Mid east

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yeah, but can you threaten someone to be a guard of prisoners?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 16 2002,23:o6)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, but can you threaten someone to be a guard of prisoners?<span id='postcolor'>

Of course you can, but it wasn't necessary.  When the alternative was frostbite on the Eastern front, soldiers competed to get guard duty.

By the way, you can also threaten companies to design/produce camps, gas chambers, crematoria (Siemens, Krups) or print propaganda (Bertelsmann).  But that wasn't necessary either.  Most of those firms competed enthusiastically to get those contracts.

On that same note, while getting back to the Middle East, there have been some successful protests of the British and US companies that produce the bulldozers Israel uses to demolish Palestinian homes.  Apparently, when a home has been brought down, Palestinian school kids say it was D-nined, referring to Caterpillar model D9.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 16 2002,05:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 09 2002,02:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well so they run it, a city has some power you know.

For instance, Jews freaked out that Poles killed some of them in WW2 (or the Poles would have been killed also), so they boycott Polish flights to New York (recently). Talk about war hungry people full of conflict in their blood. Bringing WW2 to NYC.<span id='postcolor'>

Kind of naive.. <span id='postcolor'>

What is naive? You got the facts there...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Siemens and Krup did not build any of the installations for the concentration camps.... they were employing prison workers. The camps were build by locals (kind of surprising). And the only "item" produced for concentration camps was "cyoncali" made by Bayer.

And no, it is also wrong to say they were competing for those jobs instead of fighting on the eastern front. Fact is they didnt even know what was going on on the easter front and noone had the chance to choose between the options. There were racist and sadist suckers in Poland as there were in Germany. If you dont believe that than you havent understood the nature of evil. Or simply look at the May 10, 1993, Time Magazine published that "many Poles served in Hitler's SS. However it is true that polish denounce many jews because were under life-threat themselves, but that can be excused.  

Also, dont forget how "related" the two nations were at that time, East prussia and Schlesien were regions with heavy cultural impact untill deep into Poland. Collaborateurs werent necessarily feeling themselves as polish but half-german.

Those guards were simple collaborateurs, but at that time there were many reasons to collaborate, sympathy is only one of them but there are others just as powerful: anxiety, hunger... Resitance were shot immediately (and the entire village wiped out as a revenge). They were given no chance to choose their fate. Dead or collaborateur, that was the only option, no chance to influence your "career path".

You are drawing a logical but historical incorrect image here. And Poland still nowadays has problems to rework their history (just like the Tscheck republic) but one day this has to be done otherwise those two countries will never get succeed in defeat their Neo-Nazi movements. I take pride in the fact that Germany's extreme right wing parties are by far the least powerful in entire europe.

But I think we are realy getting off-topic here

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Siemens and Krup did not build any of the installations for the concentration camps.<span id='postcolor'>According to the 1955 documentary, Nuit et Brouillard by Alain Resnais, Siemens, Krups and other well known firms competed to design concentration camp facilities.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And no, it is also wrong to say they were competing for those jobs instead of fighting on the eastern front. Fact is they didnt even know what was going on on the easter front and noone had the chance to choose between the options.<span id='postcolor'>Camp guard duty was preferable to seeing action on any front, regardless of whether they knew what was happening there - especially during a very harsh winter.  It was someone's job to choose who goes and who stays to guard.  His choices were not made by lottery.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were racist and sadist suckers in Poland as there were in Germany.  If you dont believe that than you havent understood the nature of evil.<span id='postcolor'>Not only Germany and Poland, but also Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, France, Italy, Holland, Norway, etc...  And if it still didn't exist today elsewhere we probably wouldn't have this thread.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, dont forget how "related" the two nations were at that time, East prussia and Schlesien were regions with heavy cultural impact untill deep into Poland. Collaborateurs werent necessarily feeling themselves as polish but half-german.<span id='postcolor'>Danzig Danzig Danzig...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Resitance were shot immediately (and the entire village wiped out as a revenge).<span id='postcolor'>And who made their bulldozers?

[E6Hotel 0]

2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Oct. 17 2002,022)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And who made their bulldozers? <span id='postcolor'>

Bulldozers don't kill people, people kill people.

Semper Fi

[Bernadotte 0]

lol

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Damn it Bernadotte, I wrote such a long response but at around 11 o'clock central european time OFP-was down and my comment went down the drain. I should always copy-paste the stupid comment into word pad before I start posting it.

