Mid east

[IceFire 0]

Hmm, this is the second time you have countered me today.

Are you trying to become an anti-IceFire?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 11 2003,06:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm, this is the second time you have countered me today.

Are you trying to become an anti-IceFire?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually this was the first I believe . Nah, not trying to get personal or anything, just that I happen to strongly disagree with a lot of what you're saying today

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 10 2003,10:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 10 2003,10:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From the Reuters article Bogo quoted:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jewish vigilantes have carried out several attacks against Palestinians during the two-and-a-half-year-old revolt for Palestinian independence.<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 09 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For all of you that dont belive that there are also Israeli Terrorists    <span id='postcolor'>

What a farce!<span id='postcolor'>

Farce?  Do you actually deny that there are Israeli terrorists and that Jewish vigilantes have carried out attacks against Palestinians?  Please allow me to <s>pull your head out of your ass</s> retort.

Before the first suicide bomber ever struck Israel there was American/Israeli  Dr. Baruch Goldstein who shot to death 29 Palestinians and wounded approximately a hundred more in the West Bank while they were praying.  The gravesite of this mass murderer has become a shrine where "numerous people from all over the world come to pray and honor his memory."  Tell me avon, have you ever visited Goldstein's gravesite?  

Moving right along...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to Israeli media and security forces, violent Jewish extremism is a serious problem in the Middle East. Kach and Kahane Chai are perhaps two of the best-known Israeli groups who use terrorist tactics to promote their agenda, but their amorphous membership links them to a number of smaller groups, including Eyal.

-- Center for Defence Information<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A bomb explosion at a Palestinian school has injured five pupils.  The Israeli army, which controls security in the area, detonated a second device found at the school buildings.  The school headmaster and Israeli military sources have suggested that the bombs were planted by Israeli militants.

...

In March, a Jewish vigilante group claimed responsibility for a bomb explosion at a Palestinian school near Jerusalem which injured five people.

--- BBC<span id='postcolor'>

And it hasn't even been a year since this:  Israeli Authorities Preparing Indictment against Jewish Terrorist Cell

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just outside the Arab Mukassed Hospital and a nearby Muslim girl's school, two men were seen unhitching a trailer from the vehicle, which belonged to the security detail of a Jewish religious settlement.  The trailer was found to contain a powerful bomb, made of military-issue explosives, containers of oil and propane cooking-gas cylinders. According to Israel's domestic intelligence service, a clock attached to the detonator was set for 7:35 in the morning, when students would be arriving at school.<span id='postcolor'>It seems that blowing up Palestinian kids wasn't enough.  They wanted to incinerate them, as well.

There's plenty more on the net about Israeli civilian terrorism, but be sure to search for vigilante, militant or extremist instead of terrorist.  Perhaps only Palestinian militants get to be called terrorists.

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 11 2003,06:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kill this thread! This thread is so old.

Let it die.

I'm sick of seeing threads with like 60 pages and 1000 posts.

These threads need to be done away with to make room for fresh new threads!<span id='postcolor'>

If you don't like this thread then don't read it. It's much better to have one big thread concerning about Middle East than new threads every now and then.

[Bernadotte 0]

Thomas Hurndall, UK

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">British peace activist shot by IDF troops in Gaza Strip  -- Ha'aretz

...

Along the way, the protesters were joined by several children, the witnesses said. When the group was about 200 yards away from three tanks, soldiers opened fire from a tank-mounted machine gun, the witnesses said.  Hurndall and another foreign activist tried to get two children out of the line of fire, Hamra and Abdullah said. "Thomas grabbed one of their hands and as soon as he did that a tank fired at him, hitting him in the head," Hamra said.

The photographer said the children were not throwing rocks at the troops and that he saw nothing that would have provoked the troops.

Hurndall was declared brain dead after arriving at Rafah Hospital.<span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,12:o2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,12:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't/doesn't Israel simply make everyone living within its international border an Israeli citizen?<span id='postcolor'>

No country I know of is in the habit of making belligerent country's citizens (Jordan and Egypt) their own.<span id='postcolor'>

Of course not, unless they attack and occupy territories of those countries and ultimately draw their own borders around and build settlements on those territories.  I know of no country that would not making citizens out of the occupants of captured territories (besides Israel), do you?

[IceFire 0]

Who are you talking to Bernadotte?

There's noone here, and you seem to be the only one interested in a discussion in this thread.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 13 2003,01:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who are you talking to Bernadotte?

There's noone here, and you seem to be the only one interested in a discussion in this thread.<span id='postcolor'>

if noone is interested , why do you post in it then ? let him say what he wants to say since apparently not everything has been said yet on this discussion

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 13 2003,01:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 13 2003,01:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who are you talking to Bernadotte?

