ugly defacing of Polish victims in Belgian press

[celery 8]

To the people who think there's some kind of paradox or hypocrisy going on:

There isn't. Vilas doesn't want freedom of speech and he wants the artist and his family dead. However, freedom of speech and press are important values in the western world so his opinions get criticized. Vilas has the right to say these things without pre-release censoring but it doesn't mean that the things he says aren't near-sighted and outright vicious. And others have the right to criticize them.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Celery

[max power 21]

Hypocrisy much?

We will not allow you to complain about people saying stupid things - there is something called freedom of speech. Now shut up or get banned. Classic.

There is a difference between free speech in a public venue and free speech in a private forum. We don't have 'free speech' here. They have the right to ban you for whatever. They own this place. It is their 'property'. They can force rowdies to leave and prevent them from coming in whenever.

[InqWiper 0]

@ Vilas, some of the People that died in the Plane Crash fought so that you have Freedom of Speech in Poland now. Cuse you didn´t have it in the old Soviet Regime. So why do you say that Freedom of Speech should be limited? By saying that you are disrespecting the Things those People stand for

Are you saying freedom of speech should be unlimited? Anyone should be allowed to say anything?

There is a difference between free speech in a public venue and free speech in a private forum. We don't have 'free speech' here. They have the right to ban you for whatever. They own this place. It is their 'property'. They can force rowdies to leave and prevent them from coming in whenever.

Sure they can, and Im not arguing with that, but you must see the irony in someone telling another person that he is not allowed to tell others what they cant say because of "free speech".

[Deadfast 43]

Hypocrisy much?

We will not allow you to complain about people saying stupid things - there is something called freedom of speech. Now shut up or get banned. Classic.

I don't recall Wolle threatening to kill Vilas.

The problem is not that Vilas disagrees with the sketch (I'm not particularly fond of it either), it's the way he makes it known.

[sudayev 27]

I can imagine the reaction of the Jewish or Muslim diaspora if someone would offend them in very similar way. They would scratch this guys eyes out or stone him to death for posting such distasteful in this very moment. Defintely freedom of speech isnt about making fun of the nations tragedy, if someone thinks that it is fun - is in grave mistake.

*

Rest in Peace - Peter Steele (Petrus Ratajczyk 1962 – 2010), leader of Type O Negative. He had a great dose of Polish blood in him. His heart failed. Another tragedy..

[Deadfast 43]

I can imagine the reaction of the Jewish or Muslim diaspora if someone would offend them in very similar way.

And it would make me facepalm just as much.

[vilas 477]

yes, if you say "freedom of speech" than what if someone will say:

- Jewish people were in SS, and they murdered Americans in Auschitz ?

- people who were kept in camps during WW2 very cared about siluete thats why they were so skinned

- people that were jumping from WTC should buy themselves parashoots and not moan that there was too hot for air-conditioning

still you like freedom of speech ??

cause i think such think cannot be printed by newspapers

crazy guy in mentally ill hospital can say this, newspaper who shapes people view - can't

those examples maybe show you that "freedom" is not "virtue" in itself when it is misused (without control)

many things are limited, speed, alcohol in blood when you drive, other people property , and ... other people feelings in law in many countries

such things that i wrote (not thinking this way) maybe show you how such "eagle .. " is taken by people here and not only here

this could be painted by crazy guy in his house, but not in newspaper that is issued to society

freedom of speech should be limited in some cases, such cases as :

- teaching and telling big lies (for example we know who murdered whom in Auschwitz, we know that SS was not made of French, Mongolians, Iraqis, Americans, Czechs, Poles)

spreading not-truth things can cause very big problems in heads of people

- hurting feelings after victims (not showing in internet for example photos of raped and killed girl with comment "hehehe, it was not her day" (i know few such sick websites exist), not making fun of people who died)

freedom of speech cannot be unlimited, cause imagine someone comes to your home , to your mother and says "suck my ***"

or next day in newspaper you see guy spreading news "his mother was playing in porno movies , she was whore and doing it for the money with dogs"

is it freedom of speech unlimited ???

Edited April 15, 2010 by vilas

[max power 21]

Vilas, the Freedom of Speech is the freedom to shock by poor taste. All of those things you say there are not morally acceptable but you certainly have the right to say. Let us accept this and move on.

[vilas 477]

if something is morally not acceptable, why it is allowed ?

murdering, stealing is also morally unacceptable , false statement in court is also punished even 3 years in prison

so why such act on defacing victims : not get journalists into prison for defacing someones feelings , not pay milion Euro fee for families of victims , i hope someone will sue them, i wait what Polish gov. will do

at least they should be sentenced for big money to familes of victims

[InqWiper 0]

I don't recall Wolle threatening to kill Vilas.

The problem is not that Vilas disagrees with the sketch (I'm not particularly fond of it either), it's the way he makes it known.

