Mid east

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 14 2003,16:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your source completely ignores the fact that the UN plan took away half of the land that the Palestinians had lived on for centuries.  <span id='postcolor'>

half? Have you ever seen a map of greater Palestine with Israel in it? I don't even think Israel takes up 10% of that area.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 14 2003,16:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your source completely ignores the fact that the UN plan took away half of the land that the Palestinians had lived on for centuries.  <span id='postcolor'>

half?   Have you ever seen a map of greater Palestine with Israel in it?  I don't even think Israel takes up 10% of that area.<span id='postcolor'>

WOW wich maps are you looking at ?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,22:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 14 2003,16:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your source completely ignores the fact that the UN plan took away half of the land that the Palestinians had lived on for centuries.  <span id='postcolor'>

half?   Have you ever seen a map of greater Palestine with Israel in it?<span id='postcolor'>

Seen it?  I even posted it on page 212.

Where did you get your UN plan map from?  Perhaps the same secret place that you read about Arabs having killed more Palestinians and occupying their land for longer than Israelis, hmm?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you so shure about it ?<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm... war for independence, yom kippur war, 6 day war. Yep I'm pretty sure.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">www.mideastweb.org<span id='postcolor'>

It says on that site that Al Jazeera is reporting that the US nuked Baghdad! At least it's saying it's not credible.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Take it all?" That should read "take it all back." Your source completely ignores the fact that the UN plan took away half of the land that the Palestinians had lived on for centuries.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, take it all. The UK owned that land, not the palestinians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your source also ignores all the massacres of Arabs by Jewish militias and ethnic cleansing of Arab villages that preceded the "all-out war." Does it mention that 418 Palestinian Arab villages were wiped from the map? Does your source mention that the number of Palestinian Arab refugees was greater than the region's entire Jewish population?<span id='postcolor'>

Someone's got a chip on their shoulder.

I did say it was biased.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've got news for ya, FS. Even if Americans did have religious roots in Iraq and had been persecuted for years, the UN still wouldn't have any right to divide it into 2 parts.<span id='postcolor'>

Why not?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm... wrong again. Israel instigated* the 1948 war and initiated* the 1967 war.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, no. The other 5 nations attacked Israel in 1948. The six day war was a preemptive strike because the arabs were obviously goign to start another one. And the yom kippur war was yet another war started by the arabs.

[bogo 0]

FS i suggest you go 213 and read my post there you have the evidence.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (hneel @ April 14 2003,20:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">www.mideastweb.org

I just came across this site. What do you think? Is it neutral? Or biased? To me it looks they are pretty critical on both Israel and the palestinians. Quite a lot of backround information too.<span id='postcolor'>

Thanks for the link, hneel.  The site is worth visiting, but it tends to have a why-can't-we-all-just-get-along attitude, which has been tested and failed in this conflict for many decades.

I mostly visit sites maintained by members of the Israeli or North American Jewish community, whose view of Israel's future doesn't need to include annual defence budgets of $6 billion (or $1000/citizen).

One good example of a great site is Gush-Shalom.  They often translate and post interesting articles from the Israeli media that MEMRI prefers to overlook, such as this story of an Israeli journalist's journey to the Palestinian refugee camp where Rachel Corrie was killed.  They've also created a great little Flash presentation called "Barak's Generous Offer."

Gush-Shalom is run by Israeli writer, Uri Avnery.

Don't miss his personal news page!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 15 2003,01:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Take it all?"  That should read "take it all back."  Your source completely ignores the fact that the UN plan took away half of the land that the Palestinians had lived on for centuries.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, take it all.  The UK owned that land, not the palestinians.<span id='postcolor'>

Bullshit.  The UK administered Palestine after liberating it from the Ottoman Empire, just as the US is about to administer Iraq after liberating it from Saddam Hussein.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 15 2003,01:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've got news for ya, FS.  Even if Americans did have religious roots in Iraq and had been persecuted for years, the UN still wouldn't have any right to divide it into 2 parts.<span id='postcolor'>

Why not?<span id='postcolor'>

Go read the UN Charter and find out.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 15 2003,01:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The other 5 nations attacked Israel in 1948.

The six day war was a preemptive strike because the arabs were obviously goign to start another one.

