APC's have super vision

[77scout 10]

Is it just me, or do APC's and Tanks seem to have extrordinary vision and awareness...it's beyond what I would expect.

In real life I thought crews bottled up in an armored vehicle had very poor ability to see (especially infantry under cover), but in the game I am getting shot dead by these units as if they are using x-ray vision and laser guided snipers bullets.

I can be crawling on my belly in deep bush trying to get a shot at them with my SMAW, have yet to fire or even see them yet, and they blast me. Or I can be half a mile away through the trees and they blast me. I never even see the APC until the 'red screen scene' shows who killed me.

Seems wrong to me, but I am not a military person. I would be interested in other's opinions. Is the APC-super-vision screwey and needs fixing, or is it correct and I should just 'suck it up'.

[manberries 0]

Hmm, I have to say I never experienced anything that made me think they were super spotters. I tend to run around in the brush trying to get a smaw shot and be fine. In general, the AI becomes far more focused and able to spot when shots are being fired from that area, or have been recently. You can be pretty blatant even directly in front of a tank at a distance, but once a shot has been fired good luck hiding. I also think that is pretty realistic. If it was PVP, once a player knew it was that area which was full of enemies their prying eyes would spot you out pretty quickly and easily also. The other thing to note is that while the AI cannot see through large bushes, it can see through the small random grass. Also, the exact parts of a bush and tree that the AI cannot see through doesn't quite match what humans could see through. I remember in older patches I could be in the thickest of woods and they would be putting accurate rounds down, but since 1.03 I have not had that experience.

[Steakslim 1]

It's more of a matter of if they are not already aware of your presense. If some infantry man spots you, he'll tell the radio op, the radio op will notify the HQ, and the HQ will broadcast that info to all other units, at least thats what I heard, and it sounds reasonable. Plus you need to remember that apc's and tanks have at least 2 sets of eyes watching. You can sneak up on one if you are really careful, but once they know about you, they are rabid as hell.

[vilas 477]

@ 77Scout:

OFP/Arma1/Arma2 are not perfect

this what you say was horror in Arma 1 and definitely it was reason that i was doing addons and not playing AA1

AI super god-knowledge is caused by engine "eyes" , of course AI knows too much, specially when it comes to infantry

but bug you notice can be advocated as "thermal vision in modern vehicles" :)

in modern war soldier will not hide behind bush before most of modern tanks

thermal scopes will show you

but of course it game AI has some type of radar and thats why it see you

other problem is that sometimes AI fire to me even when i am hidden behind corner of building (it hits building, not me)

sometimes AI fires to empty, destroyed vehicle

it may be caused by errors in "viewgeometry" LOD of model for example

so maybe bush which was cover in your thoughts was not cover for AI cause this bush model had problem with viewgeo LOD ?

i criticize BIS for many little mistakes (which can be easy fixed), but here it is very problematic to make AI react like real human, real vehicle...

human makes mistakes, AI no

human can be tired, AI no

human can be in shock/stress and not notice something, AI no

even after shot from RPG to vehicle, crew jumps off and knows where are you, normal real human would be in shock

and AI is aiming directly at you

but it is very very hard to code game with good AI, other games have scripted behavior in missions , here not

Arma is only one in it's kind , so we must live with those mistakes, we have no choice if we want such type of software

[frederf 0]

Well, "deep bush" being the grass layer... yeah that is not in the AI's mind at all.

If an AI discovers you in ArmA it knows A LOT and VERY FAST. How fast does a squad member B know about a target if squad member A sees it? 0.0001 sec.

If you run behind a hill, AI will "hear" you and track you out of sight for 30+ sec.

If you damage an AI soldier/vehicle... it knows all about you, 0.001 sec.

[Potatomasher 0]

Yes this sounds very familiar. If i remember this has been always the same since OFP.

Sometimes the APC or tank sees and shoots you instantly after you pop your head out of cover and sometimes it doesn't react at all and you have plenty of time to load RPG and blow the enemy back to hell.

Like Vilas said we just have to live with it. Personally it doesn't bother me much anymore. It only takes another loading of game. ;)

[vilas 477]

Well, "deep bush" being the grass layer... yeah that is not in the AI's mind at all.

If an AI discovers you in ArmA it knows A LOT and VERY FAST. How fast does a squad member B know about a target if squad member A sees it? 0.0001 sec.

If you run behind a hill, AI will "hear" you and track you out of sight for 30+ sec.

If you damage an AI soldier/vehicle... it knows all about you, 0.001 sec.

i agree with you, but creating engine with good AI is very hard

maybe BIS should do some "delays" between AI / AI HQ reports about positions of enemy ?

and concerning "kill and spoted" issue, you know, maybe it is because of "internal score" system ?

every vehicle (human, oficer, tank, truck, sabot...) has it's own "cost" value

so maybe AI count's your "points" and , when you kill something important than you became "public enemy, target number one" ?

i am only guessing

but maybe this is due to this ?

when you will dig into configs you will find those values

and concerning AI see you issue, when i fire to tank from RPG i always hide behind tree, rock, building, i fire and run when rocket is in the air, it gives me better hide

when you fire in open field it is always problematic , try to use guerillas tactics

[Second 0]

Is it just me, or do APC's and Tanks seem to have extrordinary vision and awareness...it's beyond what I would expect.

