So I have played ARMA 2 for a few weeks now and have 2 points of feedback for BIS

[LockDOwn 0]

In a game selling it self as a "war sim", there are two areas I believe BIS MUST address in order to put this game over the top.

1. Distance blurring for infantry that kneel or lay down.

- I think it is obvious to anyone who has played this game, especially in PvP, that they fact you are surrounded in grass on your screen yet in plain sight to a soldier at distance is VERY frustrating. Now we know you can not put grass everywhere for performance reasons, but this issue was brilliantly addressed by the Delta Force developers, 'Novalogic'.

What they did to solve this issue is to make a soldiers LOD (level of detail) at a distance turn into a "blur" that matches the ground textures (think of the alien in the movie 'predator'). It does not make them invisible but it does make them very difficult to see unless you use binoculars or they move. It is an easy fix to a very annoying issue in this otherwise fun game.

2. True armor ballistics as found in the MMO WWII sim "Battleground Europe".

(old video but it explains it well)

- This will again bring greater detail to a sim game that would add another level of strategy that is needed to stop the boring and mindless "hit point" system.

Edited July 13, 2009 by LockDOwn

[7 0]

If a huge game like WWII online can have realistic ballistics simulation, why not ArmA II?

[whisper 0]

Because A2 also focused on hundreds of other things WWIIOL didn't touch (I looove exageration :) )

Or BI focused on infantry

Or BI lacked time/knowledge/will to change armor system.

Or any mix of the above

Chose you poison :)

Changing armor system means a lot of work. not happening anytime soon, I guess

[Jimmy the Saint 10]

1. I do not really know, but as much as I have read, I think BIS is implenting somekind of system, which will "sink" the player who is prone at a distance into the terrain making him less visible to others. Maybe somebody can confirm this?

2. Are you sure BIS is using a hit-point system - I mean, who told you this?

*edit: Soldiers for example have different "hit-zones". And I do have "proof" for myself (no video though) that hitting a BMP-2 directly with a SMAW destroys it while a indirect hit may just damage it. While the latter effect happens, you can see the crew ejecting the BMP-2.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Jimmy the Saint

[santafee 10]

U can destoy Tanks with Handguns,so yes it has hitpointsystem:p

[whisper 0]

2. Are you sure BIS is using a hit-point system - I mean, who told you this?

*edit: Soldiers for example have different "hit-zones"

Modding the game since OFP. gives a few hints on how it works internally :)

Each part, even for soldiers, have hitpoints.

+ each vehicles (soldiers included) have "global" hitpoints". First depleted has its result applied

example : if hitpoints for the "hands" part of the soldier get too low, your aim start to wooble, that's the effect for this specific part. If you repeatedly get shot in the hands, it will deplete the "global" hitpoints and get you killed.

if hitpoints for the "head" part of the soldier get to 0, you die. It's depleted faster than body (headshot, etc...)

Same for vehicles. Depending on the part hit, some effects will take place. Some of these effects are killing ones, others just incapacitating ones. Global hitpoints depleting will always get you killed, though

Edited July 13, 2009 by whisper

[nkenny 1051]

Very clever suggestions LockDown.

I for one would really like to see some changes to the damage system as well.

[Jimmy the Saint 10]

U can destoy Tanks with Handguns,so yes it has hitpointsystem:p

But its a game - do you think it can handle so many different armour types which are out there? It's good enough when the game can simulate different "hit-zones" I guess. Even when the front of a T-72 will be measured with 10000 hit-points compared to the back of the tank, which might have 5000 points or the turret with 4000. It all comes down to the question of tweaking and balancing aswell as using game and hardware resources.

[whisper 0]

When it comes down to simulating different types of armor, it's very tough with a point based system. How to simulate ERA armor relative efficiency against shaped charge or APFSDS ammunition? It's not the same efficiency, based on ammo type and armor type.

+ tank rounds are not really "additive". If you didn't go through, your second round is not really "more likely" to go through, very dependant on penetration, etc.. which is not taken into account in A2.

Hitpoint system is a simple workaround, not something designed for tank warfare. If unchanged, I simply guess tank warfare was not BI's priority at all

[Jimmy the Saint 10]

You wrote that you are modding the game since OPF. So when I think of those people who have redone or imported missions and objects from OPF and ArmaI into this game, it should be nearly impossible to change anything crucial in the overall game-engine since it might make it impossible to make such mods which are depended on the essential game-engine. What I mean is, changing structures of the game could make it impossible to import old mods or game files - like missions or vehicles from OPF - into this game, like some people already have done.

[frederf 0]

Distance blurring for infantry that kneel or lay down.

- I think it is obvious to anyone who has played this game, especially in PvP, that they fact you are surrounded in grass on your screen yet in plain sight to a soldier at distance is VERY frustrating.

Like this?

[arma2disapointed 10]

Because A2 also focused on hundreds of other things WWIIOL didn't touch (I looove exageration :) )

Or BI focused on infantry

Or BI lacked time/knowledge/will to change armor system.

Or any mix of the above

Chose you poison :)

Changing armor system means a lot of work. not happening anytime soon, I guess

Totaly agree.

Armor system? OFP had a lot of shortcommings on that.

There was modders i think the name was CAV´s somthing, there was somthing really god stuff going on there, maybe somone could do a serch?;)

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

1. I do not really know, but as much as I have read, I think BIS is implenting somekind of system, which will "sink" the player who is prone at a distance into the terrain making him less visible to others. Maybe somebody can confirm this?QUOTE]

I have seen this, questin is what AI think of this, and yeas if its done the right way, this could be useful.

