughtering them, and that's all ok "its based on a comic" etc etc. Something a bit wrong with that film on that level. Edited August 27, 2010 by mrcash2009

[Sith 0]

Minister Hirsch Ballin (see picture) of Justice maintains that a ban on extremely violent video games is necessary, if the sale of such games to children is not returned.

I'm still very much confused about his eventual intentions in this regard. Most news reports I've read on the subject state that he's attempting to impose a ban on "sales to minors", rather than an all-out ban of said violent products. Along with the shady definition of "violent" in this context, I'm puzzled as to what exactly would be banned at the end of the day. If it would simply result in fines for retailers refusing to uphold age ratings on sales, that seems relatively harmless. But anything more than that would certainly guarantee the CDA to lose any remaining votes from the population under 60 from here on (the handful they had left). Calls for censorship have never been received very well here in the Netherlands.

Dibi MP asked the minister whether it would not seem arbitrary that there is no ban on violent films come, but possibly in such games. Hirsch Ballin believes however that there is less consensus in society for a ban on violent films.

How can you possibly give an answer like that and NOT start to question your own hypocrisy? :j:

[RavoC 10]

Maybe they should do the same as our supermarkets, show your ID if you look younger then 21 and want cigarettes or alcohol..xD

This doesn't make sense..

[jerryhopper 286]

I'm still very much confused about his eventual intentions in this regard. Most news reports I've read on the subject state that he's attempting to impose a ban on "sales to minors", rather than an all-out ban of said violent products. Along with the shady definition of "violent" in this context, I'm puzzled as to what exactly would be banned at the end of the day. If it would simply result in fines for retailers refusing to uphold age ratings on sales, that seems relatively harmless. But anything more than that would certainly guarantee the CDA to lose any remaining votes from the population under 60 from here on (the handful they had left). Calls for censorship have never been received very well here in the Netherlands.

How can you possibly give an answer like that and NOT start to question your own hypocrisy? :j:

hey Sith, i BET you're dutch!

dont u love politics?

[vilas 477]

problem with all laws and bans are due to small percent of cycos

law also need to have "possibility to do something and paragraph ready to use when need"

i know that on internet there are websites for psychopats or sadists with execution movies, decapitations, corpses in autolise , rape etc.

so law need paragraph to be used when someone will overdose and sick use "freedom"

military games freeks who have 12 years old can kill parents when parent says they must do lessons, such actions appear from time to time in many countries

so i think that mostly it is due to "have paragraph for something" than cenzorship

i also not understand why "gore" website exist and dignity of murdered victims is there abused by showing for example crouch of dead woman , victim of beheading etc.

without such "ever ready paragraph" you cannot take any action against for example men who upload , produce sick things

there was some time ago made game in which you were death-camp commandant and you were dealing with Zyklon B and shootings

without such paragraphs law enforcement has no poker in hand and can't use when need

all law regulations are made due to 1-2% of psychopaths, killers, thieves, burglars, cheaters etc.

normal honest and respecting others people dont need paragraphs

but without those paragraphs , this minority would turn majority life into horror

seeing some aggressive teen kids , people like this Minister are looking for antidotum

[Fox '09 14]

i may be incorrect but isn't dutch a 3rd world country ??

[trickster1982 10]

Left 4 dead 2 is probably the most violent game I've played, mainly due to the realistic damage models on the zombies, limbs fly off, heads explode,guts spill out of stomach wounds etc. Its a fun game, but it definitely shouldnt be played by anyone under 15 because its extremely violent & the comedy aspect of the game still doesnt detract from how brutal it is.

[vilas 477]

i may be incorrect but isn't dutch a 3rd world country ??

3rd world by definitions are countries in which there is:

- big disproportion in economy, small group of very rich, 90% of poor, no middle class,

- big criminal activity, weak law, big corruption, bribes, very dangerous streets etc.

not country which defends young people (not grown, teenagers) before demoralization

Arma is rated +16 or +17 or +18 depending of country and NONE 12 years old should play this

cause it may lead to situation when 12 years old kid kills mom, cause she said "turn off game" or kid goes with parent's pistol to shoot to other teenagers, cause was "no life" game addicted, not social-friendly like those who caused some school-shootings

too young teens won't understand some differences that grown man understand easy

young teenagers doesn't understand why killing in real is bad, so law has to have paragraph in any case if government see problems in society

Edited August 27, 2010 by vilas

[pre-Vet 10]

...to children...

is it strange the minister wants to ban 8yo children to play GTA4?

its not like anybody honors the age ratings in the Netherlands. finally teh goverment is putting a halt to this.

for what would be voilent: +16 ratings would. its not like the minister is inventing his own little system to figure out what will be banned, there are already people being paid to decide what is for children and what is not.

maybe I'm going to agressive on this but I'm getting pretty sick an tired of the Dutch population living in a democracy, provit from the system and agree with it by giving their votes but always question everything the goverment does. (thats not a generalisation, its true)

fun facts:

-Drugs are not legal in the NL.

there is an agreement about the usage and how much you may carry, its not legelized by law.

-"Dutch" is not a country, the Netherlands are as it is a unified country. the Dutch are the local nationals.

-Holland is a province, actually two, north and south.

