Campaigns

[almanzo 144]

Well, I have, as so many others, been waiting for opperation arrowhead for ages, and I must say that it's very much welcomed. Alot of the features was awsome, and I really much enjoyed them... But, after a day, the campaign was over with, and I am left with a feeling that it was really just a showcase of what the game could do. (this is much better than ARMA2 though, where allmost nothing was shown to new players picking the title up for single player).

Bis, you do every aspect of the game right... The models are awsome, the new features are awsome, the graphics are awsome, everything... But I miss one thing... a good, decent campaign.

First of all, in most of the campain, you operate a rather small team against a horde of enemies. Yes, it is challenging, but it's hardly difficult and not very realistic that 4 tanks blows trough hundreds. Four special forces soliders never wipes out 30 enemies and so on.

And again, the characters are shallow, the story unengaging and it feels like a petty excuse for shooting at some baddies. There is no emotion, no fear, no thrill, no motivation except fancy gadgets and blazing guns.

Where are your mission makers? And the script writers for Operation Flashpoint, did you fire them? Operation flashpoint delievered a huge, brilliant campain with characters that resembled real people. They had fears, they got boored, they didn't like to be under the rain of fire, they became happy when they got time off... and they had compation for eachother. The whole conflict was engaging, and the characters was brilliantly written. Hell, even the briefing had a well written diary in each mission. The same thing with both expantion packs, packing hours of fantastic single player gameplay.

I know campains are not the juice of the game, but a good campain might draw someone in to the universe of ARMA. A bad one might be enough to get people off who otherwise would have experienced the enormous potential of the game! I didn't play the series multiplayer before ARMA2, and I would never have bought either ARMA 1 or ARMA 2 if it hadn't been for the brilliant campains made for operation flashpoint with expantion packs.

So please, make one decent campain for us. Where characters you play seem like people. Where the missions make sense, and you get kind of a feel of being part of a real conflict. No more "let's kick ass" characters with cheesy bad ass attitudes.

I love ARMA2, and I play multiplayer every week with MARSOC... But I really miss the old OFP campain magic. I know you have it in you, I can assure you that'll it will be worth while!

[todayskiller 10]

You know...You hit everything that I also miss, OFP was the bomb back in the day when it first came out, it was a brand new type of game (for me anyways)...With the most exciting campaign/gameplay I have ever known. The Arma 2 campaign was just bleh, Haven't bought Operation Arrowhead yet, (since it is backordered at gamestop -.-)...But I hope it is at least better then Arma 2, and gives me some excitment :).

[l mandrake 9]

+1 excellent post.

Bis, you have created an amazing, parallel world to Afghanistan. Now it's time to give us the same fear, confusion, highs and lows as those guys fighting out there. There are literally dozens of books by UK/US soldiers describing the unique horrors of that war - please read some.

"Yeehah, let's kick some ass!" may bring a few extra teenagers into the Arma word, but it won't keep them there. Good storytelling will.

[giuppo 1]

+1!

Totally agree!

I heard and waiting for an "ofp campaign like", so yes we can play several character: soldier, pilot, tank drivers... but ofp had 40 missions! Red hammer and resistance: 20 missions about!

How can we "Live" the campaign with less of 10 missions?

And as aLmAnZo said: a good campaign is the better way to learn how to use all news of the gameplay and to make discover the game to new players.

[shoaibz 0]

+1 !

I agree 200 %. OFP's campaign was a classic with no competitors at all! I really wish we could get something like that again!!!

[Tonci87 163]

OFP campaign was brilliant, Please BIS bring back the Magic

[NoRailgunner 0]

Do you really expect a great campaign from BIS? Sadly devs lost their passion and interest making good campaigns long ago. Since ArmA campaigns are more or less a tech/feature show - nice but lifeless and without good and plausible story + characters. Guess thats not easy to develop a campaign even with an alpha version of this game. Time is money...

[Undeceived 392]

+1

almanzo, you have no idea of HOW MUCH you hit the nail here, man!

This is exactly what I have been thinking since Arma 1 came out!!

