High FPS....But: Stutter/ Input Lag/ Viewport Jitter etc

[-=seany=- 5]

With OA this seems to be back with a vengeance. Even on my own in the editor I experience it on Takistan. 60 fps but I get this input/view port stutter when panning around, more so when I move to areas of more buildings or dense foliage, BUT still my FPS is well above 50fps in these areas. So why the jitter...stutter etc?

Mouse Smoothing

Mouse smoothing appears to me to be a BandAid trying to fix a much deeper problem. On my own in the editor if I turn mouse smoothing all the way down I get bad input/screen jittering. Turning it up helps the problem a lot, almost makes it unnoticeable. BUT, the more activity that is on the screen; walking around a town or playing a mission, the effect of mouse smoothing becomes less and game feels choppy/jittery etc even though my FPS are never dropping lower than 30fps. Why can the game not have smooth input without the need for mouse smoothing? And if we do need mouse smoothing why does it loose all effectiveness when the scene become more complicated or a lot of cpu calculations are occurring(eg AI)? Remember- FPS are still high.

Max Frames

I know people will suggest to adjust this, but I have played with various values and it makes no difference, so I leave it at default.

LOD/Texture streaming

I know people will also say this is to blame. But I can tell you there is a clear difference between the two. For example; running around on your own in the editor at 60+ fps is not affected at all by streaming (maybe if it was on

Zargabad(SP?))

Us users are constantly wanting more performance increases and optimizations. But I believe it is things like this stutter at high FPS that is causing a lot of the problems and complaints that BIS cant fix. What is the point in optimizing the game and getting better FPS if playing at 60 fps feels like 17 every few seconds? The problem is that the game does run at acceptable FPS, it just FEELS much lower most of the time which I believe generates a lot of these performance issues and complaints.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What made me post this was an interesting review of the Nvidia 460 in which they used Arma2 OA as a benchmark. They clearly sum up what has been bothering me about Arma2 since it was released, but I could never quite explain. The question is, what can BIS do about it?

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/0712/nvidia_geforce_gtx_460_review/3

During our testing, we found that optimizing performance in Operation Arrowhead was less about improving framerates, and more about improving the responsiveness of controls. With high settings, we sometimes observed relatively high framerates even when there was so much input lag and choppiness that the game was simply not playable.

Framerates were admirable with both GTX 460s, but again, the raw framerate is not the most important performance characteristic for ARMA II: Operation Arrowhead. Control responsiveness can suffer when the system is overloaded, even if the reported framerates are high. This indicates that Operation Arrowhead is not particularly GPU-bound, though it is certainly demanding.

Please give you thoughts on the issue, thanks. ;)

[lee_h._oswald 0]

I remember online playing Operation Flashpoint Resistance, "Capture the Island" with tons of addons and zillions of AI units.

I played @ 9FPS but you could still hit someone with your rifle.

In ArmA/ArmAII/OA there is sometimes so much "input lag" playing alone in the editor with just 3-5 trees in your sight, you can't aim properly.

We can see that adding AA to this game affects performance in a big way. We lost 28% of our average framerate just for 2X AA.

There must be something BIS had not fixed since ArmA I up to day.

I really hope this "thing" can be found some day.

MfG Lee

[EDcase 87]

This is very strange. In the campaign I get quite low fps (27ish) but it feels smooth enough when playing and no stuttering.

I haven't had the time to do much other testing yet.

i7 920@3.6

GTX285

6Gb

Win 7-64

Nvidia and game profile "Frames render ahead"= 0 (This makes it more responsive for me)

Edited July 15, 2010 by EDcase

[MavericK96 0]

There must be something BIS had not fixed since ArmA I up to day.

I really hope this "thing" can be found some day.

MfG Lee

Yeah, it does seem like AA affects the framerate in this game a lot more than it really should.

[archsceptic. 10]

I'm getting lag and micro-stutters at 40-60fps, alternatively when fps drop to 30 the game can be smooth and flowing.

The vaunted "engine optimisations" have only given me better LOD switching on most objects apart from some trees, some trees look like they are made from plasticine until I'm about 4 virtual feet away.

Somehow I was hoping for better 'optimisations' seeing as there is far, far less vegetation and trees.

:(

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Two words - VSync.

[Leopardi 0]

I remember online playing Operation Flashpoint Resistance, "Capture the Island" with tons of addons and zillions of AI units.

I played @ 9FPS but you could still hit someone with your rifle.

