Mid east

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 07 2002,02:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets kick both sides out and populate it with Communists! Then there are no religious problems  

Just a carazy idea. And Sam Samson, reading your posts, it all most sounds like you are saying we should exterminate the every muslim on this planet. This is both Genocide, and Ethnic cleansing.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol god idea let's convert evry body to commies. I am shure that will solve the problem

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 06 2002,19:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we gotta get into their mindset, find out how they are thinking and be prepared.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, and the best way to do this is to imagine the following:

- you were born and raised in a refugee camp overlooking a village that your forefathers called home for 700 years, but that you may never return to;

- the mosque your grandfathers built is now a disco;

- your father was tortured, mother was raped, sister's throat was cut, brother was maimed by rubber coated steal bullets, wife died giving birth to your child because her ambulance couldn't get through the third checkpoint and your dwelling was bulldozed twice;

- every last inch of what's left of your country is being settled by foreigners who continue to arrive, mostly from your oppressor's greatest sponsor.

Ok... now that we've got ourselves into their mindset how do we prepare ourselves against it (without sacrificing an inch of what was rightfully theirs in the first place)?

[Noodles067 0]

Gee Bernadotte, u seem to know what ur talking about. Now do the same thing for the Jewish Immigrants that came from Russia and Poland in the 19th century. The ones that always lived in Safed, Jerusalem, Hebron.

Explain what they saw when they got to Palestine and built it to be Israel... About how some of them tried to befriend Arabs and did, how others hated Arabs. About having survived NAzi Death Camps and coming to Israel. ABout leaving your parents and your family at a very young age to build a Jewish National State, based on egalitarian principles (then not now i know). About the wonderful Arab uprisings, about the British supporting the Imam of Jerusalem, who supported HItler. You all seem to know so well.

OR about the girl that went to the supermarket coz her mum was making chicken and she didnt have the right ingredients. But then she got blown up. Go on i know u can do it more elaborate than i can, but I think its worth considering isnt it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok... now that we've got ourselves into their mindset how do we prepare ourselves against it (without sacrificing an inch of what was rightfully theirs in the first place)?<span id='postcolor'>

What was rightfully theirs??? According to whom?

Man i spent hours working thru the first 50 pages of this thread and at times I felt sick about what some people write. Honestly, I mean everyone is not willing to listen to what others have to say. On both sides. But I think peopple should stop dismissing everything Israel does by saying its propaganda. Come on!  

ANd i think its ignorant to say that Arabs disliking Jews strongly in general is not a falsehood. If you look at Arab Media, state-sponsored papers, you can find it everywhere.

ANother thing is, centers like MEMRI, the adl, and the simon wiesenthal center can not be discarded as propaganda tools. They are used as sources in academic papers and reports. I know so are www.palestinemediawatch.org and other sites liek that 1 (i made that 1 up so if link isnt working i apologize). However, assuming that bbc and cnn are objective or pro-israel is merely baseless chit chat. Do you guys ever wonder who is filming things when they happen in the West bank. Its not CNN Inc. Cameraman tm(incl. Camera, all limbs are moveable!!, it is a person with their own beliefs and surprise surprise most Cameraman and photographers workign there are Arab, or Palestinian or whatever.

The point to my post? Truth is a subjective term, but do not be afraid to alter it, once you hold something to be the truth. And I generally hint at people thinking that what Israel is doing is wrong (i for one am not happy with children and civilians dying, no matter what side). The way most Israelis perceive it is that their civilians are being slaughtered by Palestinians, because they feel that the Jews have no right to be there. Hence it has become an existential battle for both sides.

But also people shouldnt discard the fact that the PA is corrupt, and that raising your citizens to hate another people is no way to start the long road towars peace. PHEW

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Now do the same thing for the Jewish Immigrants that came from Russia and Poland in the 19th century. The ones that always lived in Safed, Jerusalem, Hebron.

