Close Quarter Combat is impossible in Arma2

[TimRiceSE 10]

Its a sandbox game.

you can have a hell of a lot of fun playing around and making something of your own.

Didnt you ever have lego, or meccano as a kid?

[An Fiach 10]

Well, if you don't mind allseeing and allhearing enemy, than config your values to former one and enjoy inability to use stealth.

Seems to me that some people's idea of stealth is stomping through the brsh like an elephant in a china shop.

[nouty 10]

The main problems with CQB are:

1. Movement speed. The walking speed is just way too slow to clear buildings or even streets efficiently and while running, you can't shoot and you move way too fast anyway.

2. Throwing grenades, smoke etc. We really need a way to determine how powerful we want the throw to be, you can only throw with full power in A2.

3. Inconsistent AI. Sometimes the AI is really good, but other times it will start facing another direction for example, in the middle of combat (AI being behind a corner, not in line of fire.) Also, they don't stay in formation for squat in urban areas, even with the fixes in the latest betas. You can see enemies with their backs turned against you all the time, even if you've just been firing your weapon. Not even talking about the AI inside buildings :P

4. World design. There's no real cities or towns in A2 that would make you do urban fighting in the first place. Why go in and fight street to street when you can just lay above the town on a hill and kill everyone from there? We need bigger towns so you can't just do that. Also the town design is pretty bad. There's that threaded knee high grass everywhere even in the middle of towns, where the enemy AI has their only real chance, lay in wait and shoot you when you're close, cos you can't see them.

It would be a dream if the AI could intelligently use buildings on their own, to get a better line of sight or line of fire to you. Also, placing AI units inside buildings should be made easier and they should be aware of windows and doorways where they can shoot out of so they would seek a line of sight to the enemy if they hear gunfire outside.

[jw custom 56]

I think if BIS actually got the unit skill slider working so the AI's dispersion is high when slider is on minimum and low when on maximum it would fix a lot of issues. Maybe a slider for both detection and dispersion :eek:

Then those who prefere AK47 snipers can set slider to maximum and those who want AI to not being able to hit anything simply set it on minimum :)

[Bouben 3]

Seems to me that some people's idea of stealth is stomping through the brsh like an elephant in a china shop.

Jesus ******* Christ. Are you kidding me? You think, I play like the Rambo or something? Well, I have some experience from airsoft games, and I was able to be more stealthy in real than in ARMA 2.

I am not talking about behavior caused by not experienced player, but about BUGS (yes, you see it right).

Wake up. I am not a stupid teenager who argue on the basis of holywood war movies. Pure rationality and logic is taking point here. Or can YOU see through thick growth? I can't. And even if somebody shoot at me, I wouldn't be able to PINPOINT him and give him a headshot in few seconds. And if I spot an enemy and start to shoot at him, I wouldn't be able to track him by my eyes through dense grass and shoot him precisely again. And THAT IS WHAT AI DOES.

I hate when someone's criticising ARMA without any reason, but what I hate much more is when somebody's blindly defending this game's plain bugs and untuned features.

My nerves.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

3. Inconsistent AI. Sometimes the AI is really good, but other times it will start facing another direction for example, in the middle of combat (AI being behind a corner, not in line of fire.) Also, they don't stay in formation for squat in urban areas, even with the fixes in the latest betas. You can see enemies with their backs turned against you all the time, even if you've just been firing your weapon. Not even talking about the AI inside buildings :P

Yes, AI really needs some kind of decision making, which direction is the most important now.

They sometimes really look in totally unnecessary directions, even if you command them to watch only the one direction tho.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Bouben

[Zipper5 74]

The stealth isn't perfect but that doesn't make it broken. In fact, it's pretty realistic from what I've seen. Enemies are virtually blind at night without nightvision goggles, silenced weapons work as they should (shoot them in the head and they don't make a noise. That's what attracts nearby soldiers, not the shot) and even with nightvision goggles they aren't godlike. It could benefit from some improvement, but I wouldn't say it needs it right this moment.

[Bouben 3]

I think if BIS actually got the unit skill slider working so the AI's dispersion is high when slider is on minimum and low when on maximum it would fix a lot of issues. Maybe a slider for both detection and dispersion :eek:

Then those who prefere AK47 snipers can set slider to maximum and those who want AI to not being able to hit anything simply set it on minimum :)

Yes, I think that possibility to have user-friendly access to this features is one of the ways, how to make ARMA 2 better.