My message were clear:

German companies such as Thyssen, Krupp; BMW, Siemens, IG Farben profited from forced-labour but had nothing to do with the construction of the camps. There are many sites on that out there.

To become a guard of a camp you had to be SS or Kapo. There were several of poles to be found in those units (as can be seen on registration lists). Noone becomes SS if he isnt conform with the terrible ideologies.

There were no bulldozers required. The entire village was shot in the neck if only one resistance fighter was found.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">German companies such as Thyssen, Krupp; BMW, Siemens, IG Farben profited from forced-labour but had nothing to do with the construction of the camps.<span id='postcolor'>Construction? No.

Design?  Yes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were no bulldozers required. The entire village was shot in the neck if only one resistance fighter was found.<span id='postcolor'>You mean they didn't have to invent excuses about building permit violations or claim that they didn't know civilians where still in the homes when they demolished them?  ...How efficient!! Didn't the international community complain? Didn't they try to send in observers or impose sanctions?

And what about the orchards and olive groves?  Could the Nazis leave those intact also?  Weren't they afraid that people might hide in them and throw stones or something?

... just trying to stay relevant to the thread topic.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Oct. 16 2002,20:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,00:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were racist and sadist suckers in Poland as there were in Germany. If you dont believe that than you havent understood the nature of evil.<span id='postcolor'>Not only Germany and Poland, but also Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, France, Italy, Holland, Norway, etc... And if it still didn't exist today elsewhere we probably wouldn't have this thread.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes I agree about the racists completely, they are still around. That is not evil, it's just a certain intelligence or lack of... I don't believe in good and evil people!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But this has been taken out of its context.

The argument initally was that Poland and the Tscheck republic still nowadays refuse to rework their own historical understanding. This may be typicall for former communistic nations. It was terrifying to see the historical understanding the east-germans had after the wall fell. No surprise most of the Skin-heads movements (they are pretty dead now) came from the East!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The argument initally was that Poland and the Tscheck republic still nowadays refuse to rework their own historical understanding. This may be typicall for former communistic nations. It was terrifying to see the historical understanding the east-germans had after the wall fell.<span id='postcolor'>

A lot of people from all over the world still nowadays refuse to rework their own historical understanding.  It's not just typical for former communist nations.  How often have we been told the following:

- There was never any such country as Palestine.

- Palestine was desolate and nearly uninhabited before WWI.

- Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left Israel in 1948, of their own free will, refusing to return and leaving their properties behind.

- The Palestinians displaced in 1948 were merely Arabs who had just moved into the region recently to get jobs associated with Jewish settlement.

- There were never any attrocities carried out against Palestinians.

- etc. etc. etc.

...just trying to stay on topic.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Oct. 17 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The argument initally was that Poland and the Tscheck republic still nowadays refuse to rework their own historical understanding. This may be typicall for former communistic nations. It was terrifying to see the historical understanding the east-germans had after the wall fell.<span id='postcolor'>

A lot of people from all over the world still nowadays refuse to rework their own historical understanding.  It's not just typical for former communist nations.  How often have we been told the following:

- There was never any such country as Palestine.

- Palestine was desolate and nearly uninhabited before WWI.

- Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left Israel in 1948, of their own free will, refusing to return and leaving their properties behind.

- The Palestinians displaced in 1948 were merely Arabs who had just moved into the region recently to get jobs associated with Jewish settlement.

- There were never any attrocities carried out against Palestinians.

- etc. etc. etc.

...just trying to stay on topic. <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left Israel in 1948, of their own free will, refusing to return and leaving their properties behind.

<span id='postcolor'>

Who the heck will belive that. I can't remmeber one time in the history where such a large group of people just moved without no reason. The guy who made this propaganda was smoking weat at that time.

[syco 0]

I say let them all kill each other. When it comes to religion, it won't stop until death is the final outcome!

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (syco @ Oct. 26 2002,18:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I say let them all kill each other. When it comes to religion, it won't stop until death is the final outcome!<span id='postcolor'>

syco, if you can't post without flame, don't bother.

24hr restriction.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/27/mideast.blast/index.html

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A suicide bomber blew up near a gas station in the West Bank on Sunday, killing three people and himself, according to Israeli ambulance services.

