FLIR contrast and square TWS

[n00b1 10]

I have a few issues with some of the thermal weapon sights on the game - namely that the contrast between objects is unrealistically low. I'm not talking about "hot" vs. "cold" per se, I am talking about objects in between - new generation thermal weapon sights are extremely sensitive and display much more distinct differences between different objects with slightly different thermal signatures. This isn't captured very well on Arrowhead.

Secondly - why does the image from a TWS have a square border. The scope and eyepiece is curved, not square.

Other than this - the thermal imaging is an excellent addition to the game and it certainly serves its purpose.

[Steakslim 1]

curved eyepieces do not = round view especially when the image is digitally projected.

[n00b1 10]

You are correct that some optics have a square screen which you could see if your eyes are pressed against the eyepiece. With the AN/PAS-13D, though, I am pretty sure the image is curved (the British equivilent TWS on the L115A3 doesn't have a square image if you look down it). The image fills a circular shape on the front eyepiece.

Edited July 1, 2010 by n00b1

[Big Dawg KS 6]

This seems like something you can easily change with a new texture/model for the optics overlay

[nodunit 397]

Do you mean coloration like this? http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/Arrowhead/ArrowheadVideo1.html

That's not to say OA's flir is innacurate though http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/05_Jan/ces-2009-preview-flir-helps-bmws-detect-pedestrians.jpg

alternatively the FLIR can be changed by adjusting the textures of the objects, just keep in mind to not use white as that is the part that heats up, the more neutral colors remain the same however...you'll need the most recent cpbo and textview 2 and a paint editing program if you plan on doing this (filename is under _ti_

Edited July 4, 2010 by NodUnit

[TinManNFO 10]

I have a few issues with some of the thermal weapon sights on the game - namely that the contrast between objects is unrealistically low. I'm not talking about "hot" vs. "cold" per se, I am talking about objects in between - new generation thermal weapon sights are extremely sensitive and display much more distinct differences between different objects with slightly different thermal signatures. This isn't captured very well on Arrowhead.

I haven't been able to mess with the game much (my brother got his OA copy, and I've been trying it out on his computer, while mine should come in the mail tomorrow), but so far I haven't observed that BIS has modeled the thermal properties of the different materials of the environment and solar heating and what not. For example, a car made of metal or a rock would heat up faster in the sun than leaves of most plants and grass, so you should see a car as being pretty hot in a grassy field even if it's engine isn't running; if it were cloudy, this would be less pronounced, and then you'd have thermal crossover in the evening and the opposite stuff at night, etc., etc.

Secondly - why does the image from a TWS have a square border. The scope and eyepiece is curved, not square.

I messed with an AN/PAS-13B (one of the older big chunky ones) a little when I was in Iraq a few years back, and I'm pretty sure it had a rectangular border because you're basically looking at a small display screen inside it. One thing that was neat was that you could switch reticles between different types of weapons using the various mode and +/- buttons.

alternatively the FLIR can be changed by adjusting the textures of the objects, just keep in mind to not use white as that is the part that heats up, the more neutral colors remain the same however...you'll need the most recent cpbo and textview 2 and a paint editing program if you plan on doing this (filename is under _ti_

I actually wouldn't mind trying to add the TI textures for some of the ArmA 2 units and weapons, as I'm pretty proficient with the paint programs that I use, but I haven't really tried to do much modding with games in general so far and haven't tried to mess with any SDKs or such. It doesn't seem like it should be that hard fundamentally if you can get the original texture file; you'd just have to almost completely desaturate it (make it gray), reduce the contrast, and then just start sort of "spraying" white or black on areas that would be hotter or colder, respectively.

[nodunit 397]

pardon the bump but if you want to try it then this may help you.

http://developer.vbs2.com/onlinehelp/Content/Adding_Models/How_to/AMHT_Thermal_Imaging_How.htm

http://developer.vbs2.com/onlinehelp/Content/Adding_Models/How_to/AMHT_Thermal_Imaging.htm

I would also recommend having a look at some of the unit configs from OA to see what simarilties are found.