I am mainly focussed on the attitude that the protagonists show:

The deepest point in my opinion was the small campaign in Queen's Gambit where I suddenly heard the main SF-character saying: "Huu. The fun just started!!"... Hello??

I really don't like this "yeah-let's-kick-some-ass" attitude!

I miss Armstrong, who had respect and fear.

I miss Viktor, who didn't want to go against the Russians at all costs. Because he knew what war was! His friends had a hard time convincing him...

I miss the ex-Spetsnaz Lukin (Red Hammer campaign) who knew that as soon as the troops hit the shelves, it would NOT be "fun just starting"... I remember so closely that moment where he told those Russian "COD-player recruits" that soon they would understand what war really is!

And this (beside all other characters in OFP) really influenced me of taking distance of such shooters as COD or MOH. Thanks for this lesson, BI! But it is sad that you were approaching the opposite with your following characters (from Arma 1 until OA).

Come on, this is not COD where all just want to get to action, where all the gameplay is only focussed on making the kids to thirsten after war!

Arma is the Operation Flashpoint CWC sequel! Where first time we experienced fear when we approached enemy positions, knowing that just one bullet could mean your instant death!

This feeling has nothing to do with "the fun just started". So please make the protagonist of your campaigns feel the same again!

Edited July 5, 2010 by Undeceived

[l mandrake 9]

Do you really expect a great campaign from BIS? Sadly devs lost their passion and interest making good campaigns long ago. Since ArmA campaigns are more or less a tech/feature show - nice but lifeless and without good and plausible story + characters. Guess thats not easy to develop a campaign even with an alpha version of this game. Time is money...

I think it just needs storytelling talent and hard work - Zipper5 created an engrossing experience in his Cobalt A2 campaign, because he cleverly created a believable 'access character' (a raw CDF recruit) through whose eyes we experience the unfolding war.

The same applies to a classic war film like Platoon - take a sheltered, naive young man and follow him down into hell, watching as his morals and values are first tested, then shattered and ultimately reconstructed by the amoral chaos all around him.

OFP's campaign used this formula to great success - now we desperately need the Afghan, (sorry Takistan) version COME ON BIS!

[Bavator 8]

OFP campaign was brilliant, Please BIS bring back the Magic

Hm, a lot of the 'magic' is lost due to the nature of asymmetric warfare imo.

In OFP all we had to fight the enemy was a M16 with iron sights (and a compass ^^), now we have SCARs, TI, UAVs, ULBs and so on.

I´d love to see a Restistance 2.0 campaign for OA, though, e.g. western forces have to withdraw due to whatever political reasons, a couple of soldiers refuse to go because they really want to help the locals and are trying to set up an organised guerilla warfare against the regime.

I miss the ex-Spetsnaz Lukin (Red Hammer campaign) who knew that as soon as the troops hit the shelves, it would NOT be "fun just starting"... I remember so closely that moment where he told those Russian "COD-player recruits" that soon they would understand what war really is!

YESSSS! I loved that scene, it created a great atmosphere (en par with the prologue of Resistance imho),

Edited July 5, 2010 by malibu.stacey

[l mandrake 9]

Hm, a lot of the 'magic' is lost due to the nature of asymmetric warfare imo.

In OFP all we had to fight the enemy was a M16 with iron sights (and a compass ^^), now we have SCARs, TI, UAVs, ULBs and so on.

I´d love to see a Restistance 2.0 campaign for OA, though, e.g. western forces have to withdraw due to whatever political reasons, a couple of soldiers refuse to go because they really want to help the locals and are trying to set up a organised guerilla warfare against the regime.

But there's also great dramatic potential in asymmetric warfare - remember Vietnam?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Mandrake5

[Undeceived 392]

I´d love to see a Restistance 2.0 campaign for OA, though, e.g. western forces have to withdraw due to whatever political reasons, a couple of soldiers refuse to go because they really want to help the locals and are trying to set up an organised guerilla warfare against the regime.

Well, Arma 2 is exact the same, but it is still not the same as OFP (if you look at the characters).