[jw custom 56]

The stealth isn't perfect but that doesn't make it broken. In fact, it's pretty realistic from what I've seen. Enemies are virtually blind at night without nightvision goggles, silenced weapons work as they should (shoot them in the head and they don't make a noise. That's what attracts nearby soldiers, not the shot) and even with nightvision goggles they aren't godlike. It could benefit from some improvement, but I wouldn't say it needs it right this moment.

Their tracking skills ain't effected by darkness and they are also just as accurate at night as in daylight that be without NV. This is again the same problem as with the unit skill slider which does next to nothing.

Also in darkness they are less skilled at detecting you which is good, but when flares are used and everything is lit up they should be able to detect you much better. When i play with AI team mates at night and i use flares the enemy stand out clear but my team mates doesn't see them. Then i fire and the enemy fire back and first then my AI mates see them.

It would be really nice with some unit skill settings that actually worked.

[An Fiach 10]

Jesus ******* Christ. Are you kidding me? You think, I play like the Rambo or something? Well, I have some experience from airsoft games, and I was able to be more stealthy in real than in ARMA 2.

I am not talking about behavior caused by not experienced player, but about BUGS (yes, you see it right).

Wake up. I am not a stupid teenager who argue on the basis of holywood war movies. Pure rationality and logic is taking point here. Or can YOU see through thick growth? I can't. And even if somebody shoot at me, I wouldn't be able to PINPOINT him and give him a headshot in few seconds. And if I spot an enemy and start to shoot at him, I wouldn't be able to track him by my eyes through dense grass and shoot him precisely again. And THAT IS WHAT AI DOES.

I hate when someone's criticising ARMA without any reason, but what I hate much more is when somebody's blindly defending this game's plain bugs and untuned features.

My nerves.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Yes, AI really needs some kind of decision making, which direction is the most important now.

They sometimes really look in totally unnecessary directions, even if you command them to watch only the one direction tho.

Did you really just post airsoft experiences as a basis for your logic? Also, nowhere did I defend the game's bugs (mentioned bugs in the first or second reply to you), dead men should not be able to tell their team mates where you are. Given your response and emotional state, I think it would have been better if you were 14.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

Their tracking skills ain't effected by darkness and they are also just as accurate at night as in daylight that be without NV. This is again the same problem as with the unit skill slider which does next to nothing.

Also in darkness they are less skilled at detecting you which is good, but when flares are used and everything is lit up they should be able to detect you much better. When i play with AI team mates at night and i use flares the enemy stand out clear but my team mates doesn't see them. Then i fire and the enemy fire back and first then my AI mates see them.

It would be really nice with some unit skill settings that actually worked.

I think this may be an issue with reveal, notice how often times you will spot enemy but your team mates never know about them?

[Bouben 3]

Did you really just post airsoft experiences as a basis for your logic? Also, nowhere did I defend the game's bugs (mentioned bugs in the first or second reply to you), dead men should not be able to tell their team mates where you are. Given your response and emotional state, I think it would have been better if you were 14.

Well, I see that there is no possible way, how to continue with you. Claim what you want, but you haven't posted any relevant argument. Btw, smart move in the end.

[maturin 12]

Something I've noticed is that the AI's often supernatural powers of detection are a trait that the player shares. If you are hit by a bullet on a normal difficulty setting and open the map before you hit the ground, your killer will be marked out as a red dot so you can Revert and get him next time. Likewise, once an enemy is known you can scan for him through whole swathes of foliage with the command menu.

[nkenny 1057]

Something I've noticed is that the AI's often supernatural powers of detection are a trait that the player shares. If you are hit by a bullet on a normal difficulty setting and open the map before you hit the ground, your killer will be marked out as a red dot so you can Revert and get him next time. Likewise, once an enemy is known you can scan for him through whole swathes of foliage with the command menu.

Play on Expert or at least Veteran difficulties. On easier game modes I believe the player 'shares' the sensitivity parameters of the AI. Though how the player acts on them is up to him.

