T90 weak as hell?

[H.A.L 10]

I'm not sure if this is right, but can .50 rounds penetrate T90 armor? Because i was using a M2 machinegun during a mission & it destroyed a T90 after so many shots.

I was so shocked, i had to quickly test it in the editor, against a M1A1... no effect what so ever.

So is the T90 suppose to be this weak in real life?!? Or is this an arma2 bug?

[Steakslim 1]

Due to a hitpoint system that the game still uses it is possible, however that t90 may have recieved some damage prior to your engagement with it. It's been known for a while that a m240 can kill a tank with enough rounds (a lot). However the chances of that actually happening successfully is slim, and you probably lucked out. That's all unless there's some bug with the .50 cal vs t90 I don't know about.

[Baron von Beer 0]

A simple/crude solution would be to include an additional config parameter for penetration. Nothing fancy even (not that more fleshed out would be a bad thing :) ) just a simple X value for front/side/rear of vehicle, and Y value for any given round. Maybe allow a certain amount of the existing "hit" parameter to overpower it too, for explosives, etc. It would at least keep the small caliber weapons from playing a role.

[Beltfed 0]

A simple/crude solution would be to include an additional config parameter for penetration. Nothing fancy even (not that more fleshed out would be a bad thing :) ) just a simple X value for front/side/rear of vehicle, and Y value for any given round. Maybe allow a certain amount of the existing "hit" parameter to overpower it too, for explosives, etc. It would at least keep the small caliber weapons from playing a role.

I really wish they would do this. It is the biggest flaw in this "simulator" that penetration is not even modeled.

[Black² 10]

I really wish they would do this. It is the biggest flaw in this "simulator" that penetration is not even modeled.

I shot a dude through a metal fence like.. last night

[Nickos 10]

Ya' know mate, they're talking 'ere 'bout ARMOR penetration, not walls\fences\etc

[H.A.L 10]

Yep, it's confirmed after more testing in the editor (empty T72s and T90 targets shooting them on the side, first with M2 then with DshKM).

It takes 150rnds of .50 calibre to blow up a T90 & 100rnds to kill a T72.

How stupid is that?!? With BMPs I can understand, but against a tank is unrealistic. Definitely a bug i think, i'm going to check if anyone has reported this.

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

yep same problem, the t90 is just complete crap, probably equivalent to the t72 in the game as it took a t72 1 shot to destroy a t90, and it can't even compete with the m1a1 or m1a2.. which is just useless

[-TO-Khaine 10]

I killed a T90 with autocannon on the Vodnik in just over 7-9 seconds of sustained fire, which surprised me greatly.

[H.A.L 10]

it's definitely an ammo bug against the T90 & T72s. Just in case it might be a specific weapon bug... i just put an whole army of infantry armed with barrett .50 sniper rifles & they manage to kill the tanks with sustained fire as well.

Surprisingly, it takes more effort to blow up a Shilka by comparison.

[walker 0]

Hi all

A single standard 50 cal round can penetrate 0.875 inches (22.2 mm) of hardened steal armor at 100m.

A single M2 M903 SLAP or M962 SLAP-T round is said to be capable of penetrating 1.34 inches or 34 millimeters of High Hard Armor (HHA) or hardened face steel armor at 500 m what its effect up close is I cannot guess.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/slap.htm

Maximum effective range: 4921.5 feet (1500 meters) against 0.75 inches of HHA

Multiple rounds hitting the same spot could well eat through the armor of a tank, that is the principle of the A10 Wart-hog's 30mm cannon.

A jackhammer could penetrate an M1A2 given time, it is just physics. The fact that you could take the time to cut through a tank does not mean that the crew would let you. A tank has an MG for a reason. Also smoke projectors can also project frag and WP grenades. I cannot in all honesty see you sitting there in game as BLUEFOR playing against a mobile AI OPFOR T90 with ammo and it letting you MG it to death.

The M2 is more than capable of taking out any tanks optics that is why they also have vision slots. And with SLAP rounds an M2 could be capable of getting a mobility kill by taking out tracks and running wheels. Where the turret ring of the tank is exposed as in the T90 a turret traverse kill could also be possible.

Immobilized, reverse slope belly shots, and firing into the engine compartment could IMHO achieve a full kill. But if you have achieved a mobility kill, then a rubber car tire full a gasoline thrown on to the engine compartment could probably achieve the same thing. The Molotov cocktail is still an effective AT even today.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 30, 2009 by walker

[NoRailgunner 0]

Keep in mind its a hitpoint system not a penetration system based on real data. ;)

Except for Rambo(s) who will attack an crewed MBT only with a machinegun/sniper rifle in real life?