Edited July 5, 2010 by Undeceived

[Bavator 8]

O.o

I haven´t played the A2 campaign, tbh. Looks like I missed something. :o

[Undeceived 392]

The problem with the A2 campaign was that sooner or later everything turned into Warfare style, which caused the focus on single characters to get lost.

[connos 10]

I never played OFP but what draw me in Arma 2 was the campaign. I really enjoy it. EW campaign was really good. Finish it 5 times so far.

[Murphe 0]

Well, Arma 2 is exact the same, but it is still not the same as OFP (atmosphere-wise spoken).

Agreed. All the missions seem to be on a large scale now. One of the missions that stands out for me from OFP was the one where you go off with 3 other guys in a jeep while the rest build the camp. All it was was 4 of you up against 4 or 5 spetznaz in a forest. I remember that being as tense as the mission where your first left on your own.

It's missions like that, the quiter ones, that give a chance to develop the characters. Or even just the build-up before a big mission, in the base or on the way to it.

But there's also great dramatic potential in asymmetric warfare

Thats what I was hoping for with with OA. We had that in resistance on the guerilla side, I thought we would see it from the U.S. side in OA. Don't get me wrong I'm enjoying the campaign so far, it's just the concept of fighting against guerilla warfare seemed to have interesting potential. Maybe it was considered a little real given the current situation in Afganistan to do though.

[NoRailgunner 0]

it just needs storytelling talent and hard work

Do you know how many customers in general do play SP/MP campaigns compared to those who are playing (only) MP missions?

If game devs would make + test their great campaigns they would probably see more issues and bugs. ;)

BIS are developing complex sandboxes and "sand molds" (without proper documentation/tutorials) - not campaign/mission oriented games. Without community's blood, sweat and tears BIS would long gone or making other games. Thought, perhaps it would have been more interesting with a real competitor...

[nettrucker 142]

I couldn't agree more with you guys. The OFP campaigns were simply outstanding. Armed Assault campaigns were really weak in comparison. I liked the ArmA II campaign until the warfare missions started. I can't help it but I dislike warfare missions in a single player campaign. EW was a lot better in my opinion. Haven't finished Arrowhead so far. It is better than ArmA II but it doesn't stand the comparision to the OFP campaigns. what is missing is a character with whom you can identify yourself.

As matter of fact I liked Zipper's campaign, great story telling.

Also, the ufficial campaigns are getting more shorter and shorter. I love a long single player campaign with a good story, but I guess this is just a memory from the past. Seems to be too much effort and time consuming.:( I really don't know how many BIS developer are actually involved with the campaign and mission making.

Now it seems tha OA campaign is short too and for me personally it's disappointing I hoped for a good campaign at the same level as CWC.:(

Just my 2 cents.

Kind regards

BIS are developing complex sandboxes and "sand molds" (without proper documentation/tutorials) - not campaign/mission oriented games.

I strongly disagree with that statement, when CWC was made MP was still in its baby shoes. Furthermore I believe that there are still a lot of people who are not only playing MP and are still interested in a good single player experience.

Edited July 5, 2010 by nettrucker

[Undeceived 392]

I strongly disagree with that statement, when CWC was made MP was still in its baby shoes. Furthermore I believe that there are still a lot of people who are not only playing MP and are still interested in a good single player experience.

You are right with this. :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Sorry but dont compare good old OFP memories with actual developments. :)

Dont get stucked into nostalgia - today most people are interested playing missions/campaigns in MP. SP missions/campaigns are only interesting if they are really great and very well designed.

Since Armed Assault its clear that BIS has more problems to get a smooth game performance first before fixing gameplay + AI issues and bugs - missions/campaigns do have a very low priority.

[nettrucker 142]

Sorry but dont compare good old OFP memories with actual developments. :)

Dont get stucked into nostalgia - today most people are interested playing missions/campaigns in MP. SP missions/campaigns are only interesting if they are really great and very well designed.

Since Armed Assault its clear that BIS has more problems to get a smooth game performance first before fixing gameplay + AI issues and bugs - missions/campaigns do have a very low priority.

