How good is the AI?

[guitarxe 10]

Well I've been reading dslyecxi's guide and was wondering to what extend my AI squad buddies would be able to perform in the campaign? And this talk of suppression fire... is the enemy AI 'smart' enough to be actually suppressed?

[fideco 1]

There are many interesting topics around and different mods that enhance AI.

If you use search function you will find them easily.

Cheers

[BeerHunter 0]

There are many interesting topics around and different mods that enhance AI.

If you use search function you will find them easily.

Cheers

That is so true...but..my two cents anyway..

You will get a ton a conflicting views of the AI in ArnA2 but they are far more "intelligence" in ArmA2 than any other SP game I've ever played.

Some may say they are dumber than a sack of hammers but this is far from the truth. Fact is they are more intelligent , obedient and co -operative than a lot of human players.

True , they do have some faults but BI is constantly working to improve them as well as there being various mods out there that add AI features and improve their abilities. Problems encountered in the campaigns tend to be more campaign scripting errors than AI abilities errors.

They quit often need to be micro-managed but then again , you as their leader should be responsible for their actions anyway. Some kind of voice activation software that allows you to speak the commands rather than hunt and peck in the menu makes the job a whole lot easier (search for topics on this).

I could give you tons of examples where their abilities have impressed me but best you try them yourself. You may be pleasantly surprised.;)

[guitarxe 10]

It's just that it seems when I try to play campaign I'm constantly wrestling with the AI and interface to control them. One mission we had to advance through a hostile urban environment and the entire squad just jogged right out in the middle of the road. And just now I took my squad into an APC, we came to a town where we found a hostile man in a truck, who got out, started shooting us, and my AI gunners gave absolutely zero reaction to him, even after I clearly told them to attack that man. They even kept turned out, even though I kept telling them to change state to "Danger" in the "7" menu.

I mean I know the game is probably a billion times better to play online with real players, but I want to learn it a bit in single player first. And I also can't seem to find any tactical/realistic group that doesn't have their prime time on Saturdays (I work on weekends).

[Windexglow 10]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=89970

Zeus AI - you'll need to get it through sixupdater for the latest version.

AI are no longer suicidal (let's run to the middle of a road, lay down, shoot twice, stand up run a bit closer, and shoot again), they actively seek cover when in a firefight, flank, and will even go inside buildings. I've seen them pass windows on a second floor building while sniping before.

Can't play without it.

[BeerHunter 0]

I mean I know the game is probably a billion times better to play online with real players, but I want to learn it a bit in single player first. And I also can't seem to find any tactical/realistic group that doesn't have their prime time on Saturdays (I work on weekends).

That's where you are wrong my good fellow..unless you CAN catch up to a group playing in a tactical/realistic manner , and there are some out there.

Problem then becomes server location , mods required and ping.

[guitarxe 10]

Ping makes a big difference? The only tactical group that I've found so far that doesn't play on weekends is in Euro, and I'm in Canada. I was hoping 100-150 ping wouldn't be that much of a problem, since it's just co-op against AI.

[Zipper5 74]

Ping makes no difference so long as it's not something ridiculous like 500ms. Desync values are what matters in BIS' games.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

That's where you are wrong my good fellow..unless you CAN catch up to a group playing in a tactical/realistic manner , and there are some out there.

Problem then becomes server location , mods required and ping.

Both are really fun I think.

Which is a plus with this game. You can find your neach if you just like one thing as well. Be it coop, sp, mods, pvp, cti etc.

(etc is not a game mode ;) )

Ping makes no difference so long as it's not something ridiculous like 500ms. Desync values are what matters in BIS' games.

Within reason of course.

Some times you should expect lag bullets hitting around you if you kill someone with really high ping.

Well I've been reading dslyecxi's guide and was wondering to what extend my AI squad buddies would be able to perform in the campaign? And this talk of suppression fire... is the enemy AI 'smart' enough to be actually suppressed?

You HAVE to control the AI within its limits.

Not all the orders work like expected, but many times you can manipulate the command system to get them to do what you want. In the end though you have to view them as expendable to not become to frustrated when shit dosent work.

Suppressive fire, in my experience, dosent work that well.

Ether they dont suppress, or they suppress to much, ergo wasting there ammo to fast. You can just as well tell them No target and they will shoot when they feel like. (Edit: Just of the top of my head you might wanna try supressive fire with hold fire command to prevent the ai from shooting to much...)