[n00b1 10]

Thanks for all of the replies guys. It would be awesome if somebody could model the thermals in this way. Sounds like a fair bit of work and is quite beyond me really. :p

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I think the sights are far too useful actually. Looking at todays weather forecast, temperatures around 37°C (about 100°F?) are not uncommon this time of year, during the day mind you. I've tried "cycling the time" a little in OA and could only see no variations in the "background heat", lessening the rather extreme contrasts we get in the game. Two times a day a TI device suffers from so called "crossover", where the reduced contrast render them almost useless.

So I wish the "ambient background temperature" would be able to change according to weather (doesn't have to be delayed even), time of day (sun elevation), location on earth (also sun elevation), "typical climate" (whatever that might be), and date (seasons). Does this "ambient background temperature" setting exist in the config?

FLIR, as good as it is, doesn't have many counters in Arma, and not having any bad side effects doesn't help either.

[galzohar 31]

Well, IRL the downside is availability and weight of the sight on your weapon. No other weapon in Arma 2 has any of those disadvantages simulated (well availability can be simulated by mission maker but weight cannot), so this is a much bigger problem than just a TWS-specific problem. ACE stamina system is of course meaningless here, because the disadvantage isn't because you need to haul ass more due to heavier gear, but rather more about it being (much) harder to aim with a heavier weapon.

[frederf 0]

What are the cooling times on these small-package IR optics? The Javelin CLU takes a few minutes and it's huge with all manner of heavy duty batteries. The Javelin missile itself uses a disposable coolant bottle to achieve ~10 sec optics temperature. The little PVS optic small enough to fit on a rifle has got be slower than a light switch.

[max power 21]

Also I think that the resolution and clarity of the images might be a bit much. I think if you more heavily post process the signal with noise and pixelation it would cause a more significant drawback for these systems. Also, I think changing them to the more realistic, easy-on-the-eyes green screen instead of of the video playback black-and-white would further make the systems harder to use.

[frederf 0]

I think monochrome color is not up to our preference from realism standpoint. All US military use B&W or W&B infrared viewing (except as red when in combined NVG/IR but pure IR has always been grayscale.)

It probably is some sort of standard to make sure that soldiers by-habit associate the color with the technology with no confusion.

[max power 21]

I think monochrome color is not up to our preference from realism standpoint. All US military use B&W or W&B infrared viewing (except as red when in combined NVG/IR but pure IR has always been grayscale.)

It probably is some sort of standard to make sure that soldiers by-habit associate the color with the technology with no confusion.

I'm pretty sure the monitors in the vehicles show green. I think the guncam tapes just output black and white. It is definitely green in the bradley and abrams, at any rate.

Here's the abrams:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1250278074

You can find the bradley video on that site to but it has people getting shot in it so I can't link to it.

I think it was on this forum, I read someone arguing the difficulties faced by AH-64 pilots in identifying weapons in the hands of people vs. cameras and other objects. I think the argument was that since the pilot or gunner is looking at a 4 inch screen with a green output, accidents are bound to happen. It's something that sticks out in my memory, at any rate.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Max Power

[CarlGustaffa 4]

So a 4" shaky monitor with limited resolution is not as good as my 24" rock steady HD monitor? Real life is just so unfair...

[galzohar 31]

You guys are talking about the minor issues of the FLIR... The major issue is that people just glow as if someone poured a ton of chemlight juice all over them. Real thermal vision don't look like that... Also buildings and other objects are actually a lot easier to notice IRL compared to in-game, as the game sets very very low contrast on anything that isn't "warm", while in reality different objects have very different tempratures even if they aren't as hot as a human, a running engine or a firing cannon.

[Defunkt 431]

Yeah, in terms of getting immersed in the game world the old faux FLIR felt a lot more like the real thing to me, the background of the proper system is just too uniformly cool/neutral/dk.grey. I wish we could have something like the hi-contrast monochrome PPFX background with those objects provided for in the new system overlaid on top of that.

[galzohar 31]

The new FLIR is still better though since the old FLIR didn't look any different than the regular view in black and white (since that is exactly what it was). There is a big difference between a simple black and white image to an image that at least tries to look like it has something to do with heat, even if the attempt is as poor as the one we have now.

In short, new FLIR is a huge improvement but it's still quite bad.

[Defunkt 431]

For all I know it's futile I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I disagree. While it had little or no sense underlying it, it both looked more authentic (faux versions can look vastly more like THIS than the proper one can) and included an appropriate degree of uncertainty making it both useful (to a point) and flawed where the proper one entertains no uncertainty at all, you just cannot miss a target lit up bright white on a plain black background.