Explain what they saw when they got to Palestine and built it to be Israel... About how some of them tried to befriend Arabs and did, how others hated Arabs

<span id='postcolor'>

Nice ges’t tell me how do you whant to be greated when you come to a country with plan to kick

out the people who are living there and make it to you own state. With flowers and and people are chering  because you gonna kick them out of their own home.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

bout having survived NAzi Death Camps and coming to Israel

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes i agree with you it was a very tragic time for the jews. But going to inflict missery and pain on other people dosen’t make it right. There is a saying: Two wrongs dosen’t make it wright.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

About the wonderful Arab uprisings, about the British supporting the Imam of Jerusalem, who supported Hitler

<span id='postcolor'>

You forget why they supported Hitler it’s because they where a english colony and evrything that was not english sounded good for them as they where tired to live as english colony.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You all seem to know so well.

OR about the girl that went to the supermarket coz her mum was making chicken and she didnt have the right ingredients. But then she got blown up. Go on i know u can do it more elaborate than i can, but I think its worth considering isnt it?

<span id='postcolor'>

The same thing i can say about palestinian who get shoot becuase they whant to buy some bread but there is a corfue.Or you get shoot by a tank and idf is claiming it  as a mistake.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

ANd i think its ignorant to say that Arabs disliking Jews strongly in general is not a falsehood.

<span id='postcolor'>

I am hearing that over and over again from the Israelys. But are you gonna tell me that the Jewish people are loving the arabs. And in the media the only thing that they do is spreading love about the arabs.

COME ON

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

However, assuming that bbc and cnn are objective or pro-israel is merely baseless chit chat. Do you guys ever wonder who is filming things when they happen in the West bank. Its not CNN Inc. Cameraman tm(incl. Camera, all limbs are moveable!! , it is a person with their own beliefs and surprise surprise most Cameraman and photographers workign there are Arab, or Palestinian or whatever.

<span id='postcolor'>

Sow is filming in Israel.  

Have you read what our peace talks.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,09:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Truth is a subjective term, but do not be afraid to alter it, once you hold something to be the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

There is your problem, there is nothing worse than considering truth to be more than one thing. And thinking you can change it.

[Noodles067 0]

i was merely poitning out that there is as far as i know not an absolute truth to any situation. apart from the fact that we all will die someday. Thats all. It was more of a philosophical comment. Plus I think its a valid comment. COnsider this situation: I take something from you because i believe it is mine. You think it is yours therefore we are both from our own points of view arguing over something which we believe belongs to us personally. That is true for you and it is true for me. So in this example we both hold a different truth about the same situation.

And Bogo about ur way of reasoning where two wrongs dont make a right. First get ur stats right about  how many people inhabited Palestine in the 19th century. About chasing people from land that didnt happen then.

Then u tell me two wrongs dont make a right. After this u happily tell and find an excuse for why the great Mufti of Jerusalem at that time supported Hitler. How about that dude? That doesnt add up.

I just dont understand why everyone seems to be convinced that Israel is always to blame for everything. You guys all seem to be willing to cut the Palestinians some slack, wether it be on who tells the truth or finding an explanation for attrocities. While this is completely lacking towards the Israeli side.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 08 2002,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ...the great Mufti of Jerusalem at that time supported Hitler. How about that dude?<span id='postcolor'>

...So did JFK's dad, Joseph Kennedy, when he was the US ambassador to Britain.  Does that give Israel the right to slaughter his children too dude?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 08 2002,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just dont understand why everyone seems to be convinced that Israel is always to blame for everything.<span id='postcolor'>

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">COnsider this situation: I take something from you because i believe it is mine. You think it is yours therefore we are both from our own points of view arguing over something which we believe belongs to us personally. That is true for you and it is true for me. So in this example we both hold a different truth about the same situation.<span id='postcolor'> But that can not be, either one of you is wrong, or one had ownership of the object before the other, or it's a partial ownership of both parties.