There's noone here, and you seem to be the only one interested in a discussion in this thread.<span id='postcolor'>

if noone is interested , why do you post in it then ? let him say what he wants to say since apparently not everything has been said yet on this discussion<span id='postcolor'>

Because I aim to see this thread die, and sink to the bottom of the thread pages where noone will ever have to see it again.

This would be a much easier task if people stopped replying to this thread.

Looks like the burden of this task is on my shoulders and my shoulders alone.

Oh well.  As they say,  if you want something done, you gotta do it yourself.   *Sigh*<span id='postcolor'>

I believe you are wrong! We need this thread - if you don't like it don't post here!

The war in Iraq has taken the focus away from the palestine-israel conflict. This forum is no exception. After a while things will go back to normal again.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 13 2003,01:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...I aim to see this thread die, and sink to the bottom of the thread pages where noone will ever have to see it again.<span id='postcolor'>

The world is full of people like you.  

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 13 2003,01:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who are you talking to Bernadotte?

There's noone here, and you seem to be the only one interested in a discussion in this thread.<span id='postcolor'>

IceFire, I'm cutting your post count by half because of your spamming in this thread. If you have nothing to contribute, stay out!

[FSPilot 0]

Ok, I've got some questions and I figure this is the best place to come to get some answers. I know a little about the situation with Israel, mostly what my Dad can tell me in 15 minutes.

Anyway, why does everyone hate Israel? I mean first they were persecuted by the Nazis, then they get their own nation and it looks like they're getting a break, but no now they have to deal with Palestine and their neighbors. Why do people hate Israel so much? Aside from defending themselves they haven't hurt anybody.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,01:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, I've got some questions and I figure this is the best place to come to get some answers.  I know a little about the situation with Israel, mostly what my Dad can tell me in 15 minutes.

Anyway, why does everyone hate Israel?  I mean first they were persecuted by the Nazis, then they get their own nation and it looks like they're getting a break, but no now they have to deal with Palestine and their neighbors.  Why do people hate Israel so much?  Aside from defending themselves they haven't hurt anybody.<span id='postcolor'>

read the whole thread , it will give you and idea of both sides' arguments

it's mainly about land property and religion

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,07:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">read the whole thread , it will give you and idea of both sides' arguments

it's mainly about land property and religion<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I'll just call in sick to work and school for a day.

Doesn't this thread have a movie that summarizes it?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,02:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,071)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">read the whole thread , it will give you and idea of both sides' arguments

it's mainly about land property and religion<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I'll just call in sick to work and school for a day.

Doesn't this thread have a movie that summarizes it? <span id='postcolor'>

1 day ? are you dreaming ?

2 full weeks maybe if you want to check all the links and understand them and the posts

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,01:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, why does everyone hate Israel?  I mean first they were persecuted by the Nazis...<span id='postcolor'>

Israel was not persecuted by the Nazis.  Israel wasn't established until 1948.

Ever heard of a land called Palestine?  At least 4 US cities are named after it.  The Ottomans occupied it for several centuries until the Brits kicked them out.  Ariel Sharon was born there along with lots of other Jews, Christians and Muslims.

The UN said that ~600,000 Jews could establish their own country there in 1947, however they did it without the permission of the million or so non-Jews who were already living there.  And when those angry locals resisted they got expelled - over 700,000 of them.

Ever heard of Palestinian refugees?  Israel never let them return to their homes.  In fact they destroyed their homes and whole villages by the hundreds, where they'd lived for centuries.

Today Israelis are divided into 2 main groups.  The first group recognises that much of Israel was stolen from the Palestinians 55 years ago and that there must be compensation and reconciliation before there can be a lasting peace.  The second group believes that the land was "promised" to them by God and, therefore, they had a right to take it away from whomever happened to be living there.  Ariel Sharon and theavonlady are in the second group.

Many fundamentalist Christians have joined up with the second group because the New Testament promises that Jesus will only return when the Jews have repopulated biblical Israel.  It's these folks who actually wield serious power and influence in Washington.  Sam Samson and Duke of Ray are in this group.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 13 2003,09:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel was not persecuted by the Nazis. Israel wasn't established until 1948.<span id='postcolor'>

Bah! I mean the Jewish people.

I think I belong to the second group as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that God taught the Israelis warfare and they've done a miraculous (pun intended) job of it so far. But that's a different subject alltogether.

I do understand why the palestinians are pissed off about losing their homeland. But that's no excuse to kill civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with it. By doing that they've pretty much lost the "persecution" card.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,05:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think I belong to the second group as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that God taught the Israelis warfare and they've done a miraculous (pun intended) job of it so far. But that's a different subject alltogether.

<span id='postcolor'>

Then it's no use to argue with you as you have made up your mind already.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do understand why the palestinians are pissed off about losing their homeland. But that's no excuse to kill civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with it. By doing that they've pretty much lost the "persecution" card.<span id='postcolor'>

So, when the Israeli soldiers kill innocent palestinians thats alright then?