[max power 21]

The new FLIR is still better though since the old FLIR didn't look any different than the regular view in black and white (since that is exactly what it was). There is a big difference between a simple black and white image to an image that at least tries to look like it has something to do with heat, even if the attempt is as poor as the one we have now.

In short, new FLIR is a huge improvement but it's still quite bad.

I disagree that it's bad. I think it's very good. But, in order to be 100 percent realistic, it requires every object on T-stan to have dynamic heat textures. I just don't see that happening ever.

[wolf359 19]

Have a look at the Farnborough Airshow coverage from Flightglobal. They brought the excellent FLIR Star Safire HD Camera System mounted on a hydraulic mast to stream the airshow to their website this week.

http://www.flightglobal.com/air-shows/farnborough/flying/

Here is todays airshow (almost 3h):

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8378674

you can see the following aircraft in alternating optical and thermal view:

Airbus Military A400M 13:30 take off in the video 00:20:30

Airbus A380 13:39

The Blades 13:49

BAE Eurofighter Typhoon 14:10

Alenia Aermacchi M-346 14:25

Lockheed Martin C-130J 14:35

Lockheed Martin F-16 14:42

Sentinel R1 14:49

Red Devils 14:53

Lockheed Martin F-22 15:03

Boeing F/A-18 15:18

Sukhoi SuperJet 100 15:26

Antonov An-158 15:36

Hurricane 15:43

RAF Eurofighter Typhoon 15:51

[frederf 0]

I'm pretty sure the monitors in the vehicles show green. I think the guncam tapes just output black and white. It is definitely green in the bradley and abrams, at any rate.

Here's the abrams:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1250278074

You can find the bradley video on that site to but it has people getting shot in it so I can't link to it.

I think it was on this forum, I read someone arguing the difficulties faced by AH-64 pilots in identifying weapons in the hands of people vs. cameras and other objects. I think the argument was that since the pilot or gunner is looking at a 4 inch screen with a green output, accidents are bound to happen. It's something that sticks out in my memory, at any rate.

That looks like a handicam with "night mode" or something. I don't know about Abrams and such but the Stryker video is black and white. I think only the RV have thermal though and I believe that's black and white as well.

[galzohar 31]

I disagree that it's bad. I think it's very good. But, in order to be 100 percent realistic, it requires every object on T-stan to have dynamic heat textures. I just don't see that happening ever.

Doesn't have to be dynamic, but yes every object needs to have a thermal-specific texture, or else you'll never really get anything that looks anywhere near "quality thermal vision". Also, windows/doors need to be possible to see through. Especially open windows/doors...

[frederf 0]

Ok, but give me anything a grunt of less than E-6 grade is going to get their hands on. All handheld stuff and ground vehicles of less than 30 tons.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Force some negatives down our throat, that's basically all I'm asking:

* Add TV noise during daytime (not possible to turn off by deactivating post processing). Makes it less attractive during the day, as they are in real life, but for reasons that cannot be simulated.

* A module which reacts to time of day, seasons, and weather, and island latitude. Module will then "offset" that "low contrasty grey area" with no TI maps so that less total dynamic contrast will be obtained during a hot day in the summer. Buildings, roads etc holding body temperatures in Taki summer; fully possibly if you ask me.

* Maybe forced reduced "3D resolution" while in sight (faux pixel doubling, maybe with blur)? Makes it less easy to pick out details. In game it might feel a bit artificial. In real life it could happen due to background radiation causing "shimmering". Other methods to produce this shimmering effect?

* And, how do we deal with rain? I'm a bit lost at this one, as I have no idea how the image would look like while raining.

* What are the zoom ranges we have in the game for i.e. AH64 FLIR compared to the real thing? Is the real thing fully optical zoom. Does TI/TWS have zoom and/or this level of HD clarity we have in the game?

Basically I'm very happy with how the "TI affected" parts work. The problem is how well it separates from the "non TI affected" parts, under all conditions. But I guess we all realize we're not going to see "TI on everything", so we need to find some artificial ways to "impose problems" that most can live with.

Edited July 20, 2010 by CarlGustaffa