At least 19 people were injured, two critically, according to emergency rescue workers on the scene. The blast happened around 11:30 a.m. (4:30 a.m. ET) near the Jewish settlement of Ariel.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the militant offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for the blast, according to the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Sad thing is, after all these months of violence, nothing much is changed. The Palestinians havent got what they wanted, and the Isralis still have suicide bombers to condend with.

What has the violence and death achieved?

[Bernadotte 0]

According to this, the days of Sharon's government may already be numbered.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Labour leader and Israeli defence minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, said his party would quit the government unless about $150m allocated to settlers in the West Bank and Gaza was diverted instead to social spending.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mr Sharon said the budget was "not easy" but neither was Israel's situation.  "It is a budget which is essential for stabilising the economy," he said.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If no compromise is found and the coalition government collapses, fresh elections will have to be held in three months' time.<span id='postcolor'>

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Oct. 28 2002,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to this, the days of Sharon's government may already be numbered.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Labour leader and Israeli defence minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, said his party would quit the government unless about $150m allocated to settlers in the West Bank and Gaza was diverted instead to social spending.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mr Sharon said the budget was "not easy" but neither was Israel's situation.  "It is a budget which is essential for stabilising the economy," he said.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If no compromise is found and the coalition government collapses, fresh elections will have to be held in three months' time.<span id='postcolor'>

<span id='postcolor'>

Ya but who is going to run for election Natanahy

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 28 2002,22:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya but who is going to run for election Natanahy  <span id='postcolor'>

Yes, Binyamin Netanyahu will run, and he won't stand a chance.

Binyamin Ben-Eliezer will probably be the next PM if he isn't killed by a settler the way Israel's last Labour PM was.  Actually I would most like to see Haifa's mayor, Amram Mitzna, become Labour's new leader.  However, he would probably have a tougher time defeating Netanyahu.

EDIT:  Just found this...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Amram Mitzna had his first confrontation with Ariel Sharon exactly 20 years ago. Seething over the massacre that Lebanese Phalangist militias had just committed against Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps under Israel’s watch, Mitzna, a former field commander, wrote a damning letter to the Army chief of staff about the man who served as their boss.

HE had “LOST CONFIDENCE†in Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, Mitzna announced. Mitzna was pressured to withdraw the letter by the then prime minister, Menachem Begin—but the controversy helped lead to a commission of inquiry that forced Sharon to quit.<span id='postcolor'>

Will Amram Mitzna be Israel's next Prime Minister?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Labor Party leader and Defense Minister Benjamin Ben Eliezer, whose alliance with Sharon in the governing coalition has brought Labor to its lowest standing in the polls in decades, trails Mitzna by 30 percent in recent surveys. Mitzna says if he’s elected in the November primary, he’ll pull Labor out of Sharon’s government immediately, which could force early elections at the start of 2003.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words, Ben-Eliezer must stay with Sharon AND gain back 30% against his leadership rival within a month for the Sharon government to survive into 2003.  Hmm...  Is that the fat lady I hear singing?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/28/jordan.shooting/index.html

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- A U.S. diplomat was shot dead Monday by an unknown assailant near his home in Amman, Jordan's information minister said.

The Information Ministry said the masked gunman opened fire as Laurence Foley, an official with the U.S. Agency for International Development, was leaving for the U.S. Embassy, striking him with six bullets as he was getting into his car.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Sam Samson 0]

guys like bernadotte will never get it, tex. their worldview overlays their perception like radio static messes up the transmission.

we're at war.

if you want to know how the other side really thinks about issues, I suggest you consult:

www.alminbar.com/

brought to you straight from mecca.

(so don't yak at me that those guys writing there are some kind of radicals. they's not.)

blessings of moslem martyrdom

http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/1478.htm

history from moslem viewpoint

http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/hcihl.htm

and many other goodies.

and don't forget that it was arafat's rejection of barak's offer that brought you your bogieman sharon.

but I might as well talk to a wall...

[fraggit 0]

The Israeli Coalition government has colapsed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's national unity government crumbled today, as Israeli Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer and the other Labor Party ministers left the coalition in a dispute over spending for Jewish settlements. Labor had wanted some money earmarked for the settlements to go to social programs. <span id='postcolor'>

More  here.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 30 2002,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but I might as well talk to a wall... <span id='postcolor'>

walla-alla

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 02 2002,19:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 30 2002,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but I might as well talk to a wall... <span id='postcolor'>

walla-alla <span id='postcolor'>

LOL Bernadotte