Mid east

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 06 2002,21:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and they found explosives in one ambulance, once.

That is not an excuse to stop every ambulance from picking up the wounded.<span id='postcolor'>

Wrong! Israel has found numerous cases of ambulances being used for the transport of weapons,explosives and terrorists. This was going on as far back as 2000 and was first spotted in Gaza back then.

As such, I couldn't give a damn about their ambulances as they're the ones violating the Geneva Convention.

The female suicide bomber who blew heself up in Jerusalem about 2 months ago was a PRC worker and wore here uniform to get through Israeli roadblocks and enter Jerusalem.

We've had enough!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 06 2002,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US and UK demand Israel pullout

British Prime Minister Tony Blair and US President George Bush have called for an Israeli withdrawal from cities in the West Bank "without delay".<span id='postcolor'>

Tell them this:

NUTS!

[ACEJim 0]

HonestReporting.com?

It's a (racist) israeli propaganda site and you know it Avon.

If I put up a link to Aryan Nation or the National Front would you call it an objective source of news?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,20:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We've had enough!<span id='postcolor'>

Everyone's had enough.

So just effin stop it, and let the UN deal with military operations.

Moral victory for you, end of fighting, peace, victory for everyone in the Middle East, finally enough attention towards more important problems such as Africans starving and Americans boiling off our atmosphere.

And yes, I am serious.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 06 2002,21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's a (racist) israeli propaganda site and you know it Avon.<span id='postcolor'>

No, I don't. Please show us the racism at HonestReporting.com, will you.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So just effin stop it, and let the UN deal with military operations.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, like they did now in Lebanon.

Yes, like they did last year when 3 of our soldiers were abducted under the UN's eyes in Lebanon.

Yes, like we can rely on the UN, after including the Syrians in the Security Council - yuk! yuk! yuk!

Yes, like we can rely on the UN, after they just moved out on Egypt's threats in 1967.

You know where you can shove your UN.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,20:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 06 2002,21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's a (racist) israeli propaganda site and you know it Avon.<span id='postcolor'>

No, I don't. Please show us the racism at HonestReporting.com, will you.<span id='postcolor'>

It is not necessarily the website's (stated) aim, it is more the way it is done.

Saying that because more pictures of Palestinians have been shown than pictures of Israeli's is a sign of racism/anti-Israel bias or whatever is a bit extreme. Also going back several years and covering hundreds of pages is quite a bit of dedication to find something wrong...

I put this into the same drawer as some of the ideas from Nazi-Germany, such as the one that Jews apparently have big noses. Both the nose thing and the picture thing is complete rubbish to me.

Furthermore, I think that every newspaper has a disclaimer notice somewhere (speculating now) that states that the views of its authors are not necessarily the views of the publishing company or owner etc. You will ALWAYS get personal bias, plus something what I call "induced" bias, because the paper needs to sell and the wording constructed accordingly.

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinian society has turned future doctors and lawyers into mass murderers.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

*Palestinian intimidation of the press.

*Palestinian child abuse

<span id='postcolor'>

And this cartoon...

http://honestreporting.com/graphics/bleeder1.gif

And the attitude taken towards the two sides...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Terror Continues; Media Responds

Despite the horrors, some reporters and correspondents to equate Palestinian terror and Israeli defense.<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't try to tell me that that isn't racist?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,20:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So just effin stop it, and let the UN deal with military operations.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, like they did now in Lebanon.

Yes, like they did last year when 3 of our soldiers were abducted under the UN's eyes in Lebanon.

Yes, like we can rely on the UN, after including the Syrians in the Security Council - yuk! yuk! yuk!

Yes, like we can rely on the UN, after they just moved out on Egypt's threats in 1967.

You know where you can shove your UN.<span id='postcolor'>

That's the problem if you and the other parties will not let them do their job properly.

Give them a UN resolution that is quite clear, something like "use all necessary force to keep israel+palestinians apart". THIS is how it would work.

I agree that most UN resolutions are rubbish. They would be much more effective if they were deployed like a global army.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not necessarily the website's (stated) aim, it is more the way it is done.<span id='postcolor'>

That's all you can come up with? Thank you. Next!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not necessarily the website's (stated) aim, it is more the way it is done.<span id='postcolor'>

That's all you can come up with? Thank you. Next!<span id='postcolor'>

This is not what I call discussion.

If emotions are taking over, I suggest going for a drink and coming back later.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 06 2002,21:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinian society has turned future doctors and lawyers into mass murderers.<span id='postcolor'>

Try reading the article. It's all quotes form the western press - not Israeli. You might learn something.

After you've read the article, show me what's racist and fictional about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

*Palestinian intimidation of the press.