In ArmA/ArmAII/OA there is sometimes so much "input lag" playing alone in the editor with just 3-5 trees in your sight, you can't aim properly.

There must be something BIS had not fixed since ArmA I up to day.

I really hope this "thing" can be found some day.

MfG Lee

The "thing" is called Vsync. :o you have to use 3rd party softwares to disable it.

[archsceptic. 10]

Sixteen words - Me personally, I already have VSync forced off through ATT with a game profile for ArmA2.

[-=seany=- 5]

I too have tested the Vsync theory and all it did was cause screen tearing, even at lower FPS than my refresh rate.

Is there anyone you can turn mouse smoothing all the way off and not get any input jittering?

[lee_h._oswald 0]

The "thing" is called Vsync. :o you have to use 3rd party softwares to disable it.

Nope, I can disable it in the NVIDIA control panel, it's disabled since OFP.

Nice try.

MfG Lee ;)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

There isn't much to work with then. Does your FPS go over 60, provided you have a 60Hz LCD?

VSync forced on with no option to disable it in a FPS game with such demands for hardware is utter s#%t.

[Dwarden 1125]

to get rid of mouse input lag the Mouse smoothing itself most of time isn't enough

in arma2.cfg / arma2oa.cfg please set

GPU_MaxFramesAhead=1;

instead of default 3;

Edited July 17, 2010 by Dwarden

[-=seany=- 5]

I have tried adjusting that value Dwarden but it doesn't seem to change anything related to the jittery input. (ps its this line GPU_MaxFramesAhead=1; to adjust :p)

Why does the game jitter so badly with mouse smoothing all the way off? Its not that I want to play with mouse smoothing off, I just find turning it off the best way to explain/show this problem.

[bono_lv 10]

Same problem. Mouse smoothing about 35-50% fixes this problem, but also introduces mouse lag. I kinda got used to it already. V-sync off, btw...

[Dwarden 1125]

GPU_MaxFramesAhead=1;

was the right one ... copied wrong line, sorry :)

---------- Post added at 23:02 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------

I have tried adjusting that value Dwarden but it doesn't seem to change anything related to the jittery input. (ps its this line GPU_MaxFramesAhead=1; to adjust :p)

Why does the game jitter so badly with mouse smoothing all the way off? Its not that I want to play with mouse smoothing off, I just find turning it off the best way to explain/show this problem.

i think the jitter is related partly to the dead zone

but full answer could be given by suma

[mcarma 19]

I experience this mouse lagginess too. I tried mouse smoothing, maximum pre-rendered frames, and ingame video settings but nothing will get rid of this problem.

It seems like the mouse does not have a high enough priority within the game and/or it doesn't poll enough.

Anyway it makes the gameplay irritating.

I believe this mouse behavior is an ingame problem which needs to be solved.

So BIS please check into this.

Nothing seems to help. Now that I tried several ingame settings the game will not play as well as it did before changing the settings.

I defaulted the settings and then set it up again the way it originally was and now the performance isn't what it was to begin with.

Edited July 18, 2010 by McArma
try ingame settings

[alan.rio 18]

GPU_MaxFramesAhead=1;

was the right one ... copied wrong line, sorry :)

---------- Post added at 23:02 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------

i think the jitter is related partly to the dead zone

but full answer could be given by suma

Any chance you could point Suma to this thread Dwarden? I'm having this issue too. Frame rate is fine, but when I move the mouse I get jumps at irregular intervals, it gets worse when I use a scope I think.

[slimSpencer 10]

to improve the jitter-problem when disabling mouse-smoothing, try to increase the USB-polling-rate to 500 or even 1000hz for your mouse. (Not officially supported with every mouse).

About the input-lag itself:

The problem improved for me when BIS introduced the possibility to disable mouse-smoothing a year(?) ago. Prerender limit was always set to 0 or 1 for me in the driver CP.

However, the problem itself still exists. It seems to occur always when GPU is stressed and CPU has nothing to do, for example when you are looking at a tree closely and there is no or only few AI on map. It is probably independent from fps, but of course you feel it more when fps are low.

Try to run gpu-z in the background (ideally on a second monitor) and have a look on gpu-usage.

Whenever fps are below ~30 and gpu-usage is 99%, you a have reduced reaction on your input.

If you now increase the CPU-stress (by adding many AI-units or increasing VD to 10.000), your framerate will drop to maybe only 15 or 20, but your GPU-load will decrease to ~70-80% and your input seems to be translated without latency.