[LockDOwn 0]

Because A2 also focused on hundreds of other things WWIIOL didn't touch (I looove exageration :) )

Or BI focused on infantry

Or BI lacked time/knowledge/will to change armor system.

Or any mix of the above

Chose you poison :)

Changing armor system means a lot of work. not happening anytime soon, I guess

Agreed. The blurring effect is a quick and much needed fix for infantry. The ballistics is a time consuming one but will expand the game greatly.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

Very clever suggestions LockDown.

I for one would really like to see some changes to the damage system as well.

thanks

[whisper 0]

There was modders i think the name was CAV´s somthing, there was somthing really god stuff going on there, maybe somone could do a serch?;)

CAVS - Common Armor Value System (duh, if I'm not mistaken and me old brain didn't fail me :D )

[Alex72 1]

They do sink into the ground in ARMA2. But more when using lower object detail then higher. Was in ArmA1 and i see it in ARMA2 also. I thaught it was a bug from the beginning in ArmA1 (kinda is since people with better PC's didnt sink AI). But i see it when i play now as well (NORMAL object detail) just not as much/often as in ArmA1.

Making people semi transparant where there is grass would be nice indeed. Is it possible though? much FPS hit? thinking of that the grass isnt visible far out- (any FPS that have grass as far as you can see? I havent seen one so far) -and that is because it would hit the performance too hard. Maybe a mask wouldnt hit FPS? Dont know.

But for ARMA2 this should be improved as it might be the last ARMA we get. We should be able to hide in taller grass even when its not drawn.

Alex

[Guest Ti0n3r]

What they did to solve this issue is to make a soldiers LOD (level of detail) at a distance turn into a "blur" that matches the ground textures (think of the alien in the movie 'predator'). It does not make them invisible but it does make them very difficult to see unless you use binoculars or they move. It is an easy fix to a very annoying issue in this otherwise fun game.

Best idea ever. Signed :)

[whisper 0]

Agreed. The blurring effect is a quick and much needed fix for infantry. The ballistics is a time consuming one but will expand the game greatly.

Mmmh, in all honesty, we don't have a clue how difficult it is to implement transparancy for infantry in grass, and how it can hit FPS, and how should the AI relationship with be done, etc....

That's something we'd like to see. How long it takes to do, how difficult it is, who knows?

[LockDOwn 0]

Mmmh, in all honesty, we don't have a clue how difficult it is to implement transparancy for infantry in grass, and how it can hit FPS, and how should the AI relationship with be done, etc....

That's something we'd like to see. How long it takes to do, how difficult it is, who knows?

The games in which I saw it being used were probably 5 years old. I think the technology wont hurt FPS much at all :)

[Jimmy the Saint 10]

Are you talking about the Delta Force games which used to have the Voxel-Engine from Novalogic?

[LockDOwn 0]

Are you talking about the Delta Force games which used to have the Voxel-Engine from Novalogic?

note sure about those details

[kwhy 10]

The games in which I saw it being used were probably 5 years old. I think the technology wont hurt FPS much at all :)

I remember seeing it on Joint Operations Black Hawk Down...multiplayer was actually pretty cool. If I remember correctly they had a sizable amount of players 50 and the netcode wasn't all that bad.

It probably would look like crap If I saw it today, but the grass rendering solution they used was a first back then. I'm surprised it hasn't been duplicated in more games since.

Man I'd love to see a modern warfare MMO game come alive. Maybe one day we'll see a more modern shooter with the scale and realism of ww2online, but with the graphics of Arma2.

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 PM ----------

I remember seeing it on Joint Operations Black Hawk Down...multiplayer was actually pretty cool. If I remember correctly they had a sizable amount of players 50 and the netcode wasn't all that bad.

It probably would look like crap If I saw it today, but the grass rendering solution they used was a first back then. I'm surprised it hasn't been duplicated in more games since.

Man I'd love to see a modern warfare MMO game come alive. Maybe one day we'll see a more modern shooter with the scale and realism of ww2online, but with the graphics of Arma2.

was this how it was ingame?

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[frederf 0]

Are you talking about the Delta Force games which used to have the Voxel-Engine from Novalogic?

He's talking about Joint Operations which was well after Novalogic abandoned voxels. Voxels were only present in DF1 and DF2. From DF:Land Warrior and behind it was all 3D very much like BF1942's engine.

[GRS 10]

I want a playable game before a fancy damage system. :/

[norsu 180]

A more complex damage system for vehicles could be possible with HitPoints class in configs. In that class you can define armor values for different parts of the vehicle, it's also possible to make parts impenetrable. Not sure if it's possible to make different penetration levels though.

I'm thinking of a tank that has front, side, rear and turret armor made of different classes with different values. Of course it would still be possible to take out a tank with a rifle but for AT weapons it could open new possibilities.

However the general "armor" value for vehicles would still be there which essentially defines how many (static) health points they have in total.

[LockDOwn 0]

A more complex damage system for vehicles could be possible with HitPoints class in configs. In that class you can define armor values for different parts of the vehicle, it's also possible to make parts impenetrable. Not sure if it's possible to make different penetration levels though.

I'm thinking of a tank that has front, side, rear and turret armor made of different classes with different values. Of course it would still be possible to take out a tank with a rifle but for AT weapons it could open new possibilities.

However the general "armor" value for vehicles would still be there which essentially defines how many (static) health points they have in total.

Watch the vid. You will see hit points, no matter how you use em, will still be just hit points.