You are basig your example on "ownership" which is never really a fact, it's an assumption accepted by society, different cultures have different views on it. It does not however change any facts or any truth.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

First get ur stats right about how many people inhabited Palestine in the 19th century

<span id='postcolor'>

The mythic "land without people for a people without land"was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919.

http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

About chasing people from land that didnt happen then.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh sow those refuge camps in Jordan and in Libanon full of palestinians come from where.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

After this u happily tell and find an excuse for why the great Mufti of Jerusalem at that time supported Hitler

<span id='postcolor'>

I diden’t excuse it i explain it. For the colonys in the middle east the germans where a saviour from the English colony. They thought the life will be better under german maybe even get independence. They diden’t know the

Nazi’s as the european did. And in their eye the english where the main enemy for them what better way to get rid of your enemy then to side with his enemy.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You guys all seem to be willing to cut the Palestinians some slack, wether it be on who tells the truth or finding an explanation for attrocities. While this is completely lacking towards the Israeli side.

<span id='postcolor'>

You can’t expect to be a ocupier and at the same time the be the inecent. It’s ammazing how can israel say that they are threaten from the arabs when israel’s army has all the firepower it needs to destroy the rest of the arab country’s and they have prove it. And they are the only on in the middle east who has nuclear bombs.

And their main allies US has military bases in most of the arab countrys.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,15:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee Bernadotte, u seem to know what ur talking about. Now do the same thing for the Jewish Immigrants that came from Russia and Poland in the 19th century...  (blah blah blah)  Go on i know u can do it more elaborate than i can, but I think its worth considering isnt it?<span id='postcolor'>

Why is 19th century Jewish immigration to Palestine worth considering to get into the mindset of Sam Samson's 12,000,000 madrasah students?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,15:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What was rightfully theirs??? According to whom?<span id='postcolor'>

Umm... their property.  ...According to the Ottoman land Code of 1858.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,15:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ANother thing is, centers like MEMRI, the adl, and the simon wiesenthal center can not be discarded as propaganda tools.<span id='postcolor'>

And what about when the Nazis compiled and published every statement made by Jews or Jewish organisations that could possibly be interpreted as critical or hateful of 1930s Germany?  Wasn't that propaganda too?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,15:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...surprise surprise most Cameraman and photographers workign there are Arab, or Palestinian or whatever.<span id='postcolor'>

Not this one.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Noodles067 @ Sep. 07 2002,15:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...raising your citizens to hate another people is no way to start the long road towars peace.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you saying that when MEMRI exposes Israel's citizens to the hate in Arab media that they are promoting love for another people?  ...or are you being a hypocrite?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I wish more people would support Isreal here, Isreal is clearly in the right. Any country that supports suicide bombing is most likely in the wrong, and I can not believe that yall support a country like Palestine.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

You want to know the truth DOR, I dont support any of them. I dont support Palestine becuase of the tactics they use to try and blackmail Israel with, and Israel I dont support becuase of their many 'occupations' of land, killing of civilians themselves etc. etc. Palestine was in the wrong first, but the way Israel repnds is VERY wrong. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Palestine, sending people out to bomb civilian and sometime military areas. High casaulties in the innocent, bad.

Israel, helicopter gunship raids that normally kill a few terrorists and a heap more civilians. They go into Palestinian towns and cities and sit they demolishing them while the civilians suffer. BAD BAD BAD BAD.

They are both like incolent children, and its time New Zealand with its might army of 6,000 went and smacked their bottom!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,15:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish more people would support Isreal here, Isreal is clearly in the right. Any country that supports suicide bombing is most likely in the wrong, and I can not believe that yall support a country like Palestine. <span id='postcolor'>

DoR would you defend your country if it was invaded? What if you had no army to join? no resistance fighters? Palestine is a country, it isn't part of Israel, and even the Israelis don't consider it to be.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 08 2002,16:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and its time New Zealand with its might army of 6,000 went and smacked their bottom!<span id='postcolor'>

maybe we could help you with our SSN and solve the problem there for a loooooooooonnnnnng time ........ j/K

[bogo 0]

Here is something for you DOR wich you don’t belive that the palestinian have right to theyr own country.

Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800BC, the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanities.

"Between 3000 and 1100BC, Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan… Those would remain in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century AD] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks an old Canaanite tribes."

The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine

"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years… Then it fell apart…[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 100 BC to the wiping out of Juda in 586 BC, we arrive at [only] a 414-year Jewish rule."

Ilene BeaHow long has Palestine been specifically Arab country?

"Palestine became a predominantly Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics – including its name in Arabic, Filastin – became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance…In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic…Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation…Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174, 606 against a total of 1,033,314."

Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

tty, "Arab and Jew in the land of Canaan."

Wasn’t Palestine a wasteland before the Jews started immigrating there?

Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said,’ all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation."

John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel:

A Challenge To Justice."

From http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well bogo I can not respond to your post in the way I want to.  Also for the 100000000000 time, Plaestine is part of Isreal, and where do you get thgis info that most Isrealies do not consider Palestine to be a part of their country?

Welcome to page 200.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,20:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well bogo I can not respond to your post in the way I want to.  Also for the 100000000000 time, Plaestine is part of Isreal, and where do you get thgis info that most Isrealies do not consider Palestine to be a part of their country?

Welcome to page 200.<span id='postcolor'>

PALESTINE HAS NEVER BEEN PART OF ISRAEL! Stop saying that it is! Under article 5 of the UN charter a nation has the right to armed self defence, Palestine has that right but no real means of exercising it.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Does a nation have the right to support suicide bombers?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 08 2002,05:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

Then what was it before the 6 day war, when settlements didn't exist, STUPID?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,20:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does a nation have the right to support suicide bombers?<span id='postcolor'>

Suicide bombers are the product of desperation.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 08 2002,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,20:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does a nation have the right to support suicide bombers?<span id='postcolor'>

Suicide bombers are the product of desperation.<span id='postcolor'>

Whey were there so many suicide bombers in the 2 years right after the Oslo Agreements were signed in 1993, when Israel withdrew from all agreed upon areas and the PA set up it's own rule, governing the vast majority of Palestinians?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 08 2002,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 08 2002,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 08 2002,20:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does a nation have the right to support suicide bombers?<span id='postcolor'>

Suicide bombers are the product of desperation.<span id='postcolor'>

Whey were there so many suicide bombers in the 2 years right after the Oslo Agreements were signed in 1993, when Israel withdrew from all agreed upon areas and the PA set up it's own rule, governing the vast majority of Palestinians?<span id='postcolor'>

The thing is; as I see it, Palestine not being a free nation is a massive insult, an offence which all occupied nations respond to with 'terrorism'.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 08 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The thing is; as I see it, Palestine not being a free nation is a massive insult, an offence which all occupied nations respond to with 'terrorism'.<span id='postcolor'>

hell yeah .. a minority of the french population did the same during ww2 , i mean basic terrorism , not suicide bombing ...... french weren't that despaired

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 08 2002,20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 08 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The thing is; as I see it, Palestine not being a free nation is a massive insult, an offence which all occupied nations respond to with 'terrorism'.<span id='postcolor'>

hell yeah .. a minority of the french population did the same during ww2 , i mean basic terrorism , not suicide bombing ...... french weren't that despaired<span id='postcolor'>

France was happy under Hitler was it? The resistance was wrong to kill Germans? I can't beleive you said that!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 08 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The thing is; as I see it, Palestine not being a free nation is a massive insult, an offence which all occupied nations respond to with 'terrorism'.<span id='postcolor'>

Then why didn't they "terrorize" Jordan and Egypt between 1948 and 1967, when they were kept in the most squalid and horrible of conditions?