And the yom kippur war was yet another war started by the arabs.<span id='postcolor'>

Have you ever wondered why the only conflict you've tried to justify is the one started by Israel?  Aren't the motivations of the Arab states equally worthy of your understanding.  If I were to say something vapid like "GW2 was yet another war started by the Americans" then you would at least want me to acknowledge all of Saddam Hussein's WMDs, right?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FS i suggest you go 213 and read my post there you have the evidence.<span id='postcolor'>

So one of the Israeli commanders didn't agree with the decision, so what?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bullshit. The UK administered Palestine after liberating it from the Ottoman Empire, just as the US is about to administer Iraq after liberating it from Saddam Hussein.<span id='postcolor'>

Owned, administered. Same difference.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you ever wondered why the only conflict you've tried to justify is the one started by Israel? Aren't the motivations of the Arab states equally worthy of your understanding. If I were to say something vapid like "GW2 was yet another war started by the Americans" then you would at least want me to acknowledge all of Saddam Hussein's WMDs, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Sure, I'd like you to acknowledge the motives behind the conflicts, just like the arab's motives behind their conflicts: domination and the extermination of Israel.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you so shure about it ?

Hmmm... war for independence, yom kippur war, 6 day war.  Yep I'm pretty sure.<span id='postcolor'>

I am not the talking about a guy from the settret or a nobody he was the commander of idf air force at that time.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sure, I'd like you to acknowledge the motives behind the conflicts, just like the arab's motives behind their conflicts: domination and the extermination of Israel. <span id='postcolor'>

I think Us proved how stong are the arab states. The arabs are doing the talk and the idf those the action. There isent a single country now in middle east that can match IDF american arsenal of armament. By the way dident you know that Israel has Nuclear Weapon.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 15 2003,03:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sure, I'd like you to acknowledge the motives behind the conflicts, just like the arab's motives behind their conflicts: domination and the extermination of Israel. <span id='postcolor'>

I think Us proved how stong are the arab states. The arabs are doing the talk and the idf those the action. There isent a single country now in middle east that can match IDF american arsenal of armament. By the way dident you know that Israel has Nuclear Weapon.<span id='postcolor'>

Darn, I've lost my blogo-to-English translator.

[PitViper 0]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 14 2003,178)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where did you get your UN plan map from?  Perhaps the same secret place that you read about Arabs having killed more Palestinians and occupying their land for longer than Israelis, hmm?<span id='postcolor'>

I said greater Palestine not Palestine as we now define it.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the Lebanese have killed more Palestinians than Israelis.

Also, the Egyptians occupied the Gaza strip before the Israelis, the Jordanians occupied the West Bank and Syria occuped the Golan Heights.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 14 2003,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whatever. It was either that or be occupied. We did more good as neutrals than we would ever be able to do if we were occupied.<span id='postcolor'>

Ya.. You did more "good" alright.    The wehrmacht would have most definitely ground to a halt earlier had it not been for swedish material support and weaponry. How many allied soldiers died because of your treachery? At least those countries (who became occupied) attempted to fight off their invaders and didn't sell out and screw their neighbors while getting their pockets lined.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At least this way we managed to save many jews, danes and norweigans who otherwise would have had no place to run to.<span id='postcolor'>

The same norwegians which suffered the wehrmacht assault through your country?

[Longinius 1]

"How many allied soldiers died because of your treachery?"

Not many.There were no allied soldiers in Sweden who could have died from us being neutral. We were not strong enough to tip the balance either way. We did however save many lifes, both soldiers and civilians.

"At least those countries (who became occupied) attempted to fight off their invaders and didn't sell out and screw their neighbors while padding their packet."

We didnt screw our neighbours. You can say that over and over again but it doesnt change anything. Know why? Because our neighbours were neutral as well. They knew what was up, they knew we were neutral and we knew they were as well. The only reason they had to fight of an invasion was that they had no choice. They were attacked and had to defend themselves. If Germany had just attacked Sweden, like it did Denmark and Norway, we to would have fought. And been occupied. And as a result of that the Danish and Norweigan freedomfighters would have no safe havens to turn to. Jews from the occupied countries would have nowhere to escape to. But i guess you like it that way.

"The same norwegians that you allowed the wehrmacht to assault through your country? wonderful."

Wrong. Learn your history. Norway wasnt attack from Sweden, it was attacked from the sea.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 15 2003,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya.. You did more "good" alright.    The wehrmacht would have most definitely ground to a halt earlier had it not been for swedish material support and weaponry.