[dm 9]

maintains that a ban on extremely violent video games is necessary, if the sale of such games to children

This is all mainly about violence in games and "children".

This is what I REALLY dont get. We end up with a blanket ban on video games because some over-zeallous idiot wants to "protect the children". Well, last time I checked, all violent video games are rated 18+, so why do we all have to suffer for the sake of the people who ARE NOT allowed to buy them anyway???????

Australia suffers from this really badly. They dont have an 18+ / R rating for games over there, because it is supposed to "protect the children". If 18+/R rated games are not allowed to be sold to people under the age of 18, then how can it possibly be harming the children?

Talk about shutting the gate after the horse has bolted/cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

[vilas 477]

cause it maybe touches wrongly age-rating ?

if someone rates game +7 and in this game you are terrorist or bandit who shoot to hostages and beheads them, than such producer, developer is stopped

it is like with danger of smoking

it causes cancer, so grown man knows if he cares or not about his health

child not, so in case if product is dangerous and wrongly rated, than low gives possibility to stop market placement , which make developer to care about rating

this is how i see this

if shopkeepers do not care about rating , than in case of alcohol, cigarettes, dangerous products - may be punished

with games, probably there is no such paragraph , so ...

maybe he should add paragraph for "trade sell law" regulation that adds punishment for shops breaking rating on all products, not only alcohol etc. but what if developer will wrongly rate game ??? what than law can do if for example producer of sadistic game will give it +10 ?

we know companies who base on "famous name to sell any shit"

imagine company who want make money on 10yo boys by selling them "kill and rape and take the eyes of kittie" game

Edited August 27, 2010 by vilas

[Sith 0]

its not like anybody honors the age ratings in the Netherlands. finally teh goverment is putting a halt to this.

Is that Hirsch Ballin's intention though? As I mentioned ealier, there is no clear outline of what the definitions for "violence" and "banning" are in this context. Hirsch Ballin is known to be in favour of a lot of legal regulation that infringes on your rights and privacy in ways most people would find appalling. He has expressed his admiration for the way Germany's finest handle media censorship, which leads to ... what? Calls to ban all 16+ rated video game development in the nation?

How is forcing Guerilla Games, Triumph Studios and Playlogic Game Factory (their only remaining viable branch) to close shop going to stop the occasional teenage wackjob from doing what psycho wackjobs have been known to do since the dawn of mankind?

Ask yourself these questions, because as Jerry's post shows, the people vouching for this regulation refuse to approach the topic as anything more than an easy shot at unfueled baby boomer angst. If this would've been a fair attempt to enforce tighter age rating compliancy, the counter-question regarding movies (or comics, or books, or paintings) being treated by the same standards, would never be considered a "voter consensus issue".

[dm 9]

but what if developer will wrongly rate game

The developer doesnt rate the game. They have to submit it to the ESRB and/or PEGI before it can be distributed in the shops.

Really all this talk of bans and whatnot is a terrible knee-jerk "we're too stupid to enforce the rules we already have in place so we should ban it all-together!" reaction.

Sadly there are enough Helen Lovejoy retards out there that shit like this actually happens.

Cars kill 10's of 1000's of children every year, but theres no outrage to ban them. Videogames are not proven to actually do any harm, but they're evil and should be banned, right?

[Zipper5 74]

I always find people campaigning for the banning of violent video games laughable. It's too much effort and far too costly for them to actually try to invest in psychological help for those obviously in need of it, and in education for those who obviously need to recognize psychological issues people they know might have.

Not once has a violent act at the hands of someone proven to have "played games like GTA4/Postal/CS/etc." been attributed to anything other than the person having severe psychological issues. People need to be taught how to recognize and deal with these issues, rather than simply blanket-banning violent video games.

Though I must say it's rather typical of modern politics. In fact, it's rather like modern medicine too. Treat the symptoms rather than the source. :rolleyes:

[jerryhopper 286]

i forgot to say that the 'Violent games ban' is a ban for all dutch citizins. ( just to be clear)

This means that I as a 35+ man cannot buy GTA6 in dutch stores in the future.

I like the idea that kids should not play 18+ games, but maybe they should start some 'police dept' to make it happen and not prohibit 18+ playing these games.

@DM Nice example with the cars, i think i'll write a letter to the minister with that.

Edited August 27, 2010 by jerryhopper

[abs 2]

As long as they don't ban prostitution by the time I get to Amsterdam in two weeks I don't really mind.

Abs

[Serclaes 0]

What I take from the post + title is that the problem is excessive gore. On this matter I have read a sentence a long time ago, which is spot on: "Only those want gore in games, who haven't seen it in real life". And I fully agree with this. I have seen various animals being cut open and apart and I do not need chopped of limbs or 3 metes of bowel hanging out in games. In my opinion it does not serve a purpose. Seeing some blood after a hit and some on the ground (which might be required to track a wounded enemy) is fully ok, but anything more than that is pushing the limits.

If I would lean far out of the window I could even say that those who enjoy it might need help...

[pre-Vet 10]

The same thing was said about movies and games many, many times before, this is just political scare tactics, dont take it to serious.

btw, anybody remember the smoking ban in cafes?.... ;)