-k

Edit:

In response to the original thread I find that the AI does not have very mature MOUT skills; mainly because it does not have a CQB skill set avaliable. Instead it attempts to respond utilize its default "abstracted" contact behavior. Behavior which is anything but appropriate for an urban environment!

PvP CQB can be very satisfying, albeit hampered by some animations (slowmo ballerina step-across for instance) and the unpredictable (read nearly-useless) nature of hand-grenades.

For PvE Arma2. Try to keep smaller formations of AI inside the city; while keeping the larger (more mobile) ones outside the cities for a better experience.

-k2

Edited December 1, 2009 by NkEnNy

[fabrizio_t 58]

I'm not sure that raising the tank's threat level is enough either.

In my scenario, I have 1 Abrams approaching a village at limited speed to give Opfor ample time to get set and react. Representing Opfor I have 1 full Infantry squad just to the right of the road and 1 AT squad just to the left, thats 6 AT guys in total while I watch as civilian + Troopmon.

Opfor hears the tank well before the Abrams see's them and most of them start to take cover to side of the roads behind fences and what not and there are orders of "target that tank" and "attack that tank". The leader of the Infantry squad always plants himself squarely down in the middle of the street with his gun trained on the Abrams. Generally 1-2 AT's actually get fired and guys that initially had good cover are now doing standup/run/crouch/repeat until they jiggy themselves right out of cover and into fire. Most of the AT squad are laying prone with rifles out just to the side of a house where they enjoy minimal coverage.

I've run this about 8-9 times and Tank has always won with maximum damage of about 0.4.

Imo, with no other threats involved, good cover should top priority and it should be gotten to quickly. Leaving that cover should be a critical decision and not done lightly as thats usually when the AI were getting mowed down. Lastly, the AT guys gotta fire when they have a clear shot and not even think about going for their rifles.

Hi, would you mind to share this simple mission?

Wishing to make some simple test.

[froggyluv 2136]

Hi, would you mind to share this simple mission?

Wishing to make some simple test.

Oh boy do I owe an apology here. I committed the cardinal sin of having an AI mod running with this first test and that is the reason for the lack of Infantry AT proficiency.

Tested again without Zeus mod and the AT Infantry won an astounding 8-0 over the Abrams!

Tested again with Zeus mod, and the Abrams won 8-0. Not sure why, but the AT soldiers are definitely more reluctant to fire using this mod.

Both tests were using the latest Betas and no alterations to the cfg

My apologies again to BI.

Here is the test mission http://www.filefront.com/15038349/tank%2520infantry%2520test.utes.pbo

[fabrizio_t 58]

Oh boy do I owe an apology here. I committed the cardinal sin of having an AI mod running with this first test and that is the reason for the lack of Infantry AT proficiency.

Tested again without Zeus mod and the AT Infantry won an astounding 8-0 over the Abrams!

Tested again with Zeus mod, and the Abrams won 8-0. Not sure why, but the AT soldiers are definitely more reluctant to fire using this mod.

Both tests were using the latest Betas and no alterations to the cfg

My apologies again to BI.

Here is the test mission http://www.filefront.com/15038349/tank%2520infantry%2520test.utes.pbo

You sinner! :D

[Hachiman 10]

There's no real cities or towns in A2 that would make you do urban fighting in the first place. Why go in and fight street to street when you can just lay above the town on a hill and kill everyone from there? We need bigger towns so you can't just do that. Also the town design is pretty bad. There's that threaded knee high grass everywhere even in the middle of towns, where the enemy AI has their only real chance, lay in wait and shoot you when you're close, cos you can't see them.

I highly recommend installing the Avgani map if your interested in simulating realistic urban combat. The vast majority of houses and buildings can be entered and rooftops can be accessed via stairs or ladders.

The multistorey buildings are a snipers paradise.

H0FCyWNIljc

[rome 0]

I am really happy about this thread as i think Arma series never really got CQC right. Some smalls modifications though would make it more enjoyable i think.

Tell me what you think of it:

-Smaller weapon collision (M16 in house not handy, MP5 should be).

-Deactivate weapon collision when weapon UNNAIMED. Navigating in house would be more handy.

-Better grenade aiming system.

Only with these small modif, the Close combat would become more enjoyable.

*Dream Modifications*

-Kick in door or blasting it with Pump.