*Palestinian child abuse

<span id='postcolor'>

Now where are you quoting from?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And this cartoon...

http://honestreporting.com/graphics/bleeder1.gif<span id='postcolor'>

What is racist about it? What is untrue about the subject?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the attitude taken towards the two sides...

Terror Continues; Media Responds

Despite the horrors, some reporters and correspondents to equate Palestinian terror and Israeli defense.<span id='postcolor'>

It's true.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please don't try to tell me that that isn't racist?<span id='postcolor'>

It's not but by your own definition, you seem to be.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is not what I call discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

That was partially my point on your earlier response.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is not what I call discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

That was partially my point on your earlier response.<span id='postcolor'>

So my are saying that what I am picking on is not worthy discussing?

Are you diagreeing with the way I have analyzed their methods, or are you disagreeing with my not criticizing their mission statement, but their procedure?

[ACEJim 0]

Any normal person could read "Honestreporting.com" for ten seconds and realise that it is racist, biased and completely untrustworthy.

If you subscribe to their view of the world you are deeply stupid.

Now read this... from an interview with an American journalist.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BOGAEV: You describe daily encounters between Israeli soldiers and

Palestinians there. And most of those killed are young Palestinian boys. What did you see of this fighting while you were there? How did this shooting go down?

Mr. HEDGES: Well, every afternoon--you know, you could almost time

it--around 3 or 4, the Palestinian kids, who have nowhere to play, would play--would go out on the dunes and they'd have kites or rag balls and this kind of stuff. And I remember--I heard it the first day. And I speak Arabic, so I'm listening over the loudspeaker to the worst curse words in Arabic, and phrases like, you know, 'All the Palestinians who live in Khan Yunis are dogs,' which is calling an Arab a dog is particularly insulting. And I couldn't--I just couldn't believe what I heard.

And I walked out towards the dunes and they were--the--over the

loudspeaker from an Israeli army Jeep on the other side of the electric fence they were taunting these kids. And these kids started to throw rocks. And most of these kids were 10, 11, 12 years old. And, first of all, the rocks were the size of a fist. They were being hurled towards a Jeep that was armor-plated. I doubt they could even hit the Jeep. And then I watched the soldiers open fire. And it was--I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport. It was--I just--even now, I find it almost inconceivable. And I went back every day, and every day it was the same.

<span id='postcolor'>

Full interview-

http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is not what I call discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

Here. Let me help you.

"Racism" as defined by Websters Dictionary:

rac-ism (ray'siz uhm) n.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent

differences among the various human

races determine cultural or individual

achievement, usu. involving the idea

that one's own race is superior.

2. a policy, system of government, etc.,

based on such a doctrine.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or

other races.

[1865-70; < F racisme. See RACE 2, - ISM]

Now, where is the racism at HonestReporting.com, as claimed or - more accurately - assumed?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,21:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 06 2002,21:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is not what I call discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

Here. Let me help you.

"Racism" as defined by Websters Dictionary:

rac-ism (ray'siz uhm)  n.

                 1.  a belief or doctrine that inherent

                      differences among the various human

                      races determine cultural or individual

                      achievement, usu. involving the idea

                      that one's own race is superior.

                 2.  a policy, system of government, etc.,

                      based on such a doctrine.

                 3.  hatred or intolerance of another race or

                      other races.

            [1865-70; < F racisme. See RACE 2, - ISM]

Now, where is the racism at HonestReporting.com, as claimed or - more accurately - assumed?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, I see.

The problem is the media, nowadays a lot of definitions get washed up.

I guess the word I was looking for was Extremist or extremely biased or extreme cultural bias then.

Apologies

[ACEJim 0]

Then you are blatently a racist Avon.

And the idea that I am really is quite funny.

Have I used any racist language, terms or phrases? Have I said I hate Jews? Have I said I hate israel?

Nope. The old tactic of Israeli's calling anyone who disagrees with them reappears.

BTW I suppose this guy's a racist too?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi....459.stm

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Well, never mind the extremism, hate, racism etc.

All this can be educated away.

It worked fine for Germany...all it took was 50 years of NATO occupation and the creation of the EU. Now France, Holland and Belgium and all the others are friends with Germany, despite the Nazis (which I rate as the worst villains in history).

Compared to the Nazis, suicide bombers and the IDF are just sheep.

So if the UN (or some other international entity, such as the EU) just takes matters into its hands, applies maximum force, and keeps both apart for 2-5 years or something, then things could be worked out very easily.

If the world can deal with the Nazis, then it SURELY can deal with Israel+Palestine.

[ACEJim 0]

Sending the UN in seems like the best tactic at the moment...

