Mid east

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well bogo I can not talk of religion on these boards, so I can not respond to your post.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,22:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well bogo I can not talk of religion on these boards, so I can not respond to your post. <span id='postcolor'>

Good boy!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Sep. 08 2002,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Theavonlady what do you expect after almost 2000 years you come back take a land where people

Have benn living for thousands of years<span id='postcolor'>

Historical falacy. There are almost no indigenous people living in Israel for the last 2000 years. However, unlike them, I know my ancestors were here at the time, from the coast of the Mediteranean to the mountains of Moab, Ammon and Bashan. We never stopped praying to return and we still do.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> and you expect to be loved<span id='postcolor'>

Never asked for it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">for mass forcing deportation of Arabs.<span id='postcolor'>

Try being specific. Don't make things up as you go along.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And then you keep them up in refugee camps living under extreme<span id='postcolor'>

They are run solely by the UN. Israel isn't and never was allowed to touch them. Take Jenin. It's been under 100% PA control for almost a decade. Why is there still a refugee camp there? And who kept them in camps (worse than under Israeli rule) from 1948 to 1967?

Try sticking to facts.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">while the settler  some kilometers away have a vila with swimingpool.<span id='postcolor'>

Ask Yasser.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you keep talking about Arafat that has done this and that but what about Sharon do you remmeber the Shatila camp in Beirut.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Christian Phalangists slaughtered up to 800 people there, without Israel's prior awareness that anything like this could happen. The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

BTW, did you know that an estimated 95,000 deaths  occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982? Horrible place!

[theavonlady 2]

Sorry folks. Bedtime for Bonzo!

[bn880 5]

Gee, well we can't blaim Israel for anything, let's hand over the world, pice by piece, dollar by dollar, euro by euro.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Historical falacy. There are almost no indigenous people living in Israel for the last 2000 years. However, unlike them, I know my ancestors were here at the time, from the coast of the Mediteranean to the mountains of Moab, Ammon and Bashan. We never stopped praying to return and we still do.

<span id='postcolor'>

"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years… Then it fell apart…[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 100 BC to the wiping out of Juda in 586 BC, we arrive at [only] a 414-year Jewish rule."

Ilene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the land of Canaan."

http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm

And read on page 199 .

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Never asked for it.

<span id='postcolor'>

But you love coming with links that show how much the arabas hate jews like the felling is not mutual.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Try being specific. Don't make things up as you go along.

<span id='postcolor'>

Have you forgat why their are called REFUGE CAMPS like the ones in gaza west bank in lebanon.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

They are run solely by the UN. Israel isn't and never was allowed to touch them. Take Jenin. It's been under 100% PA control for almost a decade. Why is there still a refugee camp there?

Try sticking to facts.

<span id='postcolor'>

Fact is you are kicking people out sow you can build settelments. Israles has hand grip on palestinian economy

Nothing goes in or out without them knowing it like the taxes on merchandise wich israel is holding them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

And who kept them in camps (worse than under Israeli rule) from 1948 to 1967?

<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh i forgat when the jews arrived in palestina it was comlitly deserted.

Wasn’t Palestine a wasteland before the Jews started immigrating there?

Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said,’ all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation."

John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel:

A Challenge To Justice."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Ask Yasser.

<span id='postcolor'>

Sow Arafat beged the jews to take their land. COME ON

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Yes. Christian Phalangists slaughtered up to 800 people there, without Israel's prior awareness that anything like this could happen. The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

BTW, did you know that an estimated 95,000 deaths  occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982? Horrible place!

<span id='postcolor'>

Sow if i had a mad dog and i let him lose knowing very well what he will do then i am not responsoble.

http://www.sabra-shatila.be/english/

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 07 2002,01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets kick both sides out and populate it with Communists! Then there are no religious problems  

Just a carazy idea. And Sam Samson, reading your posts, it all most sounds like you are saying we should exterminate the every muslim on this planet. This is both Genocide, and Ethnic cleansing.<span id='postcolor'>

you guys know no nuance.

and as to populate with communists: you obviously forgot that gamal abd el nasser of egypt, plus jordan and syria attacked israel in 67 with about 2 billion of '67-dollars worth of soviet hardware. he was properly funded by the commies.

the arabs lost anyway.

and considering the close ties arafat had to now defunct communist east germany, (he explained to them how during the day they throw stones and at night they deploy their snipers), I would say, the commies had their throw. and failed miserably.

I still say: buy the palestinians out, resettle them in jordan.

then start a coop, building desalination plants on the mediterranean. irrigate vast regions of desert on both sides of the jordan river and make them into agricultural zones (like israel has been doing all along).

then palestinians, israelis and all peaceloving people in the region can focus their attention on making some money and bettering their lives.

but it won't happen.

islam in the way...