It is true that MP in games has grown constantly over the years due to technological development, no doubt about that. I doubt that the majority of customers who bought BIS games did it only for MP reason. I believe that BIS would be bankrupt by now. How many people are playing MP seen all the hassle and difficulties, just to play an hour online, a player must undergo. Not to mention the MOD- Addon handling problems.

RL issues are preventing me from MP and there are a lot of people in the same situation as me. If you want a decent MP experience you need to join a squad and that means time and dedication that I don't have at disposal unfortunately. Had a brief experience on CF server and it was such a great fun. I really loved it but I can play only occasionally.

I personally believe a good SP experience would attract a whole lot of new potential customers and I believe furthermore that there are a lot of people which prefer to play SP rather than MP for different reasons.

I loved the MP aspect of ArmA but the SP is as much important as the MP imho.

Be aware that in small towns people have still very slow Internet connections comparing to someone who lives in a big city, which prevents those people from playing online for certain.

kind regards:)

Edited July 5, 2010 by nettrucker
added content

[Murphe 0]

As far as new customers are concerned, it's the single player that will influence how much time their willing to put in to suss out the multiplayer situation. However I do think to OA campaign is good enough to hold peoples interest. It just could be better.

Be aware that in small towns people have still very slow Internet connections comparing to someone who lives in a big city, which prevents those people from playing online for certain.

kind regards:)

True, my internet is shite but just good enough for online. But in OFP it was literally years before I played online. So single player was all I had and OFP was a revolution in that department. I can't remember how many times I played that campaign and Resistance, but I can Arma and Queens Gambit. Once. But I was already sucked in so I kept playing online, although a lot less. With Arma's weak campaign and Arma 2 buggy beginning, I believe a lot of people will have been turned away from the series based solely on the campaign.

[turin turambar 0]

Again, +1.

Ofp campaign was long, varied, well written, and all that was well paced. You had from small infantry skirmishes to epic invasions, to defeats where you had to run away, to help resitance, to being paradroped, to having to escape looking at the night sky searching the North, to searching a supply base to sabotage looking after supply convoys, etc. The characters were realistic, the briefings were well done, there was some well placed plot twists, there was a bit of human drama showing the impact of war in professional and civilians alike, etc etc.

A Bohemia developer said me the other day that Arma 2 is like a toybox to play with. A pity, i liked their games more when they bringed a game already done AND a toybox, instead of only the toybox.

[SASrecon 0]

...long, varied, well written, and all that was well paced. You had from small infantry skirmishes to epic invasions, to defeats where you had to run away, to help resitance, to being paradroped, to having to escape looking at the night sky searching the North, to searching a supply base to sabotage looking after supply convoys, etc.

This is exactly what most people want :) shame BIS didn't do it in OA..

[almanzo 144]

It seems I finaly found the words I was looking for. This is something that has bugged me for a long time with new ARMA games. I never ever played OFP more than a few hours multiplayer... I must have played several hundred, or maybe thousand hours of OFP single player.

ARMA made me leave BI, I tried the campaign at a friend and didn't even play trough. I never got to experience what ARMA had to offer becouse of the campaign. I bought queens gambit AFTER arma 2 becouse of that.

Arma 2 and OA are games that requires alot from the player in terms of patience, practise and troubleshooting to get running smoothly. Alot of potential costumers can get put off by the campaign(s), and becouse of that, never really discover the potential in ARMA2. The OA campaign doess a better job in that respect than the original ARMA 2 campain, but it isn't even close to OFP.

Every year, I play through OFP, Resistance or red hammer. OFP is amongst one of the games that never die on my hard drive. It's among the best written campains ever. Both expention packs was worth twise as much as I payed for the campains alone.

A well written campain would get more people to the scene. Those few people who like hard ass soliders spitting "kick ass time"-lines is not really ARMA style players anyhow. People who like ARMA cheerish the realism, slow pace and attention to detail that this lovely game has. New potential ARMA players is more likely to be put off than drawn into the ARMA universe through the campain. This I find sad...