Pls. try the above in the editor in chernarus, i always use the area around the pond "Prud". (Very nice location, btw.) :)

Conclusion:

Whenever GPU-stress is higher than CPU-stress and framerate is below 30-40, you will very likely feel input lag.

The only "solution" ist to ensure that your GPU is never used by 100%, which means, your CPU must always be the limiting factor.

Anyway, i would appreciate a technical comment from a dev.

Edited November 14, 2010 by slimSpencer

[Dwarden 1125]

i will keep eye on this

[Baz 0]

Dwarden, it appears to me that the mouse input becomes slower when FPS drops to around 20-25 compared to 40 FPS. For example using aimpoint optic view while zoomed into the forest will "lag" comparatively to using it on an open field zoomed in with an FPS of around 40. This was tested with mouse smoothing at its default level set by the game.

Similarly in CQB environment the same effect as in aiming at forest occurs. The problem is not that the FPS is around 20 or 25... The problem seems to be with the mouse speed at those frame rates in dense scenes such as CQB and forest environments.

I tested on Chernarus on Prud lake and FPS takes a significant drop when aiming into forest zoomed in. about 20 FPS of a drop compared to when looking at the open field. View distance set to 1200 and video settings of normal

[cotabucky 10]

Yes my I7 2600k was terrible with the stutter but my system did just die(as in won't even post) so that could have something to do with it lol. I got 60+ FPS and it didn't matter how low or high I changed settings.I did this battle with arma since day one with my system.My Wifes 2.6 ghz duel core has none of the issues My I7 2600k had(as in massive stutter in towns and Non open areas especially when turning towards the action)..

My friend however has no issues with the same system as my Sandybridge I7 2600k(GPU,CPU,HD).I figured it could be my wireless mouse and keyboard but nope the wired mouse and keyboard does the same thing. Tomorrow I get another CPU(i7 950) and Board(ASUS Rampage III Extreme) to try out .We will see then.I suspect most of the Horrible 08 benchmark and PMC Close quarters stuff/STUTTER to go away.Ohh and an SSD too. Fingers crossed!

Edited February 15, 2011 by cotabucky

[fifou250 10]

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

Yes my I7 2600k was terrible with the stutter but my system did just die(as in won't even post) so that could have something to do with it lol. I got 60+ FPS and it didn't matter how low or high I changed settings.I did this battle with arma since day one with my system.My Wifes 2.6 ghz duel core has none of the issues My I7 2600k had(as in massive stutter in towns and Non open areas especially when turning towards the action)..

My friend however has no issues with the same system as my Sandybridge I7 2600k(GPU,CPU,HD).I figured it could be my wireless mouse and keyboard but nope the wired mouse and keyboard does the same thing. Tomorrow I get another CPU(i7 950) and Board(ASUS Rampage III Extreme) to try out .We will see then.I suspect most of the Horrible 08 benchmark and PMC Close quarters stuff/STUTTER to go away.Ohh and an SSD too. Fingers crossed!

force the game to use 2 core tell me if there is still stutter:)

disable hyper_threading

[EasyC 10]

Hi everyone.

I'm just wondering if this is what you're all talking about?

AmqvRZ1OeiA

Running in Arma2 CO, I spawned alot of SU-34s and A-10s......fps would go down and sit at 30-31, when I put mouse smoothing on full it would alleviate some of the jerkyness, although the video seems to show it looks as if it's perfect, though in game not so much. When I turned mouse smoothing off as you can see....very noticeable jerky/stutter motion.

Also tried setting a value of 1 and 3 to Maximum pre-rendered frames in Nvidia control panel and into the Arma2 and Arma2OA cfg (GPU_MaxFramesAhead, GPU_DetectedFramesAhead) but the jerky/stutter motion remained with mouse smoothing off.

I noticed this kind of jerky motion during Warfare games originally, I'm wondering if it's a load issue or lack of load issue on the CPU because my graphics card sure doesn't get worked hard to play this game. Plus I also ran that editor test in windowed mode, and kept an eye on CPU Usage. 1 Core seemed to be doing most of the work probably average 60 - 70% whilst the other 3 were hardly even keeping above 30 - 40% of the load.