[H.A.L 10]

I know what you mean by physics and i totally agree, but expect the game to model the russian tanks fairly. Just tried it in Arma1 and the russian tanks are fine.

In the game, the M1A1 isn't affected at all.

I just don't think the developers would do this on purpose. I'm mean shoot both a shilka and T90... the shilka would take more .50 damage than that tank!

[MontyVCB 0]

I don't know what you people are going on about, when playing CTI I've found the T-90 to be a rather good tank ingame, taking hits from an M1 and able to carry on the fight. Same with the T-72. I've not seen any issues with machine gun rounds blowing up tanks.

Edited July 30, 2009 by MontyVCB

[Guest]

Hi all

A single standard 50 cal round can penetrate 0.875 inches (22.2 mm) of hardened steal armor at 100m.

A single M2 M903 SLAP or M962 SLAP-T round is said to be capable of penetrating 1.34 inches or 34 millimeters of High Hard Armor (HHA) or hardened face steel armor at 500 m what its effect up close is I cannot guess.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/slap.htm

Maximum effective range: 4921.5 feet (1500 meters) against 0.75 inches of HHA

Multiple rounds hitting the same spot could well eat through the armor of a tank, that is the principle of the A10 Wart-hog's 30mm cannon.

A jackhammer could penetrate an M1A2 given time, it is just physics. The fact that you could take the time to cut through a tank does not mean that the crew would let you. A tank has an MG for a reason. Also smoke projectors can also project frag and WP grenades. I cannot in all honesty see you sitting there in game as BLUEFOR playing against a mobile AI OPFOR T90 with ammo and it letting you MG it to death.

The M2 is more than capable of taking out any tanks optics that is why they also have vision slots. And with SLAP rounds an M2 could be capable of getting a mobility kill by taking out tracks and running wheels. Where the turret ring of the tank is exposed as in the T90 a turret traverse kill could also be possible.

Immobilized, reverse slope belly shots, and firing into the engine compartment could IMHO achieve a full kill. But if you have achieved a mobility kill, then a rubber car tire full a gasoline thrown on to the engine compartment could probably achieve the same thing. The Molotov cocktail is still an effective AT even today.

Kind Regards walker

You defend this game way too much lol.

In real life, none of this is possible. Let me explain:

My name is Mr American. I have a nice big automatic machinegun, with 1500 rounds. I am now unloading every single round into that T90 just in front of me.

Oh noez, i ran out of ammo! And the T90 has 1500 scratch marks in it! Oh noez i am going to die now!

T90 fires one HE round and Mr American is dead.

See my point? It doesn't matter if you empty a million small arms fire rounds into a tank, it is simply metal bouncing of metal. Sure, gau 8's can chew through armour, but have you seen how big a gau 8 round is?

Sure, a 50'cal could penetrate armour, all be it with low damage when and if it penetrates.

[Fail 10]

Seen!

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIyh0WlTvWw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIyh0WlTvWw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

[Fintroll 10]

Alright that should not be possible, please fix.

[Beltfed 0]

BIS has made an awesome game/sim with Arma series. I hope you guys will consider adding some penetration tables to make it even better :).

[zolop0 10]

You defend this game way too much lol.

In real life, none of this is possible. Let me explain:

My name is Mr American. I have a nice big automatic machinegun, with 1500 rounds. I am now unloading every single round into that T90 just in front of me.

Oh noez, i ran out of ammo! And the T90 has 1500 scratch marks in it! Oh noez i am going to die now!

T90 fires one HE round and Mr American is dead.

See my point? It doesn't matter if you empty a million small arms fire rounds into a tank, it is simply metal bouncing of metal. Sure, gau 8's can chew through armour, but have you seen how big a gau 8 round is?

Sure, a 50'cal could penetrate armour, all be it with low damage when and if it penetrates.

I think you might be missing his point about penetratation. He was not talking about this game or any in particular, or any simulator. To be honest though, I need to read more of the charts he linked too.

I am missing your point too listed below...

"In real life, none of this is possible. Let me explain:

My name is Mr American. I have a nice big automatic machinegun, with 1500 rounds. I am now unloading every single round into that T90 just in front of me.

Oh noez, i ran out of ammo! And the T90 has 1500 scratch marks in it! Oh noez i am going to die now!

T90 fires one HE round and Mr American is dead. "

How does this relate to the T90 being weak or having a easy penetration for MG? I am confused are you now saying the T90 is too powerful because it can take a lot of MG rounds and it can kill a infantry man with a HEAT round? What do you mean by " it is simply metal bouncing of metal." as any penetration through the armor could cause electronics to fail, ammunition to go off, or a fire to start (depends on ammunition type) in real life. I am Confused...