- oh sorry, I forgot that God wanted them to have all the land - no matter what!

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 13 2003,11:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then it's no use to argue with you as you have made up your mind already.<span id='postcolor'>

And you don't?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, when the Israeli soldiers kill innocent palestinians thats alright then?

- oh sorry, I forgot that God wanted them to have all the land - no matter what!<span id='postcolor'>

There's a difference between accidentally shooting a civilian, and suicide bombing civilians.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

So, when the Israeli soldiers kill innocent palestinians thats alright then?

- oh sorry, I forgot that God wanted them to have all the land - no matter what!

<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh my god wich religion gives you the right to take another mans life for his land? If how Israel was created was right then half of the world will be in war.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 13 2003,12:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If how Israel was created was right then half of the world will be in war.<span id='postcolor'>

You said a mouthful.

Extrinsically, Israel was created by an act of the UN. In 1948, it would have had smaller borders but the Arabs sought to annihilate the Jewish State. Same thing happened in 1967.

Indeed, if everyone behaved like the Arabs, half the world will be in war. I fully agree with that statement of yours.

[Longinius 1]

"By doing that they've pretty much lost the "persecution" card. "

They lost that far earlier, since they have demanded compensation for what happened and as far as I know, payments has been done. I could be wrong however. But the responsible Nazis were brought to trial, convicted and killed. Justice was served. As far as I am concerned (a person who has no Nazi sympathies or ties) there never was a persecution card. If the Nazis had gone free and no compensation had been done, it would be another matter however.

And Avon, I am really interested in seeing you respond to Bernadottes post about Israeli terrorists. You said there were none, he provided examples. Was he lying? Cause honestly, I have no clue.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,12:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Avon, I am really interested in seeing you respond to Bernadottes post about Israeli terrorists. You said there were none, he provided examples. Was he lying? Cause honestly, I have no clue.<span id='postcolor'>

I said there are no organized groups. Read my posts again? I asked how many you can point out.

Indeed, there's Godstein and there's a case of two Bat Ayin (I think) guys who are currently standing trial. There are a lot of problems with the trial BTW, as early testimony by a police witness alluded that the device was never designed to go off.

Nevertheless, that's 3 people.

Then there have been roughly 6-8 shooting incidents over the last 2-3 years, proported to be commited by Jews. However, one of those incidents, involving the drive by death of a Christian clergymen, turned out to be done by an Arab, who was eventually captured. So go ahead and make assumptions about all the other cases. Maybe you want to be even handed and divide them 50-50?

Regarding Kach and Kahane Chai, every one of their memebers and active sympathizers is known to the police and justice system, who constantly over-harrass them for doing nothing.

Organized terror? What a joke! Please list for me the organized terror acts perpretrated by Kahane Chai.

Regarding the Eyal organization, that's even the funnier. It was formed by the GSS, under Yizthak Rabin's authority to draw in "extermist" right wingers and to convince them to perpetrate acts of violence. The recruiting was done by Avishai Raviv, A GSS agent who attempted to infiltrate these people.

The only thing that ever came from a member of Eyal was Yigal Amir, who assisinated Yitzhak Rabin. How Ironic. Otherwise, there is no Eyal anymore, it was short lived, the judicial system has criticized the GSS for promoting violence and nothing else ever occurred through Eyal's activities.

I've never visited Goldstein's grave. This has been asked of me here before. Nor do I know of anyone personally who has visited.

BTW, I have never knowingly or willingly contributed a penny to Kach, Kahane Chai or even the US based JDL. And that's in principle.

Kach uses the word "numerous" to describe how many people visit the Goldtein grave site. Go and find them. Even when the left has protested gatherings in the past, the best the most leftist of Israeli newspapers could photograph was around 15-20 people there. Like wow!

Furthermore, Bernadotte conveniently forgets to tell you that before suicide bombings, Isrealis were being murdered by more standard terrorist methods, at a much higher rate than in previous years. Go look up the data and statistics yourself.

As for Goldstein himself, he had no accomplices, no funding, no support, nor did he confide in anyone before the night he mass murdered 29 people. In fact, he was a doctor who Arabs themselves who had been treated by him in all sorts of circumstances and knew him, didn't expect that he, of all people, who perpetrate such a bloody act.

BTW, just why did Goldstein do what he did? Did something snap? Got any ideas?

[Longinius 1]

On the other hand, there is no need or reason for Jewish terrorist groups, since the Jews have the state on their side.

I doubt there are many examples of organized terroristgroups on the same side as an established government. Usually terrorists oppose a government.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,12:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand, there is no need or reason for Jewish terrorist groups, since the Jews have the state on their side.

I doubt there are many examples of organized terroristgroups on the same side as an established government. Usually terrorists oppose a government.<span id='postcolor'>

Your point is not clear.

If I respond and say that in most ways Kahane Chai (again, show me the terror they've perpetrated) does NOT support government policies, is that clearer?