Soldier protection (dev branch)

[solzenicyn 130]

Hi guys,

as you may already noticed, soldier protection feature is currently undergoing certain changes dedicated to development branch only to improve the significance of gear you're actually wearing. We're trying hard to avoid any odd or unrealistic behavior and we are continually fixing those unpleasant issues that you've stumbled upon and kindly reported to us. Our goal is to bring diversity in types, meaningful in use and certainly the most realistic in behavior of the advanced soldier protection gear, expected to be military standard in the near future of our game setting. Hopefully, you will enjoy the upcoming improvements as much as we do and of course, be welcomed to share your opinions, observations and feelings upon the subject to help us in this effort.

Thank you.

[roberthammer 582]

Good to hear

btw could you check head armour /helmets related?/ some they can take 3 rounds to make a headshot which should be with 1 shot

and units with no protection like civs should be most of times 1 shot kill with any rifle round , for the pistols 1-2 (9mm) and 1 with .45

also mainly the body armour which seems to be quite strong (5 or 6 rounds to kill with 5.56 etc)

ps - check these tickets for even more info

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5377

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=15016

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12349

Edited December 12, 2013 by RobertHammer

[armilio 14]

Hi

There are 2 topic in forum Arma3-general complaining about new damage/body protection system modified with yesterday patch

summarizing: Now is needed too much assault rifle bullets for a KO. I understand pistols, but 3-4 assault rifle bullets in chest (become 4-5 against blufor)... i don't pretend a ACE-like system, but terminator-like system neither.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169947-Enemies-have-more-quot-life-quot-after-last-update

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?168548-Damage-system-sucks-fix-needed

Superconductor say right: "Maybe this new penetration system is realistic in terms of surviveability but lack of noticeable negative consequences of wearing heavy vest and being hit makes new system feel completely unrealistic in general."

Thanks for your work and for your availability.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Armilio

[.kju 3245]

Solzenicyn can you please lay out the design goals and other context you have determined.

This would help in giving feedback both on the current state and your targets.

Edited December 12, 2013 by .kju [PvPscene]

[-Coulum- 35]

I am so glad you guys opened up this thread, it is definitely an issue that needs to be discussed. I agree with .kju.

[progamer 14]

I would like to see people being knocked down after being hit on their body armor.

[byku 13]

I would like to see people being knocked down after being hit on their body armor.

And I would not ;), it's not realistic, the bullet doesn't have such power to drop a guy to the floor and it would look silly when everyone would drop to the ground from one hit... but hit on a helmet is another story. What we need is the possibility to die from bleeding, and the amount of bleeding dependent on the hit area and how many times(FAK's would then only stop the bleeding and medic would be important)

Edited December 12, 2013 by Byku

[windies 11]

And I would not ;), it's not realistic, the bullet doesn't have such power to drop a guy to the floor and it would look silly when everyone would drop to the ground from one hit... but hit on a helmet is another story. What we need is the possibility to die from bleeding, and the amount of bleeding dependent on the hit area and how many times(FAK's would then only stop the bleeding and medic would be important)

You drop from shock/pain/surprise, not because the bullet did a Chuck Norris into your chest.

[maturin 12]

And I would not ;), it's not realistic, the bullet doesn't have such power to drop a guy to the floor and it would look silly when everyone would drop to the ground from one hit... but hit on a helmet is another story. What we need is the possibility to die from bleeding, and the amount of bleeding dependent on the hit area and how many times(FAK's would then only stop the bleeding and medic would be important)

In the real world, people usually fall down when shot. Not because of the force of impact... just because that's the typical human reaction to getting shot.

TO THE DEVS: Despite the rocky start, I think we're all on board with your new body armor feature.

But it needs to be made clear that even when headshots and helmets and vests are working perfectly, the ability of soldiers to absorb 3-4 bullets to center mass has serious consequences for gameplay. ArmA 2 was a game of one-shot kills, or at most 3. When you take that away, you run into problems that can only be solved by new, highly detailed wounding and suppression mechanics, or something the likes of TPW Fall.

The idea that non-fatal bullet hits (even those stopped by armor) should have a good chance of knocking a target down is almost universally accepted. It is the only solution that is consistently suggested by the community.

I play with TPW Fall, and this implementation SOLVES the problem of high unit survivability. AI can no longer spin around and kill me after I hit them with bullets. It is realistic and immersive to have to land multiple hits in order to incapacitate a target, and TPW Fall gives players the immersive and realistic opportunity to finish the job after their first hit (as opposed to getting unfairly killed by unbalanced AI, as in vanilla).

But that's not all. The danger of getting knocked down by incoming fire makes me FEEL much less armored and survivable, and makes me think very hard before dashing across roads under fire. In vanilla, the first bullet has almost no consequences, but with TPW Fall, everything is deadly.

