AI gone Deaf and Not Too Bright in 1.03

[Akilez 10]

I just tested this patch in anticipation of upgrading servers and while the sound is very good now with the extended low frequencies the AI have gone completely deaf and more than a little dumb.

My final test was engaging a base on Utes (user coop map) and I could fire a DMR at tangos from 300 meters all day long while a patrol less than 10 meters from the ones I was engaging acted like nothing was going on.

This is in stark contrast to their behavior before this patch where they would immediately react, seek cover, return fire, flank etc etc making it an excellent fight. But now it's just too easy and very disappointing.

I'm concerned that all of this initial complaining by some new to this game has caused BIS to overcompensate and take the challenge completely out for the slightly more experienced players.

I had the game set to 'Expert' mode and it was way too easy for me to just stand off a bit with a DMR and knock down targets at will with no concern at all. They just stood there and let me shoot them.

Has anyone else noticed a radical change in AI behavior?

This is not good.

BIS if you'e listening this is not good for anyone so please hotfix this back to the way it was originally. If you stop the dead tangos from reporting in that's fine but making the AI this easy is just not the right approach.

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Edited August 6, 2009 by Akilez
If it wasn't for typos my life would be damn near perfect1

[bangtail 0]

I just tested this patch in anticipation of upgrading servers and while the sound is very good now with the extended low frequencies the AI have gone completely deaf and more than a little dumb.

My final test was engaging a base on Utes (user coop map) and I could fire a DMR at tangos from 300 meters all day long while a patrol less than 10 meters from the ones I was engaging acted like nothing was going on.

This is in stark contrast to their behavior before this patch where they would immediately react, seek cover, return fire, flank etc etc making it an excellent fight. But now it's just too easy and very disappointing.

I'm concerned that all of this initial complaining by some new to this game has caused BIS to overcompensate and take the challenge completely out for the slightly more experienced players.

I had the game set to 'Expert' mode and it was way too easy for me to just stand off a bit with a DMR and knock down targets at will with no concern at all.

They just stood there and let me shoot them.

Has anyone else noticed a radical change in AI behavior?

This is not good.

BIS if you'e listening this is not good for anyone so please hotfix this back to the way it was originally. If you stop the dead tangos from reporting in that's fine but making the AI this easy is just not the right approach.

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Yes, it's possible the "instant grat" whiners have had some effect here. I sincerely hope this is not beginning of a trend towards vBF2 type gameplay to appease the dullards.

There are already plenty of games for them to play without ruining this one.

Eth

Edited August 6, 2009 by BangTail

[nyran125 10]

its probably more realistic for enemies to be able to hear your gun fire from miles away. If you hear a loud bang or gun shot in the street especially in a massively rural area like the area BIS has designed you would hear it from miles away.

[Bulldogs 10]

I set up a few scenarios and watched from a civilian point of view. One thing that I noticed is that in many encounters when the AI was in heavy grass a lot of the opposing AI would keep shooting the dead bodies of the other AI while at a long distance. I figured it was a bump showing that the AI didn't confirm that they had made a kill due to the heavy grass and kept shooting til they were sure.

[bangtail 0]

I set up a few scenarios and watched from a civilian point of view. One thing that I noticed is that in many encounters when the AI was in heavy grass a lot of the opposing AI would keep shooting the dead bodies of the other AI while at a long distance. I figured it was a bump showing that the AI didn't confirm that they had made a kill due to the heavy grass and kept shooting til they were sure.

That's pretty cool tbh.

Eth

[M4Mkey 10]

I'm concerned that all of this initial complaining by some new to this game has caused BIS to overcompensate and take the challenge completely out for the slightly more experienced players.

Well excuse me, i'm not a "new to this game". But after making explode some satchel at 300m from their position and being shot by the whole base... There was some problem.

Even killing a patrol far away from the base would have make the whole base attack you. Damn, sabotage missions were not even imagineable in precedent version of the game. A soldier hearing you at 50m behing a lots of grass while some T90's engine is running... Where is the realism?

I didn't try many more things for the moments but at this point, i'm quite satisfied. They may have render them death and mute and so they still have some work. I may admit that with this patch. I made my sabotage mission ( something impossible before ). But after engaging satchels far away. The enemy still stayed in Safe condition. After all, it's still logic... they didn't detected any BLUFOR. So this is an other problem.

[Akilez 10]

300 meters is a very short distance when it comes to gun shots from unsupressed weapons and explosives.

Imagine you were the one at the base with your comrades and gunfire erupted from 300-400 meters...what would be your reaction from that base? And the 'live' AI can radio the info back to base so one way or the other the base is alerted and should immediately react.

I'm going to do some more testing and if this is the way it will be then I can only hope for the rapid release of mods like TrueRangeAI to get the AI to step up and fight like more traditional human foes.

I think it's a huge mistake to make the AI less astute and agressive but hey that's just me and of course a whole lot of my friends and associates.