How many allied soldiers died because of your treachery? At least those countries (who became occupied) attempted to fight off their invaders and didn't sell out and screw their neighbors while getting their pockets lined.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At least this way we managed to save many jews, danes and norweigans who otherwise would have had no place to run to.<span id='postcolor'>

The same norwegians which suffered the wehrmacht assault through your country?<span id='postcolor'>

You really need to read a history book or two. We certainly had more clean hands than most that were involved in WW2. We did not murder Jews, we saved them. We did not drop atomic bombs killing 400,000 civilians. We did not fire bomb civillian populations like Dresden.

Since your ignorance is obviously so huge that it would require a lot of my time to educate you on WW2 Swedish-German relations, I'm not going to bother to argue with you.

Instead I'll say it like this: So what? How is what happened or did not happen over half a century ago relevant for anything today? Or do you wish to bring up slavery, the extermination of your Indian population in the discussion?

Following your example I could say: Of course that the US does not support the Palestinians. Look what they did to their native people: Exterminated most of them and locked up the rest in reservations. Hell, it could be a good blueprint for Israel. Or perhaps Hitler was inspired by the US treatment of the native Americans?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not the talking about a guy from the settret or a nobody he was the commander of idf air force at that time.<span id='postcolor'>

Yet you're ignoring the opinion of his superiors, who probably know more than he does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I The arabs are doing the talk and the idf those the action.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! You don't really think that do you?

[Bernadotte 0]

On 28 Sept., 2000, Ariel Sharon ignored warnings from the US and the international community by visiting the the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount in Jerusalem, surrounded by over 1000 police.  According to the U.S. Department of State:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinians held large demonstrations and threw stones at police in the vicinity of the Western Wall. Police used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring about 200.<span id='postcolor'>

Thus began the second Intifada.

Two weeks later and hundreds of Palestinian deaths later, a Washington based organisation called JINSA published the following letter:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>The Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs Flag & General Officers Statement on Palestinian Violence</span>

October 12, 2000

We, the undersigned, believe that during the current upheavals in Israel the Israel Defense Forces have exercised remarkable restraint in the face of lethal violence orchestrated by the leadership of a Palestinian Authority that deliberately pushes civilians and young people to the front lines.

We are appalled by the Palestinian political and military leadership that teaches children the mechanics of war while filling their heads with hate. We are appalled by Palestinian "police" and "military commanders" who place armed adults amid civilian rioters, betting their children's lives on the capabilities and restraint of the IDF and then callously using the inevitable casualties as grist for their propaganda mill.

The behavior of those Palestinians, who use civilians as soldiers in a war, is a perversion of military ethics.

We have traveled to Israel over the years with The Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. We do not claim to be experts in the political affairs of Israel and its neighbors.

However, in those travels, we brought with us our decades of military experience and came away with the unswerving belief that the security of the State of Israel is a matter of great importance to US policy in the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean, as well as around the world. A strong Israel is an asset that American military planners and political leaders can rely on.

Israeli military innovations, shared with America, in tanks and tank warfare, ballistic missile defense capabilities, reserve mobilization, the uses of air power and early warning, among others, are astonishing. But what makes the US-Israel security relationship one of mutual benefit is the combination of military capabilities and shared political values - freedom, democracy, personal liberty and the rule of law.

We met in Israel with leaders from left to right on the Israeli political spectrum, and we met with soldiers from privates to generals and Chiefs of Staff. We traveled throughout the north, along the coast, in the Negev, Jerusalem and the territories. We reconfirmed the ageless lessons that every military professional knows - how geography and topography can predict destiny.Throughout our travels and our talks, the determination of Israelis to protect their country and pursue a fair and workable peace with their neighbors at the same time was evident. It is with this background that we view the current conflict in and around Israel with such dismay. Yitzhak Rabin said at the beginning of this peace effort with the Palestinians that one can only make peace with one's enemies. But what every soldier also knows is that the enemy must have decided to put down his weapons - rocks as well as rifles - and make peace in good faith. The Palestinian-initiated violence in Israel now strongly tells us that the necessary good faith is sorely lacking on the Palestinian side.

America's role as facilitator in this process should never yield to America's responsibility as a friend to Israel, the only country in the Middle East that shares our democratic and humanitarian values. Friends don't leave friends on the battlefield.