[froggyluv 2136]

I like TPW Fall but wish there was a bit more variety of reactions perhaps tied to the severity of wound and perhaps even skill of unit. Falling is pretty standard reaction but I would think more so if the victim didn't realise he was in a gunfight. For instance, my best friend shot me point blank in the back with a pellet gun (the pointy kind) when I was 9 and I fell to my knees more out of shock. But if I knew I was in a gunfight fighting for my very life the kill or be killed instinct would take over and keep oneself on his feet if at all possible. Much like getting sucker punched by surprise drops people but not so much in the ring.

Varied reactions could include: stagger step, reach for wound, drop weapon, strong wince, yell or nothing if bullet passes cleanly thru.

[Bouben 3]

But that's not all. The danger of getting knocked down by incoming fire makes me FEEL much less armored and survivable, and makes me think very hard before dashing across roads under fire. In vanilla, the first bullet has almost no consequences, but with TPW Fall, everything is deadly.

Well, I can't agree. With TPW Fall, the game is much easier for me. When I get hit I immediately fall on the ground because of TPW and this behaviour saved my virtual life so many times. Not falling is actually more hardcore, because you get more bullets in your body before you manage to go prone or hide. TPW fall is an instant "take cover mechanism".

Also the TPW fall make units fall again and again and again after each shot and it can look quite stupid with multiple non-lethal hits in a fast sequence (active ragdoll as in GTA would solve it - not expecting BIS to implement it).

But I definitely agree there should be some stronger penalization for AI after they got hit (but I saw this "reality show" cop video where bank robbers with strong body armour just calmly walk and shoot on police and bullets hitting them did absolutely nothing to them - so it is not that unrealistic).

[twisted 128]

awesome work BIS, this sound promising. and i echo that you should have soldiers reacting to incoming fire for not just authenticity but gameplay feedback reasons. TPW made a good start but you guys (who hold the keys to the game) would be awesome to take it to the next level smoothly.

[froggyluv 2136]

Well, I can't agree. With TPW Fall, the game is much easier for me. When I get hit I immediately fall on the ground because of TPW and this behaviour saved my virtual life so many times. Not falling is actually more hardcore, because you get more bullets in your body before you manage to go prone or hide. TPW fall is an instant "take cover mechanism".

Have to agree here also, I usually win the gunfight after I fall as it takes enemy time to reacquire position and not that hard to fire from the downed position.

[maturin 12]

But if I knew I was in a gunfight fighting for my very life the kill or be killed instinct would take over and keep oneself on his feet if at all possible. Much like getting sucker punched by surprise drops people but not so much in the ring.

It work exactly the opposite way.

There's no aspect of either training nor instinct that tells people to remain standing when shot. In fact, if you just took a bullet, it's probably because you should have been lying down and making yourself a small target to begin with.

People know that bullets kills. People who get shot scream in pain and start bleeding everywhere and then they have to get carried away to a hospital to lie in bed recovering for months. All this knowledge will condition your response, in a situation where there is really no point in keeping your feet.

And just because you have a rational awareness that receiving a bullet wound is likely in the next few minutes, that does nothing to prepare you for the shock of actually having your flesh ripped apart. Instinct is not going to help you do anything but curl up in a ball in whimper. Same goes for logic and conditioning, even training. Only adrenaline might make you shrug it off. So there should be randomness.

Obviously I would like to see your list of varied reactions, but new animations aren't in the cards.

Not falling is actually more hardcore, because you get more bullets in your body before you manage to go prone or hide.

I don't buy it. The AI almost never lands multiple consecutive hits unless the range is so close that you're dead meat anyways.

In vanilla you can run between cover with no fear because a single hit on the way can't stop you. With TPW Fall, you're screwed. In a few very limited situations it might help you, but in the end it doesn't matter if it makes the game easier or harder, because it just makes it more realistic.

And I didn't say it made the game harder, just that it made it more intense and more fun and made me make more rational choices.

Edited December 12, 2013 by maturin

[froggyluv 2136]

All this knowledge will condition your response, in a situation where there is really no point in keeping your feet.

Except we're talking about a situation in which you also have a firearm -not a random street person being shot at. It may very well be in your best interest to immediately fire back if at all able as the alternative equals instant death. Almost any pain can be countered in this sobering realization. Much like the surfer who punches the shark in the eye/snout after just having had his favorite appendage eaten -the shock comes later.

[progamer 14]

I like TPW Fall but wish there was a bit more variety of reactions perhaps tied to the severity of wound and perhaps even skill of unit. Falling is pretty standard reaction but I would think more so if the victim didn't realise he was in a gunfight. For instance, my best friend shot me point blank in the back with a pellet gun (the pointy kind) when I was 9 and I fell to my knees more out of shock. But if I knew I was in a gunfight fighting for my very life the kill or be killed instinct would take over and keep oneself on his feet if at all possible. Much like getting sucker punched by surprise drops people but not so much in the ring.

Varied reactions could include: stagger step, reach for wound, drop weapon, strong wince, yell or nothing if bullet passes cleanly thru.

A Russian spetsnaz soldier was in combat against a terror group. A giant bug hit him and he fell over thinking that was it and he was going to die only to realize it was just a bug.