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Edited August 28, 2009 by Akilez
If it wasn't for typos my life would be damn near perfect

[froggyluv 2136]

I agree with you Akilez. Just like Arma, it looks like its going to take a few swings of the pendulam to get the Ai to act 'just right'. Of course, we all have different opinions of what 'just right' is ... but I would garner to say that if your on the fence between too tough and too easy, go with the first.

[M4Mkey 10]

well I said 300 metres on a hunch. And when I mean sabotage mission, i mean supressed weapons. And before this patch, with the dead body report. Even if the enemy didn't have the time to shot back at you. The whole base will charge on you. No... that's no reallistic. I admit that with this patch it's not realistic either. But when you're suppressed, you report the ennemy first and then shoot back ?... I'm not in army but I don't think it's the case.

To Radio an enemy position is a thing, to have all units in the perimeter knowing your exact location a millisecond after ONE man detects you is another history..

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

For me the most annoying aspect of the pre1.03 AI hearing ability was the pinpoint accuracy. We can easily see the exact position of an object with our eyes, but hearing is far less accurate. We can just get a something like a general idea of where a sound came from. Enough to turn into this direction, but not enough for shooting at night in a forest without NVG. At least this is my personal experience. (I would not like comments popping up telling me I should contact a doctor to have my ears inspected.) Is there a way to test how accurately the AI can locate an enemy they cannot see?

[Akilez 10]

Hearing is much more accurate than some give it credit for. Go into a pitch black room with someone and see how long it takes to pinpoint their location from sound alone.

Also, if hearing was of so little value in determing location why do most of us wear 5.1 or 7.1 headsets??

The AI, in my testing, has gone from a natural response to total oblivion and it is this aspect of the patch with which I take issue.

BIS I'm begging you to restore the astute hearing and aggresive behavior which was so refreshingly welcome in the initial release.

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[M4Mkey 10]

Do you go in a pitch black room with a tank on your side ? I don't think so :) You should try and then tell me if you still locate someone crawling just behind you. If you do then i'll admit the AI was not too much talented :o

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

I just tested this patch in anticipation of upgrading servers and while the sound is very good now with the extended low frequencies the AI have gone completely deaf and more than a little dumb.

My final test was engaging a base on Utes (user coop map) and I could fire a DMR at tangos from 300 meters all day long while a patrol less than 10 meters from the ones I was engaging acted like nothing was going on.

This is in stark contrast to their behavior before this patch where they would immediately react, seek cover, return fire, flank etc etc making it an excellent fight. But now it's just too easy and very disappointing.

I'm concerned that all of this initial complaining by some new to this game has caused BIS to overcompensate and take the challenge completely out for the slightly more experienced players.

I had the game set to 'Expert' mode and it was way too easy for me to just stand off a bit with a DMR and knock down targets at will with no concern at all. They just stood there and let me shoot them.

Has anyone else noticed a radical change in AI behavior?

This is not good.

BIS if you'e listening this is not good for anyone so please hotfix this back to the way it was originally. If you stop the dead tangos from reporting in that's fine but making the AI this easy is just not the right approach.

.

.

.

Maybe you have a problem with your installation or with your mission ?

I have a very simple user-made mission on Utes with several AI squads : one patrol, another one sentry a few hundreds meter away.

When the firefight starts, the AI squad with the sentry waypoint investigates what is going on : sometimes they come directly towards my squad, other times they flank us (or something like that :p).

They are definitely not deaf, or simple victims.

(Super AI is enabled, btw)

BIS I'm begging you to restore the astute hearing and aggresive behavior which was so refreshingly welcome in the initial release.

I disagree, their astute hearing was an annoying issue imo. They could hear the player walking slowly at distances far too important and unrealistic. It also gave me disappointing end results for certain AI versus AI scenarios (I have not done those scenarios again yet, but I think I will obtain more realistic end results now).

So far I like this new build (minus the sound bug, now solved).

[volkov956 0]

I tested AI in our Dedicated server they seem to be fine and they still spot you through hills ....

[EDcase 87]

I haven't been able to test 1.03 yet but there was a bug in 1.02 that if you made the first waypoint of an AI squad "safe" mode and then they were attacked, they would not react.

[zeep 3]

..I'm concerned that all of this initial complaining by some new to this game has caused BIS to overcompensate..

I'm sure it'll get tweaked in future patches. But yeah, BIS have compensated a tad too much on the AI's hearing. First thing i noticed while playing the campain.

[fitzee 7]

I'm not sure what to think of the ai.

1st test I ran Trial By Fire. Things seemed ok, ai were shooting eachother and reacting to others being shot, but then while I was giving first aid to a comrade the enemy apc drove by about 15 metres in front of me, turned the corner and drove by maybe 10 metres off my left flank without noticing me. In 1.02 I woulda been toast.

2nd test in the editor I placed a spetznatz squad in the centre of a town, placed one marine player. I went out on a small hill where I could see the leader and two soldiers. Popped 2 quick shots into the soldier for the kill, as the leader crouched and circled around trying to find me the other soldier went prone. After few more seconds the leader sent a soldier running in my general direction, I wounded him with one shot, then they knew where i was and started spraying bullets around me.