In real life I thought crews bottled up in an armored vehicle had very poor ability to see (especially infantry under cover), but in the game I am getting shot dead by these units as if they are using x-ray vision and laser guided snipers bullets.

I can be crawling on my belly in deep bush trying to get a shot at them with my SMAW, have yet to fire or even see them yet, and they blast me. Or I can be half a mile away through the trees and they blast me. I never even see the APC until the 'red screen scene' shows who killed me.

Seems wrong to me, but I am not a military person. I would be interested in other's opinions. Is the APC-super-vision screwey and needs fixing, or is it correct and I should just 'suck it up'.

Freferd has it right. APCs are very lethal if they are part of larger unit, which have dismounted. What dismout see it informs to BMP in 0.0000001 seconds (don't count zeros as they don't matter ;) )

Their ability to spot is heavily dependant of dismounts seeking targets for them... Unless they get shot at.

If IFV is alone, it's more blind. I'm not sure how much in ArmA2, but i've ran quite a deal in flank of M1A1 and it doesn't seem to register me at all. One shot from RPG-7 at it and i'm toast.

This are main problems in BIS's engine. In reality you don't have borg-effect (telepathy sort of) or instant "i know from where you fired at me".

In reality, well i haven't been inside that kind vehicles much, just tracked truck hauling us on arctic heights, so i can't tell much anything first-hand. But from users i've understood big thing are thermals. I've heard stories form gunners how they are spotting how AT-guy in their sector (this in exercises, so no killing involved) readies AT-launcher into work and gunner even can spot mishandlings. Thermals are "unfair", but ArmA2 doesn't have them so don't worry about the,. Rule of thumb in reality is that if barrel is pointing at you you better seek good cover and remain hidden, ofcourse there's commander who has his own periscope and it's azimut can be harder to see. Yet, even modern vehicles have just few guys doing spotting with resticted FOV, and it's not healthy to leave vicinity of dismounts which are covering blind sectors which still consists large part of vehicle's vicinity. Older BMP-s don't have such luxury as thermals so it can be considered to be very much more blind.

All in all this piles down in luck, commander's and gunner's and driver's sectors are considered by ArmA if i understand it right. Main problem is that how well they will spot you, gunner has bigger zoom but narrow FOV, commander sees in larger FOV but naturally FOV is still limited (if they don't stick their heads up). driver see to front, but not very well i think. As general rule of thumb. I don't know are they balanced. Main problems lies elsewhere (as mentioned earlier).

Edited October 19, 2009 by Second

[jw custom 56]

I can be crawling on my belly in deep bush trying to get a shot at them with my SMAW, have yet to fire or even see them yet, and they blast me. Or I can be half a mile away through the trees and they blast me. I never even see the APC until the 'red screen scene' shows who killed me.

That sounds like something from v1.0. I hated how super aware the AI was.

Now on patch 1.04 it's very possible to sneak up to the enemy, that be foot soldiers or vehicles.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yes this sounds very familiar. If i remember this has been always the same since OFP.

Sometimes the APC or tank sees and shoots you instantly after you pop your head out of cover and sometimes it doesn't react at all and you have plenty of time to load RPG and blow the enemy back to hell.

I don't find it that problematic. If it is very focused on you and doesn't have to deal with much else, I find it understandable that it is able to spot you so good. However, if you take your time, reload and relocate, you'll have a better chance against it. Wait for it until you hear its engine noise change, maybe track noises. Then you know it have a high chance of engaging something else.

Use other people. Let them inform you where it and its turret is pointing. If it's not pointing at you, you should be safe for a quick shot. There have been many times I've been annoyed as hell with AIs somewhat magical abilities, including this, but you tend to learn to adopt once you figure out a tactics against it.

[Alex72 1]

Dont really have that problem either. Standing in front of armored vehicles isnt smart ofcourse. Not even hiding in a bush in their vicinity as they do have thermal optics and zoom optics (FLIR not modeled but accounted for im sure).

They are indeed to sensitive, but as BIS stated long time ago: The AI have to be a bit sensitive or the player would find it too easy. But i agree some things need a change. Shooting a SMAW into the side of a tank will make him know exactlly where you are instantly - that should change a bit.

I tested however to place mines for a tank and wanted to see if it knew where i was when it drove over the mines - it didnt. Crew got out and was completely clueless (1.04). In ArmA1 before many patches a mine would tell the enemy exactlly where you were.

More changes are needed and i put my hopes in ACE2 mod for this atm. Keep an eye out for it. ;)

Alex

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Lol, I didn't realize that about the mines. Never saw too many actually use them, although they are very very useful. How is it with remote satchelling now?