Lt. Gen. Marcus Anderson, USAF (ret.) - Inspector General, US Air Force

Lt. Gen. Robert Baer, USA (ret.) - Deputy Commander, Army Materiel Command

R. Adm. Charles Beers, USN (ret.) - Commander, Submarine Group Ten

Lt. Gen. Anthony Burshnick, USAF (ret.) - Commander, Military Airlift Command

Lt. Gen. Paul Cerjan, USA (ret.) - Deputy Allied Commander, Europe

Admiral Bruce DeMars, USN (ret.) - Director, Naval Nuclear Propulsion

Maj. Gen. Lee Downer, USAF (ret.) - Director of Operations, Air Combat Command

Admiral Leon Edney, USN (ret.) - Commander US Atlantic Fleet

Maj. Gen. Donald Gardner, USMC (ret.) - Commander, III Marine Expeditionary Force

<span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Lt. Gen. Jay Garner, USA (ret.) - Assistant Vice Chief of Staff</span>

Lt. Gen. Tom Griffin, USA (ret.) - Chief of Staff, Allied Forces Southern Europe

Admiral Jerome Johnson, USN (ret.) - Vice Chief of Naval Operations

V. Adm. Anthony Less, USN (ret.) - Commander, Naval Air Forces, US Atlantic Fleet

Maj. Gen. Jarvis Lynch, USMC (ret.) - Commander, Eastern Marine Recruiting Depot

Lt. Gen. Charlie May, USAF (ret.) - Vice Chief of Staff, USAF

Lt. Gen. James McCombs, USAF (ret.) - Deputy Commander in Chief, Special Ops Command

Maj. Gen. William C. Moore, USA (ret.) - Director, Operations, Readiness & Mobilization

Maj. Gen. Robert Patterson, USAF (ret.) - Commanding General, 23rd Air Force

V. Adm. James Perkins, USN (ret.) - Deputy Commander in Chief, US Southern Command

Lt. Gen. Everett Pratt, USAF (ret.) - Vice Commander, US Air Forces Europe

Maj. Gen. Milnor Roberts, USA (ret.) - Deputy Chief, US Army Reserve

R. Adm. Norman Saunders, USCG (ret.) - Commander, 7th Coast Guard District

Maj. Gen. Sidney Shachnow, USA (ret.) - Commanding General, JFK Special Forces School

R. Adm. Sumner Shapiro, USN (ret.) - Director, Naval Intelligence

Maj. Gen. Larry Taylor, USMC (ret.) - Commanding General, 4th Marine Aircraft Wing

V. Adm. Jerome Tuttle, USN (ret.) - Director, Space & Electronic Warfare<span id='postcolor'>

Given the strong empathy the Iraqi people feel towards the plight of the Palestinians and given all the prevailing "Zionist conspiracy" theories running rampant on the Iraqi streets, what the hell was Bush thinking when he proposed Gen. Jay Garner to lead post-war Iraq?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Bush was thinking? !

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Ok, sorry that was a cheap shot. Im pretty sure W. Bush wasnt too concerned about Garners appointment inflaming arab opinion. How could those freedom loving people of Iraq possibly object to the man who will endevour to bring them budweiser, liberty and the pursuit of greenbacks?

[IceFire 0]

OMG!!! I don't believe it. After all the work I put in to sink this thread(I managed to get it to page 4 ) it is still back up.

Thanks alot whoever went back to find it and then post in here.

Oh well.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 23 2003,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OMG!!!  I don't believe it.  After all the work I put in to sink this thread (I managed to get it to page 4   )...<span id='postcolor'>

There must be an easier way to boost your post count.    

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 22 2003,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OMG!!!  I don't believe it.  After all the work I put in to sink this thread(I managed to get it to page 4   ) it is still back up.

Thanks alot whoever went back to find it and then post in here.  

Oh well.<span id='postcolor'>

maybe the mods will do you a favor and pin this back up there, (maybe remove the News sites, live feed etc thread) so you don't have to go so far to find this thread again.

-=Die Alive=-

[IceFire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 23 2003,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 23 2003,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OMG!!!  I don't believe it.  After all the work I put in to sink this thread (I managed to get it to page 4   )...<span id='postcolor'>

There must be an easier way to boost your post count.    <span id='postcolor'>

This has NOTHING to do with any "post count".

Heck, I don't really even care about "postcounts", nor do I have any idea why they even exist.

My only purpose was to see this thread gone and forgotten.

[Bernadotte 0]

The West London home of Asif Mohammed Hanif who just blew himself up in a Tel Aviv pub, killing three people and injuring more than 50.

Has the government of Israel asked Tony Blair to demolish it yet or is that sort of response only applied to homes situated in their promised land?

[FSPilot 0]

Amazing. Another suicide bombing killing Israeli civilians and you're still badmouthing them.