[Hilandor 1]

i think the forums could do with a visit from the UN delegation too

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We are getting slightly unproductive here. I hate those right-wrong discussions, they end nowhere. Now we discuss each others source of information and its trustworthyness. That is ridiculous!

I dont want to get stuck in that. Why cant we talk about the strategic use of the occupation. In management you would start with a SWAT analysis (estimating strengths,weakness and opportunities and threats). Sharon knows very well about the strengths (military) and about the weaknesses (uncontrolable borders) but what about the opportunities and threats. Opportunities from an occupation is to destroy any power of terrorism. But terrorism isnt a clear target, it is only found in the minds of people, what can tanks do against that? Threats, well a threat is that this occupation feeds terrorism-camps since those have a good new propaganda tool against Israel (hate) to recruit suicide-bombers (and get financial support from other Arabian countries). And with people full of hate you have a damm ugly weapon.

Sharon should have known through a simple SWOT that the positive outcome is not as gloomy as the possible negative side-effect. Israel, whether right or wrong, does kill its own gloabl reputation and therefore any sympathy. Nowadays, with all the economical dependance on import/export that is not the best thing to do! Or?  

sharon will stop once he succeeded, so basically the killing will never end!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

As far as I am aware though, Sharon is a general and not a manager. So what could he possibly know about SWOT analysis??

The problem with this topic is, there is just too much emotion involved.

If you look at it from economical terms, Israel and Lebanon have HUGE potential as a tourist economy, so close to the Mediterranean etc.

On the other hand, as long as they are killing each other, the tourists will come to us instead, so I guess its ok from the economical point of view

This is rubbish

I know why I didn't wanna be a politician...

[Satchel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2002,21<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The PLO was founded in 1964, with the backing mainly of Egypt, 3 years before the 6-day war, when Israel was within its 1948 borders. It's charter has not changed. It calls for the destruction of the Jewish State known as Israel. Learn a little elementary history.

<span id='postcolor'>

I don´t think my history knowledge needs an update, but i would be interested in how you describe the seizing of Hebron, Ramallah, Bire, Gaza, Balata and Dschabalija, with the palestinians in there are constantly chased from one camp to another, being rightless refugees deprived of any place to stay safely and permanently under their own, that is without Israeli occupation and oppression. Instead they are kept like cattle, with ca. 550 human beings pearched together on a single km˛ under unbearable circumsstances, and this space is getting less and less as you can see LIVE on television or read in the news.    

I´m really curious about your israeli definition for that Avon, as someone said earlier we called it "schaffen von Lebensraum" in one of the darker timeperiods of Germany.???

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then how do you explain the outcome, or lack thereof, of the Malyasina Moslem confenece that just concluded or are you not even aware of what I'm referring to?

<span id='postcolor'>

Then explain Scharon showing of in an intentional provocing act in Haram-al-Scharif after the failed peace talks in Camp David, what was ultimately the ignition for a chain of terror acts known as the second Intifada?

Is maybe the same lack of interest in a peaceful solution as radical palestinian groups have them, to keep their crusade of revenge ongoing?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If 60% + of the Germans said that killing Jews whichever way possible was OK, then the answer is YES. These are the conclusions of Arab run polls in the West Bank and Gaza. I've given the links to them and the statistics have been constant over many years including just after the OSlo agreements were signed.

<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting this number, but i doubt it´s valid and for sure modified to meet the intentions of the poll starters. If you would start a poll right now, i´m sure you get 100% and i wouldn´t be surprised- considering whats happening there right now. It´s always dependant on the situation at hand amongst other factors.

The way palestinians are treated by israelis doesn´t make me wonder they don´t like them very much, although terror acts are another topic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I've had my say. I'll discontinue my participation here because none of you are interested in knowing what has and is going on here for the last 2 years, 8 years or 40 years.

Enjoy you local news broadcasts. Keep bleieving that there's no political agenda among the journalists sent here.

Avon signing off.

<span id='postcolor'>

This isn´t the right way, everyone has his/her own points and you can respect or disrespect those points in a discussion, everyone is entitled to his/her own oppinion, your view must not necessary be the right one, such as other views must not.

As long as we keep it without flaming nationalities or vicious personal attacks, this thematic should be a problem for noone in this forum.

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Satchel @ April 06 2002,21:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This isn´t the right way, everyone has his/her own points and you can respect or disrespect those points in a discussion, everyone is entitled to his/her own oppinion, your view must not necessary be the right one, such as other views must not.

As long as we keep it without flaming nationalities or vicious personal attacks, this thematic should be a problem for noone in this forum.<span id='postcolor'>

well said that man