-Going in house through window.

-When sprinting, if you press crouch, you do a very small 'slide' on the ground.

-Swat 4 arresting system. If an enemy is stunned by flashbang, gas grenade or a non lethal weapon, you can arrest him.

[rome 0]

Do you know if ACE2 is going to make Close quarter combat more handy?

[instagoat 133]

I´ve stopped using Avgani for CQC, because what happens frequently is that the AI reverts to Arma 1 style bug-outs. They get stuck, bunch up, don´t go into the narrow back alleys and ignore killzones completely, even if there are obvious ways around it.

The more open nature of the towns in Chernarus works much better for me.

[Protegimus 0]

Oh boy do I owe an apology here. I committed the cardinal sin of having an AI mod running with this first test and that is the reason for the lack of Infantry AT proficiency.

Tested again without Zeus mod and the AT Infantry won an astounding 8-0 over the Abrams!

Tested again with Zeus mod, and the Abrams won 8-0. Not sure why, but the AT soldiers are definitely more reluctant to fire using this mod.

Both tests were using the latest Betas and no alterations to the cfg

My apologies again to BI.

Here is the test mission http://www.filefront.com/15038349/tank%2520infantry%2520test.utes.pbo

Hi froggyluv,

I tested your mission, thx for the feedback.

I noticed the majority of the RPG gunners in your mission have very low skill settings, while the tank crew appear to be at the default.

I expect this is producing a markedly different result to vanilla ArmA as you have unwittingly put the the infantry at a serious disadvantage - low skill, high threat environment, they struggle to deal with the very close quarters situation and get obliterated by the armour as the more capable tank crew steamroller everything!

Moving the infantry on the left side of the road about 50m left to the side of the hill created a very different outcome, now the low skill RPG gunners have time to react and are at a safer distance for doing so, tank was usually disabled or destroyed.

This is pretty consistent with how I would expect the Zeus AI to perform.

I've tweaked the AI skills to accommodate this type of situation better, the results can be seen here:

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I would have released the updated version, but BIS have released further betas which I need to test for compatibility, so expect it in the next few days. For anyone disappointed with CQB, please give Zeus AI Combat Skills a go - you might be pleasantly surprised.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Protegimus

[froggyluv 2136]

Hi,

I didn't change any of the default settings for the AI AT soldiers -those are the standard set values when you place an Opfor AT Group. Good to know that your mod better accounts for individual skill settings as I believe that's how it should be in vanilla by default.

Look forward to your update :)

[Protegimus 0]

Hi,

I didn't change any of the default settings for the AI AT soldiers -those are the standard set values when you place an Opfor AT Group. Good to know that your mod better accounts for individual skill settings as I believe that's how it should be in vanilla by default.

Look forward to your update :)

Thanks for that, you lear something new everyday!

I wonder if BIS did this deliberately as a gameplay feature, as during testing I noticed low skill AI are more likely to engage enemy infantry with their RPG's.

Does it work the same way with sides switched, so US AT teams are also low skill by default?

[mr_centipede 31]

low skill AI are generally more trigger happy with their AT. no matter if the threat is infantry or armour.

It is defined in the GENERAL part of the cfgAISkill. At first I thought it's kinda cool, with AI with low general skill will be more happy to spend AT at infantry than the better trained one. I never tested against armour so I assume when higher skill AI wont waste their AT on infantry and better spend them on armoured targets.

Seeing this, prove my assumption wrong. Maybe a bug?

[jw custom 56]

I've never really seen any impact on the units spotting skill, accuracy skill or any other skill by minimize or maximize the units skill slider!

Only impact is when changing the skill settings in your profile..

skillEnemy=0.7;

precisionEnemy=0.7;

..and that affect all units. The skill slider and the setSkill command should override that profile settings for the units you desire so you can have really skilled soldiers along with poorly skilled soldiers to be able to better design missions.

[maturin 12]

I've never really seen any impact on the units spotting skill, accuracy skill or any other skill by minimize or maximize the units skill slider!

Only impact is when changing the skill settings in your profile..

No impact on spotting skill? Oh definitely.

Place a rifleman on a runway with his back to you. 0.1 skill enemies won't even hear bullet snaps when you fire near them.