Auto-targeting in planes and vehicles

[SFJackBauer 10]

Does somebody else think that it should have be removed/reworked from vanilla game, to allow vehicles to be actually concealed against aircraft?

I'm referring to the "TAB-key-automatically-spots-tracks-and-target-any-ground-vehicle" stuff.

How about implementing real life targeting depending on electromagnetical conditions of the environment and forcing humans to actually look out for their targets?

[Thirdup 0]

Well, if you want to balance things that way then you'd need to remove all lockable weapons (to include those on vehicles and carried by players). Why should a tank be invisible to an A-10 when a player holding a Jav can lock onto the same tank? IRL, CAP aircraft receive a good deal of targeting information/assistance.

Still, I love to see it removed and replaced with a more realistic system. The "tab and fire" method is too simplistic for my tastes. If ArmA ever wants to truely be that total MilSim experience, then they are going to have to dedicate more resources towards aircombat and it's weapon systems.

I'm by no means saying that aircraft should be made any less effective, but I'd *much* rather have a working FLIR or Shkval system to ID an armor target and lock it up (ps: the ability to display FLIR & Shkval should be able to be displayed on a second monitor while we're at it) ;)

And it's about time that BI hire a dev that can make a working countermeasures system for the vanilla game. If a pilot has to take the time to scan/ID/and lock up a target, he also needs the ability to be defensive during this time.

[SFJackBauer 10]

Well, if you want to balance things that way then you'd need to remove all lockable weapons (to include those on vehicles and carried by players).

Sure, I 100% agree. It would also improve the fog of war, meaning you dont know automatically if that chopper/tank you are aiming at is friendly or not, or what kind of model is it.

You would need to rely on your recognition skills, situational awareness about where friendly troops are... all those things we don't want on a realistic simulation, right? :D

[paajtor 10]

It would also improve the fog of war, meaning you dont know automatically if that chopper/tank you are aiming at is friendly or not, or what kind of model is it.

I'm not an expert on this matter, but isn't it the case in a modern army, that friendly vehicles have a transponder onboard, that shows they're friendly?

[rabiddawg 0]

hmm real life radar will pick up contacts.

IFF transponder will identify friendlies

[Thirdup 0]

Sure, I 100% agree. It would also improve the fog of war, meaning you dont know automatically if that chopper/tank you are aiming at is friendly or not, or what kind of model is it.

You would need to rely on your recognition skills, situational awareness about where friendly troops are... all those things we don't want on a realistic simulation, right? :D

Oh you bet that *I* want that level of realism (at least in the air combat aspect of ArmA2).

Watch this real A-10 close support footage (this is why we need both a *working* HUD *and* FLIR)

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I think DCS: Black Shark is a pretty good example of "doing it right" in a sim (I can't friggin wait for their upcoming A-10 release).

(starting around 1:40 there are a number of examples of the Shkval in use)

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and a short example of using the Shkval in an aircraft

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[lee_h._oswald 0]

I would like to see a mod that changes the tab-fire, tab-fire, tab-fire, in something like this:

You can still "see" vehicles on the radar but they are "white dots" and you have no information about what vehicle and side it is.

You are able to "lock" the targets but you can't fire until:

- you are closer than X meters (depends on weapon type).

- you have the target locked on for a longer time.

When the target is identified correctly, you are able to fire the weapon.

I don't expect ArmA to be a simulation like Black Shark, but a bit more realism for the targeting wouldn't hurt.

MfG Lee :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

IRL there are airborne radar systems, reconnaissance flights and satellites...

Do a search about modern/latest sensor systems - many things have changed. WW2 and Vietnam era are over! :p

I dont think that BIS will implement all the features and switches that DCS, Falcon or LockOn have. Some very typical things they've already done eg air vents in russian helicopters.

Lets see if they can add some more here and there eg FLIR, working periscopes on vehicles (on commander, gunner, driver seat), new damage/penetration system...

[whisper 0]

Simply not possible.