I agree when being shot at, I would like them to do something evasive instead of returning fire. If we were smart (rarely during public games), you would go for a coordinated attack. If tank was then fired upon, it should know it was being hunted and do an evasive manouver - *then* start its hunt on the position. However, they would have to withstand more damage than now as well.

[77scout 10]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. I had not thought of thermal imaging basically 'stripping away' light-cover like bushes. Boy, that makes these APC's very hard to attack.

I agree that the AI knowledge of my position seems way too fast and too good. Instead of the AI knowing "rifle shots are coming from that woods 300m away" and spraying supressing fire in my general direction, they actually know "shots are coming from behind that exact tree 300m away" and their first shot seems to hit you between the eyes.

I will keep an eye out for the ACE2 mod...thanks!

[deathUK 10]

I have to agree 77Scout, the AI and tanks and APC seem frighteningly good. I actually think they are a bit too good. Sometimes I am lying in a bush miles away up a hill and if I accidently fart I seem to get instantly peppered. However sometimes when I am in a tank and I start taking fire it sometimes takes an age of twirling around looking at trees to figure out where the fire is coming from. I would have thought that the latter reaction is much more realistic if you are in an enclosed lump of metal and should be reflected in this game.

[manberries 0]

Well, the difficulty in Arma for players to find their attackers is just due to the game. I rarely even hear the hit when an rpg hits me. In real life the sound would be more easily tracked. The commander would instantly know the general direction of the attack, be able to turn very quickly, and probably spot some sort of smoke or trail from the shot location. Personally, I would rather the AI act more like a real person in a real situation would, than have them act as a person hindered by the nature of playing a game.

[mr.g-c 6]

Well, "deep bush" being the grass layer... yeah that is not in the AI's mind at all.

If an AI discovers you in ArmA it knows A LOT and VERY FAST. How fast does a squad member B know about a target if squad member A sees it? 0.0001 sec.

If you run behind a hill, AI will "hear" you and track you out of sight for 30+ sec.

If you damage an AI soldier/vehicle... it knows all about you, 0.001 sec.

Can this been proved with a demo-mission so we can add it to the bug-tracker?

I really think those values must be adjusted by BIS to realistic and fair levels - its about time to change those annoying AI flaws.

[BKnight3 0]

I'm sorry but I have to point out some things.

FLIR can see through trees???

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Second, some uniforms have been made to defeat thermal sights, although very rarely used. In fact, ghillie suits have been known to have some heat disipating properties. Here's an example of the camoflauge:

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Smoke trails??? What smoke trails??? Smoke trails don't last very long, like a second or two!!!

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-BNAoOaYyEg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Well, I hope I've helped in this discussion somehow.

[nkenny 1057]

The human body is essentially one really big heat creating and dissipating engine. While modern military uniforms do have some anti-thermal uniforms effects, they are far from perfect (or all covering). A friend of mine who served in the Norwegian armed forces described how you could practically see handprints where people had been leaning (touching) walls.

Having said that the BIS engine is created to emulate pre-1980s warfare on a 2001 hardware and does a poor job of displaying modern warfare.

- K

[frederf 0]

Mr. GC, these aspects of ArmA wouldn't really fit into a bug tracker report. It's more a question of the scope and complexity of the AI simulation that is lacking instead of actual buggy behavior.

As for "vehicles have super vision to replicate IR imaging" ... no, just no. The freaking 12.7mm MG-equipped trucks in ArmA behave just as well as a BMP2 or whatnot. It's just vision according to the game and there's nothing intentional about the super observation.

[Maddmatt 1]

Well, "deep bush" being the grass layer... yeah that is not in the AI's mind at all.

Wrong. AI takes into account the clutter at the point you're standing at. If you're pront in grass, they can't see you unless you do something to reveal yourself. Was proved in tests that someone did and he posted up Youtube videos. Also stated by a dev.

If an AI discovers you in ArmA it knows A LOT and VERY FAST. How fast does a squad member B know about a target if squad member A sees it? 0.0001 sec.

From my observations it seems to take a couple seconds for the rest of the squad to register the exact position. Could be wrong though.

If you run behind a hill, AI will "hear" you and track you out of sight for 30+ sec.

Spotting vehicles through hills was fixed in a patch, was due to hearing being too good.

They will not track you out of sight unless you're in a loud vehicle or on foot and within a few metres (footsteps). Otherwise they estimate your last position based on when they last saw you.

AI does have it's flaws. The way it deals with grass is too simplistic and does not take into around grass between you and them that blocks LOS, usually noticeable if you're lying on an area that has no grass but there is grass blocking your view of the AI.

Personally I just with BIS kept most of the grass on Chernarus short with small patches of tall grass.

[frederf 0]

Hearing too good? APCs shouldn't have any hearing, zip, zilch, zero.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

They should have if turned out with engine not running. Otherwise, I fully agree.

Yes, theire abilities ARE too good in some circumstances. However, I think it makes up to them usually making way too stupid moves.