If you want massive fire at once try Hold fire and listen for the ai spotting enemies. Example:

My voice is a little low...

9C-AvhQEufI

Note: This was like take 5. Because most of the times my ai just killed everyone without going into auto danger, which the video is about btw.

Edited August 23, 2010 by JojoTheSlayer

[st!gar 3]

They quit often need to be micro-managed but then again , you as their leader should be responsible for their actions anyway.

No. They're grown men, whom I expect to have a minimum of a clue of what they're supposed to be doing at any given time without an express order from me.

[MengJiao 10]

No. They're grown men, whom I expect to have a minimum of a clue of what they're supposed to be doing at any given time without an express order from me.

I don't think they are really grown men in any sense, they are just entertaining aspects of a game.

I think they do okay. I've been playing in the editor a lot and after a confusing battle it is interesting to walk around and reconstruct what happened in some AI vs. AI encounters.

[guitarxe 10]

If you want massive fire at once try Hold fire and listen for the ai spotting enemies. Example:

My voice is a little low...

9C-AvhQEufI

Note: This was like take 5. Because most of the times my ai just killed everyone without going into auto danger, which the video is about btw.

Woah, that voice activated commands would be so much better for playing than constantly figuring stuff out with number keys. Does it work for Just Arma2 or do I have to have the OA expansion for it, too?

[BeerHunter 0]

Woah, that voice activated commands would be so much better for playing than constantly figuring stuff out with number keys. Does it work for Just Arma2 or do I have to have the OA expansion for it, too?

It's a stand alone program that can be configured for just about any game that uses keyboard input.

I use it not only for armA , but SH4 , MS FSX and X-Plane.

No. They're grown men, whom I expect to have a minimum of a clue of what they're supposed to be doing at any given time without an express order from me

No they are supposed to under your command and obeying your orders. This isn't a construction site where you tell someone to get in that loader and move that dirt pile.

This is supposed to be a military operation and you better know where all your men are and exactly what they are doing at all times or you're going to end up with a lot of blue on blue incidents.

Once the AI is directed (ie watch a direction , hold fire , open fire etc.) they do a fairly capable job of handling a situation.

If you're looking for "independent thinkers" (something the military spends many training hours discouraging ) then you are probably simply enjoying ArmA2 as an ordinary FPS rather than the semi-tactical/logistical game it can be.

[celery 8]

The AI are, simply put, numbskulls. Doesn't matter if they're enemies, leaders, or subordinates. There are some scripts and addons that improve their behavior but they'll always be a pain to lead or make them do what you want them to do when making missions.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

Woah, that voice activated commands would be so much better for playing than constantly figuring stuff out with number keys. Does it work for Just Arma2 or do I have to have the OA expansion for it, too?

All the command stuff works for both, but if you only have Arma 2 you cant use some of the OA only commands. Everything regarding commanding troops however is the same in both versions.

The program costs about 12 US dollars, I think, but my profile, which is hosted on there main site, see sig, is free. Also, if you just want to test it you can install the full version for free for 30 days.

There are also training missions, all the info on all the commands etc.

Trust me, once you go voice command you wont look back.

Yeah, like others have said, you can make profiles for yourself as well in any game or add commands you want to pre made profiles.

Edited August 24, 2010 by JojoTheSlayer

[Dynamic Echo 10]

The AI is, in my opinion, generally pretty good. Sometimes it will do retarded things, and sometimes the hostiles can be obscenely good for no apparent reason, but on the whole it handles things well. Just never, ever tell your men to just 'advance'. I have never seen that work, they always just get massacred.

[carlostex 38]

Sometimes i just don´t understand this game´s AI i swear. On that arrowhead mission "Jackal" when i was prone and crawling on the ground placing the satchels below the tanks, there was one soldier wherever i moved immediately went after me and stayed about 5 meters from me but never seeing me. Apparently he listens to the crawling noise but he is blind. Yes it is dark, but at that distance he should see me. i managed to place all my satchels that the objectives required ran up the higher terrain and hide behind a rock without anyone spotting me. I detonate the charges and don´t move an inch! Apparently just because i detonate the charges AI knows exactly where i am and divert patrols to my position and suppresses fire on me also. SO BEFORE I DETONATE AI IS BLIND, AFTER THE DETONATION BECOMES GOD!!!