PC:

CPU - i7 2600k @ 4.5ghz

RAM - 4GB Mushkin Redline

GFX - Gigabyte GTX580

HDD - 1TB Samsung F3 & Crucial SSD C300 128GB (Arma is on the F3, I used steam mover to make junction points onto the SSD so I'm assuming it's working off the SSD)

SOUND - Xonar Essence ST

MOUSE - Logitech G5

Edited February 20, 2011 by EasyC

[cotabucky 10]

LOL!!! No ,I wish my I7 2600k had that much smoothness when it came to the stutter ;). No ,The stutter is more like a Jerking stutter making the game completely unplayable(very smooth and then all of a sudden jerky and unstable).Now My I7 950 does about the same.I have confirmed all the cores are ramping up like they should. Before I sent my I7 2600k back(when it refused to even post) It was running One core and doing the same.Before that all cores were working.

I don't know WTF is doing it for sure but I am almost 100% convinced its either my 6970 or the memory not agreeing with arma2 .Monday We will see(gtx580 and different memory on the way). I KID YOU NOT.My stutter is 100% worse than that video!! That stutter is at least consistent! The stutter I had is like very bad lag.It would jerk the screen so many feet at a time.It would make things look like the game was going to crash. Now new motherboard and CPU and the same,Don't you find that suspicious? :Oo: .In my case I believe there is something wrong with the hardware and I will find out what it is. Its down to Memory,GPU,and Powersupply that could possibly be the problem on the hardware side.Ohh and Yes I have tried the mouse smoothness ,Upping the responsiveness as well as lowering it,using defaults and using joystick only.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Hey,easyC Could you go check out the 1st PMC mission and do the same thing(pan left and right) and see if in the mission you get any bad Stutter(especially as you progress through the mission with all the explosions,etc)? Maybe run a video of the 08 benchmark for us if you have the time? I am very curious how others results are with that 08 benchmark and the PMC 1st mission. Thanks

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

force the game to use 2 core tell me if there is still stutter:)

disable hyper_threading

Between both my systems I don't believe that is it but come Monday if I don't have this fixed I will try forcing 2 cores. I believe the game is already doing this properly but I will try more to see if this helps. And so everybody knows I have tried disabling Hyperthreading on both systems and it didn't do squat. Thanks though

Edited February 20, 2011 by cotabucky

[-=seany=- 5]

Hi everyone.

I'm just wondering if this is what you're all talking about?

AmqvRZ1OeiA

Running in Arma2 CO, I spawned alot of SU-34s and A-10s......fps would go down and sit at 30-31, when I put mouse smoothing on full it would alleviate some of the jerkyness, although the video seems to show it looks as if it's perfect, though in game not so much. When I turned mouse smoothing off as you can see....very noticeable jerky/stutter motion.

Also tried setting a value of 1 and 3 to Maximum pre-rendered frames in Nvidia control panel and into the Arma2 and Arma2OA cfg (GPU_MaxFramesAhead, GPU_DetectedFramesAhead) but the jerky/stutter motion remained with mouse smoothing off.

I noticed this kind of jerky motion during Warfare games originally, I'm wondering if it's a load issue or lack of load issue on the CPU because my graphics card sure doesn't get worked hard to play this game. Plus I also ran that editor test in windowed mode, and kept an eye on CPU Usage. 1 Core seemed to be doing most of the work probably average 60 - 70% whilst the other 3 were hardly even keeping above 30 - 40% of the load.

PC:

CPU - i7 2600k @ 4.5ghz

RAM - 4GB Mushkin Redline

GFX - Gigabyte GTX580

HDD - 1TB Samsung F3 & Crucial SSD C300 128GB (Arma is on the F3, I used steam mover to make junction points onto the SSD so I'm assuming it's working off the SSD)

SOUND - Xonar Essence ST

MOUSE - Logitech G5

^ This is perfect and an exact replica of my problem, with a nice Demo video, I might add. This is the kind of stutter that originally made me make this thread. As you have seen, the weird thing is that your FPS are at 30 yet the game stutters like your FPS are in the teens. You can also see that if there are enough AI, even full mouse smoothing doesn't cure this anomaly any more.

I would love to know Suma's thoughts on why this happens. It makes the game feel like it is performing far worse than it actually is, hence lots of performance complaints on these forums.

Question is: Why, with no mouse smoothing and an FPS of thirty, do lots of AI make the game stutter like it was running in the teens? And why does it get to a point where mouse smoothing no longer works.

--------------

cotabucky: your problem sounds more like a HardDisk induced kind of stutter, if your getting big pauses.