---------- Post added at 00:38 ---------- Previous post was at 00:34 ----------

This is the direction we should be trying to get in Arma 3

[

In one of these videos, the soldier gets knocked down when shot.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ProGamer

[chortles 263]

Thread falls apart due to arguments over ballistics, physiology, psychology, and "stopping power" in 5, 4, 3, 2... :rolleyes:

Solzenicyn, here's some numbers pulled by DNK regarding current damage/kill probabilities.

[progamer 14]

Thread falls apart due to arguments over ballistics, physiology, psychology, and "stopping power" in 5, 4, 3, 2... :rolleyes:

Solzenicyn, here's some numbers pulled by DNK regarding current damage/kill probabilities.

I think most people could settle on its good enough for VBS2 so it's good enough for Arma 3. We already had the weapon sway adjusted to be like VBS2 also by the way.

---------- Post added at 00:54 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------

Body armor also should not only take X amounts of bullets and then your dead. It's just stupid and in realistic. If it penetrates and kills, then so be it. But if it is not powerful enough to break the persons armor, don't let it break the armor.

[Bouben 3]

I don't buy it. The AI almost never lands multiple consecutive hits unless the range is so close that you're dead meat anyways.

Man, buy what you want but that is a truth. I don't know what your precision setting is but I am often killed from distance by enemy machinegunners and team leaders by multiple consecutive shots. Also, when you are fired upon by a group of enemies, there is a lot of bullets that can hit you. And TPW saves my life in those situations - very often.

[chortles 263]

Man, buy what you want but that is a truth. I don't know what your precision setting is but I am often killed from distance by enemy machinegunners and team leaders by multiple consecutive shots. Also, when you are fired upon by a group of enemies, there is a lot of bullets that can hit you. And TPW saves my life in those situations - very often.

I would like to inquire how you're checking that these multiple consecutive shots are coming from the same individual opposing MGs/team leaders? This sounds like a way more useful line of inquiry... no sarcasm.

[EricJ 763]

Just to add fuel to the fire (maybe) but a Soldier in my tour in Afghanistan got shot six times and actually lived.... so there's a need for "what's real" when "what's real" is depending on the person getting shot, etc. So you can walk around in an armored suit and either get taken out by one bullet or six or more (remember a guy high on PCP can take multiple shots and not die, or at least until the dope wears off....) as there are so many variables. So I think the current system is fine, you take some shots you live, you take one shot you're dead, just like real life...

[-Coulum- 35]

I think most people could settle on its good enough for VBS2 so it's good enough for Arma 3. We already had the weapon sway adjusted to be like VBS2 also by the way.

No what that video showed looked horrible and very simiar to what we have in arma 3 right now.

Body armor also should not only take X amounts of bullets and then your dead. It's just stupid and in realistic. If it penetrates and kills, then so be it. But if it is not powerful enough to break the persons armor, don't let it break the armor.

Agreed but unfortunately I think we are going to have to deal will the damage dampening that is in place now. It can still work if implemented well.

Just to add fuel to the fire (maybe) but a Soldier in my tour in Afghanistan got shot six times and actually lived.... so there's a need for "what's real" when "what's real" is depending on the person getting shot, etc. So you can walk around in an armored suit and either get taken out by one bullet or six or more (remember a guy high on PCP can take multiple shots and not die, or at least until the dope wears off....) as there are so many variables. So I think the current system is fine, you take some shots you live, you take one shot you're dead, just like real life...

Yes it is not the survivability that is the problem right now but rather the immediate reaction to being hit. That and the accuracy at which armour is depicted (ie. Helmets currently cover whole head rather than just the top)

[progamer 14]

Just to add fuel to the fire (maybe) but a Soldier in my tour in Afghanistan got shot six times and actually lived.... so there's a need for "what's real" when "what's real" is depending on the person getting shot, etc. So you can walk around in an armored suit and either get taken out by one bullet or six or more (remember a guy high on PCP can take multiple shots and not die, or at least until the dope wears off....) as there are so many variables. So I think the current system is fine, you take some shots you live, you take one shot you're dead, just like real life...

Location of the where the bullets hit and the grade of the armor are all factors. The soldier in game are also not taking drugs. The current system is really bad. Moving towards what VBS has is the best option because military groups decided it was realistic out of all the factors that exist.

---------- Post added at 01:09 ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 ----------

No what that video showed looked horrible and very simiar to what we have in arma 3 right now.

There is a better video somewhere but it would be interesting to see what VBS3 does.

[EricJ 763]

And roger, thanks for the news on VBS though.

[L3TUC3 32]

There's a lot of variables. But without a decent wounding/armor failing system the results are going to be pretty binary. Shots till death is the only interesting and easily measurable outcome of any tests at the moment.

I don't really know what effects a bullet can have on a virtual character right now other than light to severe throbbing and some bloodshot until death. Considering any character can patch himself up with the use of a FAK a wounded state is negligible.