This is what demoralises me sometime to play this games that i love so much..:cryy:

[polar bear 10]

Apparently he listens to the crawling noise but he is blind. Yes it is dark, but at that distance he should see me.

Yeah, I played that and one was trying to walk past me and got stuck on me and went around me but never saw me! At least if it walks up and kicks you it should notice you're there :)

However there's an answer to this:

SO BEFORE I DETONATE AI IS BLIND, AFTER THE DETONATION BECOMES GOD!!!

I'm going to put it in a spoiler so I don't wreck it for anybody:

There are a lot of AI's in the barracks at the end of the compound that are wearing night vision goggles. They are standing around inside so they can't see you but they come running out when all the fireworks start, and they're the ones that are nailing you. 2nd time I played through I put a few extra satchels on their barracks and killed them all. The rest of the AI's are still blind.

[carlostex 38]

@Polar Bear

That makes no sense i was hiding behind a big rock!!!! Do they also have X-RAY vision??? By the way even if i stay put behind the rock the BRDM´s will climb the hill to my position and shoot me because it seems they know exactly where i am. If someone saw me before they should have killed me by then, and not after i detonated the satchels.

This seems clear: getPos "player"

[Sirex1 10]

No. They're grown men, whom I expect to have a minimum of a clue of what they're supposed to be doing at any given time without an express order from me.

No they are supposed to under your command and obeying your orders. This isn't a construction site where you tell someone to get in that loader and move that dirt pile.

This is supposed to be a military operation and you better know where all your men are and exactly what they are doing at all times or you're going to end up with a lot of blue on blue incidents.

Once the AI is directed (ie watch a direction , hold fire , open fire etc.) they do a fairly capable job of handling a situation.

If you're looking for "independent thinkers" (something the military spends many training hours discouraging ) then you are probably simply enjoying ArmA2 as an ordinary FPS rather than the semi-tactical/logistical game it can be.

Man you are hitting alot of my nerves right now but i will try to be calm. You are only talking from your perspective, i assume you have military experience (or extensive knowledge) on US and or Brittish army. They lead their men and their whole organisation on a way called "command guidance" leadership. Some countries like Sweden and Germany operatie under "Mission-type tactics". Which in simple terms is what the poster said you quoted said, expecting ones soldiers to be grown men.

I spent 11 month training as a Mechanized soldier with mission-type tactics and we were always taught to take the initiative, take action without unnecessary consultation of your immediate chief, always work with the chief "spirit" in mind not his expressed will. This translated to that the chief gets more time to think about overall mission then micro managing grunts.

From Swedish military Officer magazine.

"In mission-type tactics the manager states the task and action rules and divides resources but leaves as much of the implementation as possible to their subordinates. Coordination is ensured by the manager’s desire and the mission’s purpose and meaning being clearly expressed. Mission-type tactics requires a management philosophy that is characterized by initiative, decision-making autonomy, individual responsibility and mutual trust between managers and staff. Mission tactics further requires high level of training and discipline… Military units are forced to act in complex dynamic situations, often under great uncertainty and time pressure. The ability to act in chaotic conditions increases the chances of achieving leadership initiative. In such situations awaiting orders can lead to the initiative being lost. Decentralized management is therefor best in these situations.â€"

A good example of mission based tactics in practice.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/cellfish/archive/2008/10/05/the-army-is-agile.aspx

Now many of you might argue that the US does in fact use some sort of mission based, well when i compare i must say that that is simply not true, and no i can't prove it to you since the people who knows that is is not the same thing are Swedish thus all my sources are Swedish which you can't read.

But i have one source from a Canadian source that support my claim that US does not truly understand or use Mission command.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_01/iss_1/CAJ_vol1.1_05_e.pdf

A qoute that differentiate US and German/Canadian/Swedish military.

"There is tacit trust up and down the chain of command and subordinates are

allowed even the extreme action of disobedience, if it will result in the ultimate goal of the superior commander.".

If movies and anything the like about US military one thing i have learned is that you have zero tolerance for disobedience and are quick to courtmarshall over disobedience.

And please for the love of god before you answer me read the whole link i posted.