A better system than a know-it-all radar with auto-lock, sure.

Level of realism of BS? LOL

[SFJackBauer 10]

hmm real life radar will pick up contacts.

Since when an AH-1Z, or a Stinger tube, has an air-to-air radar?

IFF transponder will identify friendlies

Yes, but IFF is not a magic wand. It requires equipment to interrogate and receive encrypted messages, which not all aircraft / vehicles / land units have. Also it allows you to identify (although with a great margin of uncertainty) who is friendly, not who is enemy. If someone didn't replied an interrogation it can be they're tuned into a different frequency or protocol, or their equipment is malfunctioning... lets not get down that road.

Anyway, I'm holding a Stinger and I can sweep the sky and it magically informs me where are all enemy helos in a 2km radius... not the kind of thing I would expect even in a semi-realistic simulation.

Edited November 23, 2009 by SFJackBauer

[De_little_Bubi 1]

working huds! there are still a lot of misplaces huds in the airplanes :/ in one of the usmc jets you look at the console while zooming in...

i liked the targeting system in the helicopters in the ACE1 mod. took me a litte time to figure out that there is a laser i have to use but after that it was realy cool.

[Thirdup 0]

Simply not possible.

A better system than a know-it-all radar with auto-lock, sure.

Level of realism of BS? LOL

I wouldn't dream of asking for anything close to the level of realism of a DCS title. Vanilla ArmA2 isn't a sim....never will be (I don't care what it says on the box or posted by veteran OPF players).

But BI could at least put a little more effort into making things a bit more "sim-like" (ie: a working FLIR, countermeasures, forgodssake fix the analog throttles, etc).

[SFJackBauer 10]

IRL there are airborne radar systems, reconnaissance flights and satellites...

Do a search about modern/latest sensor systems - many things have changed. WW2 and Vietnam era are over! :p

I know we aren't in the stone age anymore :D, however all those systems are not the magical/mythical thing people expect. As with all system they have parameters, limitations, countermeasures etc. However you can't learn about that intricacies doing a search over the internet.

I dont think that BIS will implement all the features and switches that DCS, Falcon or LockOn have.

Neither do I. I'm perfectly aware that the ARMA2 focus is on infantry, and outside of it lots of things are abstracted. Too much minutiae (a.k.a. the switchology) will probably not fit with the game. But the way the targeting system is abstracted is way too simplistic.

[maturin 12]

Since when an AH-1Z, or a Stinger tube, has an air-to-air radar?

Expert mode removes lock-on crosshairs for launchers. You have to get a good shot and hope.

But this isn't really fair when planes are invisible at >3200m

[Thirdup 0]

.....I'm perfectly aware that the ARMA2 focus is on infantry, and outside of it lots of things are abstracted. Too much minutiae (a.k.a. the switchology) will probably not fit with the game. But the way the targeting system is abstracted is way too simplistic.

^this

[SFJackBauer 10]

Expert mode removes lock-on crosshairs for launchers. You have to get a good shot and hope.

Until you hold your spacebar and get your immersion ruined.

[eble 3]

I often wonder if people actually read the mods section of this game.

Mandole missiles pack at the moment includes a much better Air to Air targetting system, none of the 'tab shit' to target.

Flares/Counter measures are also available as a mod from RKSL.

The community has also made a FLIR (Like) mod.

So with about 10 mins searching you would see everything (almost) you asked for is available right now.

Expecting BIS to make these as standard is a bit much, this isn't a full on Flight sim.

Operation arrowhead will address these in finer detail I guess.

[maturin 12]

Until you hold your spacebar and get your immersion ruined.

ALSO removed by expert mode or mission parameters...

[SFJackBauer 10]

I often wonder if people actually read the mods section of this game.

Look at the first post:

Does somebody else think that it should have be removed/reworked from vanilla game?

I know mods, I respect and admire their job but:

- not all people wants to bother messing up with mod files

- not everyone has time to install and keep track of them (time is already so scarce for actually playing the game...)