I don't recall Vilas threatening to kill anyone.

this who made this picture should be dead and his family should suffer as families of 96 people

The point is still that W0lle is trying to defend freedom of speech by silencing people. Much like defending democracy by banning undemocratic parties.

I do think it was a silly thing for Vilas to say especially because he said the family of the idiot should suffer and not just the idiot. Im sure he can see that it was a bit off and Im sure everyone else can too.

And Im not sure the "idiot" is actually an idiot because I dont know in what fashion the image was published. If it was the way Vilas interpreted it I think it was very idiotic and I am not sure if I think it should be legal or not. There are laws against inciting riots and some forms of racist bullshit.

I think it should be illegal for newspapers to publish for example a picture of muhammed as a dog with the text "haha look muhammed is a dog, thats some funny shit". But if the image comes with another text like "this picture has angered muslims across the world and forced the creator to go underground after numerous death threats" then I think its ok.

I dont think lies or intentional aggrovation should be allowed. Obviously I dont think anyone should be killed for it but I think the newspapers should get different fines depending on how extreme the case is.

[max power 21]

if something is morally not acceptable, why it is allowed ?

murdering, stealing is also morally unacceptable , false statement in court is also punished even 3 years in prison

so why such act on defacing victims : not get journalists into prison for defacing someones feelings , not pay milion Euro fee for families of victims , i hope someone will sue them, i wait what Polish gov. will do

at least they should be sentenced for big money to familes of victims

Because morality is not objective.

[DaVca 0]

It's just dark humor. Deal with it, for crying out loud. It has been part of human culture for ages and it can help us to deal with taboo like death (in this case). The only threat to existence of our culture and civilization are people wishing death to those who just have different taste in humor.

Edited April 15, 2010 by DaVca

[max power 21]

For every person who posts moral outrage, there is another who will post 'just deal with it' as if the only measure of a man in this world is how much shit he's willing to swallow with aloof indifference.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Nationalism; get on with the times or you will be wiped out, OP.

[DaVca 0]

Let’s just ban dark humor, porn, swearing, action movies and videogames, as all those things offend someone. What do you think is more dangerous for society? Someone who made a joke (pretty funny in my eyes), or someone who said (and I quote): “this who made this picture should be dead and his family should suffer as families of 96 people“

[vilas 477]

(pretty funny in my eyes),

pretty funny joke ???????????

you MOTHERFUCKER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[InqWiper 0]

It's just dark humor. Deal with it, for crying out loud. It has been part of human culture for ages and it can help us to deal with taboo like death (in this case). The only threat to existence of our culture and civilization are people wishing death to those who just have different taste in humor.

Perhaps people can find a way to deal with it without making it alot worse for others? Respect and compassion?

I make some really stupid jokes together with friends that I would not make with people I dont know. I know my friends will not be offended and that they understand that I am not serious. I respect the fact that other people may not share my sense of humor and may not understand that its a joke. I think its more important to respect other peoples feelings than holding on so strongly to your right to say stupid things. Rights that are abused tend to be removed.

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

Let’s just ban dark humor, porn, swearing, action movies and videogames, as all those things offend someone. What do you think is more dangerous for society? Someone who made a joke (pretty funny in my eyes), or someone who said (and I quote): “this who made this picture should be dead and his family should suffer as families of 96 people“

Maybe you should think about that for a while. One made someone furious enough to wish death and the other did not.

[max power 21]

Let’s just ban dark humor, porn, swearing, action movies and videogames, as all those things offend someone. What do you think is more dangerous for society? Someone who made a joke (pretty funny in my eyes), or someone who said (and I quote): “this who made this picture should be dead and his family should suffer as families of 96 people“

Black and white thinking, DaVca.

It's not necessary to ban either. It is up to the individual to raise issue with either, which is everyone's right to do so.

Talking about killing people is not wrong, I don't think. Lots of people say, "I want to kill that motherfucker". People talk trash all of the time. However, actually doing it is very wrong, and having said it before hand can be used as evidence to help identify and prosecute the murderer.

Laughing at people dying is just in poor taste in general, but I guess people are free to be scum.

[Serclaes 0]

Maybe you should think about that for a while. One made someone furious enough to wish death and the other did not.

So you want to determine the illegality of things said by the amount of deathwishes?