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well can I agree with somebody who talks about religion in their post? If so I agree with sam, if not I still agree with sam, but just do not say it.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 08 2002,17:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still say: buy the palestinians out, resettle them in jordan.<span id='postcolor'>

ROFL, this is what the Jews must be aiming for, a buy out. They have already destroyed all business, ports, many schools, police infrastructure... in Palestine. So now, ho ho ho, so cheap to buy the rats out eh Sam.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,20:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then what was it before the 6 day war, when settlements didn't exist, STUPID?<span id='postcolor'>

Umm... what was what, genius?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,21:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There never existed a geopolitcial Arab entity named Palestine before the Oslo agreements.<span id='postcolor'>

The following quotes can be found in the 1922 Mandate for Palestine at the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.<span id='postcolor'>

lol

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 09 2002,01:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,20:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then what was it before the 6 day war, when settlements didn't exist, STUPID?<span id='postcolor'>

Umm... what was what, genius?<span id='postcolor'>

Behave children!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why were there so many suicide bombers in the 2 years right after the Oslo Agreements were signed in 1993, when Israel withdrew from all agreed upon areas and the PA set up it's own rule, governing the vast majority of Palestinians?<span id='postcolor'>

Right after Oslo? Lest we forget, the first Palestinian suicide bomber struck in Israel on April 6, 1994, more that 200 days after Oslo, but just 40 days after a Jewish terrorist shot dead 29 Palestinians and wounded over 100 others while they were praying in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque during the holy month of Ramadan.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Things are getting heated, but things like this do. If this happend in your country, you would not support the terriost.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,22:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christian Phalangists slaughtered up to 800 people there, without Israel's prior awareness that anything like this could happen.<span id='postcolor'>

But according to the official Israeli version:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel.  No Israeli was directly responsible for the events which occurred in the camps. But the Commission asserted that Israel had indirect responsibility for the massacre since the I.D.F. held the area, Mr. Begin was found responsible for not exercising greater involvement and awareness in the matter of introducing the Phalangists into the camps.  Mr. Sharon was found responsible for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge when he approved the entry of the Phalangists into the camps as well as not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed.<span id='postcolor'>

Let's face it, there's quite a big difference between not having "prior awareness" of the danger and "ignoring the danger."

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 09 2002,03:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If this happend in your country, you would not support the terriost. <span id='postcolor'>

I do not support terrorism by any individuals, organisations or governments.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 09 2002,03:14)

If this happend in your country, you would not support the terriost.

I do not support terrorism by any individuals, organisations or governments<span id='postcolor'>

So you do not support Palestine?

[Col. Kurtz 0]

We basically have 205 pages of posts trying to determine who is the 'right' force in this conflict. To get a better view of this conflict, for the moment take out religion altogether, take out the holy land and all that. Lets instead just look at the problem and the conflict by who is doing what. PALASTINIA-Sending Suicide bombers over into Israel to attack mainly civilian targets. These attacks result in high civilian casaulties. Palestinian terrorist orgenisations hope that these mounting casaulties will help blackmail into giving Palastinia a state of their own with no Isralis in it. They are wrong becasue when terrorist attacks acour ISRAEL-Sends over gunships to attack targets in civilian areas which just happen to have civilians in them who get killed. They send over tanks and infantry to 'clear' out cities and refugee camps of terrorists by basicaly trampling over them. With each of these occupations conditions in the cities worsen. It is eastimated that 70%of all Palestinians live below the povery line. Palestinia was wrong forst, but Israel is taking the wrong approach to end terrorism. The more civilians killed, the more terrorists bred.

[bn880 5]

Palestine

You forgot the constant occupation, and settlements.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Hey, I cant look too anti-Israel or I'll get skinned alive!

Edit:I did mention occupation, check one of the last lines and you shall see 'occupation'.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 09 2002,04:o7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 09 2002,03:14)

If this happend in your country, you would not support the terriost.  

I do not support terrorism by any individuals, organisations or governments<span id='postcolor'>

So you do not support Palestine? <span id='postcolor'>

Anyone with one eye knows that Palestine and terrorism are not the same thing.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 09 2002,11:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyone with one eye knows that Palestine and terrorism are not the same thing. <span id='postcolor'>

Fortunately, some of us have both eyes intact.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 09 2002,04:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinia was wrong forst...<span id='postcolor'>

I realise it's difficult to imagine an on-going conflict having it's roots in political decisions made 85 years ago, but that's what we've got here.  Britain had no right to make those decisions (Balfour Declaration) about a foreign land, especially when they directly contradicted earlier decisions (Sykes-Picot Agreement) about liberating Palestine from Ottoman rule.

So actually, Britain was wrong first.

But lucky for them, they stepped out of the picture in 1948.  In fact, the British warned the US about enormous troubles that would be caused if they supported efforts to declare the state of Israel on the land of the Palestinians.  President Truman responded to the warning by saying:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands of who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.  -- Harry S. Truman<span id='postcolor'>

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Pear pressure?

And sorry if any of my historical facts are out of place, hey! Im only 13, what do you expect? Palestine was bad first in the sense they were the first to start attacking civilians, at least in modern times.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 09 2002,11:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 09 2002,04:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinia was wrong forst...<span id='postcolor'>

I realise it's difficult to imagine an on-going conflict having it's roots in political decisions made 85 years ago, but that's what we've got here.  Britain had no right to make those decisions (Balfour Declaration) about a foreign land, especially when they directly contradicted earlier decisions (Sykes-Picot Agreement) about liberating Palestine from Ottoman rule.

So actually, Britain was wrong first.

But lucky for them, they stepped out of the picture in 1948.  In fact, the British warned the US about enormous troubles that would be caused if they supported efforts to declare the state of Israel on the land of the Palestinians.  President Truman responded to the warning by saying:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands of who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.  -- Harry S. Truman<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

About the fault of Britain: The British Empire was colapsing courtesy of Herr Hitler, another piece of his handy work was the Holocaust. The world felt for the Jewish Nation then, everybody wanted to give them a state in the middle-east. Britain tried to slowly set up the partition state but came under attack by Jew and Arab alike. With dwindling men and resources for the rest of the Empire propper a quick soloution was come to and Britain was forced out by the Israelis.

Not really our fault, but the terrible circumstances of the time, not much has changed either!