Some more link about the subject:

http://pdfserve.informaworld.com/580507__783082824.pdf

http://www.ndu.edu/press/lib/images/jfq-57/vego-operationalCommanders.pdf

Now on topic i can only say that i am very happy with the AI. Most of the problem comes from either:

1. You do not know proper military tactics/battle drills.

2. You do not control the AI in the correct way.

With hold fire, stealth and the danger command you can be very effective. An AI squad on danger mode is just beautifully to look at when they are engaging. In BE Warfare my cheap 150$ AI riflemen has killed hundreds of rambo players while in danger mode.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Sirex1

[polar bear 10]

The downside of claiming it's OK to have stupid AI because you should know where your men are at all time and be telling them what to do is that only works for the player controlled AI.

What about the AI controlled enemy squad?

You know as much as I like winning, I like it to be a challenge--but not because the AI are super accurate and can shoot me in the head from across the map through a wall, but because the enemy AI appears to face the same limitations I do but uses effective tactics and effective strategies that make me work hard to win. I know it'll never be as good as a human player, but the enemy gets, the more fun the game will be.

Example of stupid AI: I came across 6-7 AI camped out inside a compound waiting to ambush me. I stepped around the corner and fired a grenade launcher at them, missed. I stepped around a corner and fired a grenade launcher at them, killed 1-2. Third time I killed them all. Why? Because they stayed clumped up in a tight group. A human squad wouldn't have been there waiting for the third grenade to arrive, probably not even waiting around for the second one.

If you ONLY play multiplayer warfare type games where every AI is controlled by a human player then sure they can have much more limited abilities and it will fall to their commander to fix them if they do something dumb, but a lot of people play ArmA single player and even in MP there are often independent NPC squads.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Polar Bear

[BeerHunter 0]

Example of stupid AI: I came across 6-7 AI camped out inside a compound waiting to ambush me. I stepped around the corner and fired a grenade launcher at them, missed. I stepped around a corner and fired a grenade launcher at them, killed 1-2. Third time I killed them all. Why? Because they stayed clumped up in a tight group. A human squad wouldn't have been there waiting for the third grenade to arrive, probably not even waiting around for the second one.

I set up a mission in the editor in which my fire team was waiting to ambush an enemy squad. Had them (the enemy) walk down the road and had my team hold fire.

When we opened up they scattered and took cover in the woods and behind stone walls (rather than dropping prone in the middle of the road). They crawled around to find a better firing position.

Ended up having to give myself a LAV-25 to be able to complete this wee little mission. :o

That's using the Zeus AI enhancement mod... really makes a difference.:cool:

But you are right in that friendly AI you can control can be more effective than the enemy AI under computer control in most cases.

Can still be quit a challenge though.

[meade95 0]

Hmm. I find friendly AI (your squad mates) to be the biggest issue with A2/OA. They are just tremendously lacking. Becoming stuck, walking into fire, terribly inaccuarte with shots (especially so if enemy elevation is slightly above or below them).

I find enemy AI to be better on average than my fellow squad AI. I am constantly having to micro manage them at all times....and even then having to put them on "hold" fire because they will run out of ammo with their terrible accuracy level at times (this is with using both Zeus and standard/default).

[Sirex1 10]

Hmm. I find friendly AI (your squad mates) to be the biggest issue with A2/OA. They are just tremendously lacking. Becoming stuck, walking into fire, terribly inaccuarte with shots (especially so if enemy elevation is slightly above or below them).

I find enemy AI to be better on average than my fellow squad AI. I am constantly having to micro manage them at all times....and even then having to put them on "hold" fire because they will run out of ammo with their terrible accuracy level at times (this is with using both Zeus and standard/default).

Are you using DANGER mode?

At which ranges (at which map) do you engage?

What ai do you have, riflemen or machingunner coh rifle scope? It makes a big difference as in irl.

[meade95 0]

Are you using DANGER mode?

At which ranges (at which map) do you engage?

What ai do you have, riflemen or machingunner coh rifle scope? It makes a big difference as in irl.

Yes. I am mostly in "Danger" mode once contact is made - So most of this happens during that Squad AI behavior setting -

It seems more so from riflemen than from MG'ers to be honest. I've watched fellow riflemen go through multiple clips trying to hit an exposed target....to where I take two or three shots (max) and take them out. These are engagements within 100-300meters (300 being max).

Elevations, (for example try and run Ops in the Naygul Valley, might be mis-spelling there). But I noticed elevations, even slight ones, cause all sorts of accuarcy issues with friendly AI (more so than with enemy AI, it seems).