The apc not spotting me in the 1st test was bad, but the ai's reactions in the second test were great Imho.

I've been playing in veteran mode, which defaults enemy ai to .80, if the enemy infantry in your game isn't reacting to being shot at maybe you have difficulty set to low? Or maybe I just got lucky, as I haven't done much testing yet.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Fitzee

[MarvinTheMartian 10]

I think the problem has been outlined by a few people now. I myself seem convinced that the AI can see you through foliage/trees/smoke...i have complained about it myself. I know that it does appear to hide you at first to SOME degree (not much at all in my opinion), but as a lot of people have mentioned...it "appears" that the moment you are detected EVERYONE knows EXACTLY where you are. I've read in various other threads on this forum that this is because once you are detected, the AI will put a "marker" on you. This means that even if you run 1000m metres away and aren't being chased, the AI will STILL know where you are. Even if you have ran off miles away from where you were "detected" and lie down in very tall grass etc. Then enemy still knows exactly where you are.

I don't know if this is true, but after playing the game every day since it came out and reading various other posts, i would say that this appears to be the case. It would be nice if you could run off again and hide. If your not being chased, and no one has seen you move to your new position...then the enemy shouldn't know where you are...sure they may know an approximate area where you "could" be! But after testing this...i still "appear" to be found instantly and shot dead.

I would like the AI to be realistic without it being made totally dumb! As i say, i'm not 100% sure if this is the case. But since patch 1.03 the AI do appear to be extremely dense at times. Can we not have the AI working without it being "dumbed" down as a quick fix? As that's what appears to have happened in my opinion. As sometimes now i can shoot a group of soldiers. one by one they fall to the ground dead. With a soldier right next to them who frankly seems "oblivious" that the guy right next to him has just got a bullet through the head...repeat this process until all stupid AI are dead. WTF? It didn't appear to be this bad in 1.02. And judgeing by previous posts i'm not the only one that thinks so.

Bohemia PLEASE PLEASE do not dumb the AI down. Please do not cater to the COD/Quake/Unreal run and gun people. Who instantly moan and say the AI is way to hard. We just want them to react properly and not have super human abilities. We don't in turn want them as thick as a plank of wood.

[n0bby 0]

We just want them to react properly and not have super human abilities.

And there's the rub. Because unfortunately this is exactly what BI have been unable to achieve, throughout the history of the OpF games. It just seems to me that fundamentally they haven't got their AI right.

As you mentioned in your post, the marker that the AI puts on you means that once one bad guy spots you, everyone spots you - and it's nigh-on impossible to get 'un-spotted'. So that's wrong for starters. Also, every AI enemy is blessed with superhuman accuracy, no matter what weapon they're using, no matter how far away you are from them, or whether you're moving or not.

The only way BI can respond to this AI behaviour is to make them "stupider" by inhibiting their awareness - but that has the undesirable effects mentioned here.

If they could make them less able to locate your position accurately so fast, and less deadly accurate once they have, and not telepathically connected to all their buddies so that once one of them spots you, they all do, then perhaps it would be possible to get something closer to a 'realistic' looking in-game response from them.

[LeadCommando65 10]

BIS I'm begging you to restore the astute hearing and aggresive behavior which was so refreshingly welcome in the initial release.

I have to disagree with your request to restore hearing sensitivity to the old values. Don't get me wrong, I was playing OFP since 2001, but it would make sabotage missions and sneaking impossible, again. Now it is possible to sneak in. In 1.02 you got shot from 300m away at night while only crouching slowly. That's not realistic!

But it's true that the 1.03 patch must have affected other values that makes the AI a little bit dumb now.

There is the need of tweaking, but absolutely no point about putting in again an AI which can hear leafs falling down on the other side of the island.

Edited August 9, 2009 by LeadCommando65

[NeMeSiS 11]

and less deadly accurate once they have, and not telepathically connected to all their buddies so that once one of them spots you, they all do, then perhaps it would be possible to get something closer to a 'realistic' looking in-game response from them.

How many bullets do you need to shoot an AI? 2~6? The AI should need about the same amount dont you think?

Also, lowering the AI accuracy is so incredibly easy that this cannot possibly be an issue, it just means you havent configured the game the way you want it.

And the second one isnt true, unless you use guard waypoints or other external scripts they only share the knowledge within their squad. And it would be pretty stupid if they didnt, they are supposed to be a squad and not a bunch of online lone-wolfing retards.

[Alex72 1]

To OP:

Yes we have noticed. Because there is other threads already adressing this...

[galzohar 31]

It is now WAY too easy to sneak on the AI. In fact that is an understatement:

9KetKMxTYQQ

I uploaded it at 1280X720 which should be in HD, hopefully it'll work...

[.kju 3244]

Can you please upload the sample mission to the A2 CIT.

[NeMeSiS 11]

If anyone is interested i can clean and upload my addon which restores the 1.02 values. (Or you can just make it yourself, takes about the same time :p )