Also how does Reactive armor plating effects tanks of this modern age? I think they are mainly used to stop RPGs but I could be wrong.

NOTE: Isn't the GAU cannon ammunition Uranium tipped or explosive tipped to especially go through armor plates also? Please re-read the links he gave you too and compare, because it seems you just didn't bother reading any of them.

Edited July 30, 2009 by zolop0

[Angryerman 10]

You defend this game way too much lol.

In real life, none of this is possible. Let me explain:

My name is Mr American. I have a nice big automatic machinegun, with 1500 rounds. I am now unloading every single round into that T90 just in front of me.

Oh noez, i ran out of ammo! And the T90 has 1500 scratch marks in it! Oh noez i am going to die now!

T90 fires one HE round and Mr American is dead.

See my point? It doesn't matter if you empty a million small arms fire rounds into a tank, it is simply metal bouncing of metal. Sure, gau 8's can chew through armour, but have you seen how big a gau 8 round is?

Sure, a 50'cal could penetrate armour, all be it with low damage when and if it penetrates.

You need to pay better attention. What he says is intirely possible with ONE well placed round into a weak area of a tank. I don't see anyone talking about putting hundreds of rounds over a period of time into a tank. He is talking about a CONCEALED sniper up to almost a MILE away, waiting for the right moment to put a SINGLE or just a couple of AP rounds into what is already a vulnerable area.

So your brilliant assumption of the tank just taking out the sniper is completely off the mark. Not to mention you don't demonstate much knowledge of real world weapons and their effects. The .50 sniper rifle is an anti-material weapon.

[zolop0 10]

You defend this game way too much lol.

In real life, none of this is possible. Let me explain:

My name is Mr American. I have a nice big automatic machinegun, with 1500 rounds. I am now unloading every single round into that T90 just in front of me.

Oh noez, i ran out of ammo! And the T90 has 1500 scratch marks in it! Oh noez i am going to die now!

T90 fires one HE round and Mr American is dead.

See my point? It doesn't matter if you empty a million small arms fire rounds into a tank, it is simply metal bouncing of metal. Sure, gau 8's can chew through armour, but have you seen how big a gau 8 round is?

Sure, a 50'cal could penetrate armour, all be it with low damage when and if it penetrates.

You need to pay better attention. What he says is intirely possible with ONE well placed round into a weak area of a tank. I don't see anyone talking about putting hundreds of rounds over a period of time into a tank. He is talking about a CONCEALED sniper up to almost a MILE away, waiting for the right moment to put a SINGLE or just a couple of AP rounds into what is already a vulnerable area.

So your brilliant assumption of the tank just taking out the sniper is completely off the mark. Not to mention you don't demonstate much knowledge of real world weapons and their effects. The .50 sniper rifle is an anti-material weapon.

That is a pretty amazing rifle. Watched a few you-tube videos of controlled firing, no wonder its a anti-material rifle and can exceed MANY miles in distance per shot To your point there are also different bullet types it uses for specific purposes and the bullet is pretty large. I think its also has a option for uranium tipped ammunition too, not sure though.

Edited July 30, 2009 by zolop0

[arr 10]

They should also make the gap between the crew abandoning the tank and tank exploding bigger because in real life tanks usually don't burn up completely when destroyed.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=126915&page=2

[Beagle 684]

The T-72 and T-90 are indeed much to "weak" regarding "hitpoints" in this game...or some weapons are simply overpowered.

Both MBTs feel more like IFVs in ArmA2.

[Guest]

Ok, you all seem way too fast to challenge what i said in my original post.

I tell you what, you find me a story of a Mr Rambo who disabled a tank with a machinegun, and i'll agree with what you say. At the end of the day, the bullet from a standard anti personel weapon, IE ak47, M16, is not going to penetrate a tank. Otherwise what the hell is it built to do?? Get protected from stone chippings??

Obviously a 50.cal sniper is designed to pentrate vehicles, it even has those remarkably beautiful rounds which explode on impact for it. But seriously, the chances of disabling a tank with a 50.cal are very, very slim, possible or not. It wouldn't matter if you were a mile away, would you attempt to shoot a tank with a sniper?

Yes, there are week points. Yes, some things are possible. But no, the bullet from a standard machinegun or rifle is nothing more than a stone chipping to tank. If you think otherwise, well i hope im nowhere near you in a real battle!

Edited July 31, 2009 by Guest

[maturin 12]

You can disable a T-90 with a few AGS-30 grenades or a single Tunguska SAM.