- not everyone/every server plays with the same set of mods

- not all mods are compatible between them

Also, if it has been modded and the mod behavior is regarded as best than vanilla, then it is another sign that vanilla needs to be improved (although maybe only in the next installment, as you properly said).

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------

ALSO removed by expert mode or mission parameters...

Didn't knew. Thanks for the tip, will look into.

[maturin 12]

I know mods, I respect and admire their job but:

- not all people wants to bother messing up with mod files

- not everyone has time to install and keep track of them (time is already so scarce for actually playing the game...)

- not everyone/every server plays with the same set of mods

- not all mods are compatible between them

Also, if it has been modded and the mod behavior is regarded as best than vanilla, then it is another sign that vanilla needs to be improved (although maybe only in the next installment, as you properly said).

That's a pretty bad attitude for this kind of game. It's incongruous with owning a PC capable of running this game.

Vanilla is more likely to be improved if modders do it. Some of the modders will even get hired. And most of what we want will never appear, so there's no point pouting about bland vanilla.

[SFJackBauer 10]

That's a pretty bad attitude for this kind of game. It's incongruous with owning a PC capable of running this game.

Vanilla is more likely to be improved if modders do it. Some of the modders will even get hired. And most of what we want will never appear, so there's no point pouting about bland vanilla.

If modders want to do it then, let them do it. I'm saying anyone has to NOT use them? However I can't find anything more "incongruous" than you telling me what I am supposed to do with my PC, or whether or not I should voice my opinions. Didn't knew the forums had unofficial censorship.

Anyways you are departing from the topic. It seems you agree with the fact that the system needs to be improved, unless I'm mistaken, so that's the purpose of the thread. If sufficient people voice their opinion, I'm sure BIS will use the feedback for the next version, or even the current one. Its up for them to decide it.

Edited November 23, 2009 by SFJackBauer

[maturin 12]

If modders want to do it then, let them do it. I'm saying anyone has to NOT use them? However I can't find anything more "incongruous" than you telling me what I am supposed to do with my PC, or whether or not I should voice my opinions. Didn't knew the forums had unofficial censorship.

Just pointing out that the game as a whole and making it work on a complicated, expensive machine usually involves the same sort of hassle that mods do.

Modding is an important indication of what people want. More influential and productive than informal feedback. Companies as close to their communities as BI often borrow directly.

[SFJackBauer 10]

Just pointing out that the game as a whole and making it work on a complicated, expensive machine usually involves the same sort of hassle that mods do.

Not true. Game bought by steam installs and updates by itself. Computer components nowadays are plug-and-use.

But having a crash and have to sort out what inside a combination of mods caused it... eh, been there done that. To each his own I guess.

Also the complexity of using mods (even being small as you are saying) is just one of the facets as I stated previously.

Modding is an important indication of what people want. More influential and productive than informal feedback. Companies as close to their communities as BI often borrow directly.

I don't disagree completely, but... then we oughta close the Suggestions forum, eh?

[Defunkt 431]

I'm perfectly aware that the ARMA2 focus is on infantry, and outside of it lots of things are abstracted. Too much minutiae (a.k.a. the switchology) will probably not fit with the game. But the way the targeting system is abstracted is way too simplistic.

Would you prefer they just left airpower out completely thereby giving modders nothing at all to build on? Because that's what every other studio does, just leaves out the bits they don't want or can't afford to do. This title already includes far more of everything than most and there is no market for the game that would cost 2-3 times more and permit them to apply the same fidelity to all aspects.

Would I like a better air combat simulation in the vanilla game? Of course, who wouldn't? Do I think it's reasonable to expect BIS to provide it for what I paid for the title? Not at all.

[.kju 3245]

Locking should be disabled for all, but guided anti air rockets.

In addition ground launchers (AA, Jav) need to have way less auto detection or none

at all like in OFP. At a delay for all of them..