[vilas 477]

mater of nerves when someone spit at nation during tragedy

of course now i took back my words about killing guys :)

of course in real i would not killed them and i think legal fee they should pay for victims families, even if in first seconds it is first thought of man who see defacing national tragedy

but when you see such "joke" during nation tragedy, it boils blood,

but fee against journalists should be

96 people died, tens of thousands of people wait 10 hours queue to light candle, to put flower... and someone jokes at death of people ???

i wonder how you would react if this happen to your nation

this "joke" was something that boiled my blood like never before

and i cannot imagine that someone could not understand that "from such things human cannot joke"

when people die in accident (no mater this, WTF, Beslan, Dubrovka - noone can laugh)

noone can find WTC, Auschwitz, Dubrovka, Beslan or even plane crash in Russia, China, India, Austria, Germany - funny

funny can be politician decision, funny can be person but funny can't be death of nearly 100 people

but i even seen in internet website where they were joking of disabled people

i know 2 such "gore" services kept on some servers

can you imagine website which shows raped and killed (by cyco) girl with commet "hahaha, it was not her day, nice stomach" ???

i seen things like this

i seen photos of beheaded man lying in dust with comment "ooo i have dandruff" , it cannot be "freedom of speech", this man could be Russian soldier in Chechnya, he could be British or American soldier in A-stan or Arab civilian

but comment was ... i cannot believe that such websites exist , link i was given by one girl from Police to show me that such thing exist

Edited April 15, 2010 by vilas

[cole 0]

pretty funny joke ???????????

you MOTHERFUCKER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

You're trying to look serious throughout the whole thread and then you use 1 after exclamation marks. I think it's time to call the troll department.

i wonder how you would react if this happen to your nation

If a plane crashed with the majority of czech politicans, I couldn't care less. I hate most of the guys anyways.

But then I'm a cold blooded asshole...

[InqWiper 0]

So you want to determine the illegality of things said by the amount of deathwishes?

Wow, that was a funny interpretation...

No.

The question was which was more dangerous, not which should be more illegal.

Riding a bike down a steep slope may be more dangerous than telling a man in a wheelchair to orally polish your trophy but that should not make it more illegal :p

[spooky lynx 73]

As I see, mainly Vilas is bashed here for his impressive opinion, but not those journalists who don't have any kind of ethics. IMHO there should be no place for humor when such things happen and almost 100 persons die in horrible way. Those who had said that it's just freedom of speech, think about one thing: what would be your reaction, when your died relatives or friends will be the subject of the same so called funny cartoon?

[vilas 477]

If a plane crashed with the majority of czech politicans, I couldn't care less. I hate most of the guys anyways.

But then I'm a cold blooded asshole...

i agree that politicians are not angels, but "this was my president" and "this was my political option"

i agree that many politicians are not honest, but in some parties you have 4% of thieves, 6% of liars

in other parties you have 10% of thieves and 40% of liars

from you , as voter, is job to make "worse" go away and choose "less bad"

in politics we don't choose "good vs. bad"

many times we choose "less worse vs. really much worse"

and i was criticizing my nation people, religious people, traditionalists many many times

you know what this "eagle" did ? it woken up "nation matters" in my head

before this i was not feeling like being part of "tradition"

and this tragedy was prescribed in topic about it, lets not again repeat politics

but even if i don't agree with US foreign politics in many cases, i cannot imagine dishonor and joke on victims of WTC

politics of president, is something different than John, Tomas, Andrew, Paul, Peter, John, Mathew working in those buildings who had wives, children

smiling at George W Bush is not equal smiling at WTC families

the same rule apply here - you can smile at politicians decisions, you cannot joke from tragedy where officers, security, combatants, priests, stewardess, pilots, crew, wives, grandsons of officers died

it was not "only President" it was 96 people

you can joke at his political decisions, you can't joke at tragedy of people

if joke was about his political decisions from past, than it would not boil my blood

96 people died, not only "one politician"

if there was building some Russian soldiers could die too in base, some civilian might die because of plane elements

it is not funny for joke

in as i remember 2007 air show 2 Belarussian pilots couldn't hold SU27 and to last second steered to empty field to not kill people on airshow

they saved hundreds of watching people

can you imagine laughing at them as freedom of speech ?

can you imaging joking of Beslan children ??? or London metro attack victims ???

Edited April 15, 2010 by vilas

[DaVca 0]

Our liberty ends where the liberty of others begins. I can understand someone can be offended by such a thing. But it’s not about being offended as it’s about vilas (any many others) being hypocrite. I could fully understand if he would say something like „...from my point of view it’s not funny at all, its disrespectful to families of those who died on that day...“ I would be perfectly fine with that. But on one hand he preaches about tolerance and in next sentence he is wishing for death of someone and suffering for his family... There is no difference between this behavior and behavior of Muslim fundamentalists (99% of them are just threatening as well and wouldn’t kill anyone). You should burn some some Belgian flags in the streets.

There is mostly no hatred in jokes, as you can talk jokes about Jews without hate towards them. Friend of mine dated black French girl. They use to mock each other all the time. He calls her a monkey and she calls him a chicken, white boy and they where always sharing racist jokes. But there is nothing more than hatred in “this who made this picture should be dead and his family should sufferâ€. And I like how you compare tragic accident in which 100 people died to Nazi death camps, or slaughtering of 200 children...