Movement is so sluggish in all BIS games, WHY?

[Farout 10]

The aiming needing to be precise is a basic fundamental aspect of an FPS game. Pretty sad the buyers have to bring this to the attention of the creators.

Oh and because I speak for everyone that wants this game to succeed.

[max power 21]

I think that if you're experiencing mouse problems, likely the framerate is the root cause.

[Farout 10]

nope, def not the case but thanks for the reply =/

why would you make a first person shooter and make the movement sluggish and non precise...sigh.

[eenter 0]

Cause this isn't your casual twitch shooter?

[max power 21]

nope, def not the case but thanks for the reply =/

why would you make a first person shooter and make the movement sluggish and non precise...sigh.

The point was I think that not all of us have the trouble you're having.

And mebe stop the trolling kthnx.

[mr_centipede 31]

what is this the mouse problems you guys are having? i only got the demo but i think the mouse is smooth enough...

[Tomsk 0]

The thing is, when I walk I have inertia. I don't stop immediately. Go ahead and try it and really pay attention. We've been walking around for so long that we instinctively know it'll take a moment to come to a halt, and plan for that without even thinking about it. I think once you get used to the movement system in Arma, you'll do the same thing: release the key shortly before you actually want to stop.

... There's a funny post in in the demo thread about being able to turn 180 degrees "in a heartbeat" in real life, but it takes time to steady yourself and be able to fire a weapon after making a turn like that.

The real life sequence would be: turn, steady, aim.

The industry standard shooter solves this problem by ignoring the "steady" step, and many collapse the "aim" step into it as well. Okay for fast-paced shoot-em-ups, but it allows for very unrealistic things like hurtling down a corridor, stopping immediately, spinning 90 degrees and shooting with pinpoint accuracy.

As I see it, the problem is that in real life we have all sorts of sensory inputs to help us deal with the momentum. We have balance mechanisms in our ears, we can feel the position of our limbs and the way they are moving. All of this means that IRL I can position myself very naturally, even with the momentum. However in a computer game all you've got is a mouse, a keyboard and a screen. That's not nearly the same level of input, and the result is that dealing with the momentum doesn't feel natural, it feels like something you have to fight against ...

As for being able to turn 180 degrees in a heartbeat and fire with instant accuracy, this has been solved in many other games. The very simplest solution is the kind of thing employed in Rainbow Six Raven Shield, or in the original Ghost Recon. When you turn your dispersion increases, this means that after a fast turn you can't fire with perfect accuracy. Now days there are most sophisticated ideas such as having your weapon lag your view. You turn 180 degrees and your view moves instantly, but your weapon turns a little bit slower and so doesn't align with your view for a few moments. Call of duty actually does this if I remember correctly. Generally weapon lag is also combined with some kind of increased dispersion, or equivalent feature.

I can see the creators of ArmA 2 are trying to give a model of movement that is realistic, and in many ways it is quite realistic. Unfortunately the result they've ended up with also feels clunky and awkward. This isn't because it's realistic, it's just because it's the wrong model. There are good realistic models of movement and aiming out there that don't feel even slightly awkward or unnatural and BIS could integrate them into Arma2.

[nomdeplume 0]

I do kind of cringe a bit when I see people calling it a "FPS game". Maybe that's part of what it is; a different mindset. I've never thought of OPF/Arma/Arma2 as being "first person shooters", although they obviously fit the criteria. I really put BIS' games more in the category of flight simulators. When I'm playing DCS: Black Shark and get caught in a vortex ring that pulls to the ground, I don't think "man this flight model is too difficult to use, having to plan flight paths in advance etc." - it's just part of the challenge. So I see it with BIS' games - the restrictions are part of the cohesive whole which is the game world. It's not something you "fight against", but something you work with.

That's not to say if they changed it in a patch and made them more responsive I'd dislike it (although I might, depending on how it changed). Maybe I've just been playing the games too long, but the only times I ever feel constrained or like I'm fighting the movement system is when collision detection starts causing me issues. This is particularly a problem in buildings (there's a few hallways you can walk down but not turn around in, for example, and if you position a soldier on a flight of stairs you might need to be able to move past him), but also sometimes happens with trees and the like (especially if I'm walking in a different direction than I'm looking).

Another factor which I mentioned before is that I do have TrackIR, and if I want to look anywhere I just look there immediately. That might be enough to significantly affect my perception of the controls when on foot.

[max power 21]

As I see it, the problem is that in real life we have all sorts of sensory inputs to help us deal with the momentum. We have balance mechanisms in our ears, we can feel the position of our limbs and the way they are moving. All of this means that IRL I can position myself very naturally, even with the momentum. However in a computer game all you've got is a mouse, a keyboard and a screen. That's not nearly the same level of input, and the result is that dealing with the momentum doesn't feel natural, it feels like something you have to fight against ...

As for being able to turn 180 degrees in a heartbeat and fire with instant accuracy, this has been solved in many other games. The very simplest solution is the kind of thing employed in Rainbow Six Raven Shield, or in the original Ghost Recon. When you turn your dispersion increases, this means that after a fast turn you can't fire with perfect accuracy. Now days there are most sophisticated ideas such as having your weapon lag your view. You turn 180 degrees and your view moves instantly, but your weapon turns a little bit slower and so doesn't align with your view for a few moments. Call of duty actually does this if I remember correctly. Generally weapon lag is also combined with some kind of increased dispersion, or equivalent feature.

I can see the creators of ArmA 2 are trying to give a model of movement that is realistic, and in many ways it is quite realistic. Unfortunately the result they've ended up with also feels clunky and awkward. This isn't because it's realistic, it's just because it's the wrong model. There are good realistic models of movement and aiming out there that don't feel even slightly awkward or unnatural and BIS could integrate them into Arma2.

After a while you get used to it. Then other games feel floaty and disconnected.

[arma2mods 10]

arma2 should scale it playability to option customizable letting player decide how he want it to be played. Even though the game is combat sim it still can keep all it hardcore aspect while adding more options to game play and some other FPS fans that want immediately responsive unrealistic weapon movement, would play this game.

So far in OFP-A1 we have only one basic mandatory of anims/physics/speed, and great thing now we have option bar to adjust gun death zone, but there is need to much more. It should be established that we should have different modules like now we have 4 difficulty levels ,but to playing game play. "looking down the sight" transitions

Every module have they own animation and infantry physics.

1. In OFP2001 -module we make it just as it was done in oOFP and when you jump from that game to A2 you do exactly same amount ofp movement when forward and gun control is 100% similar etc. So you shouldnt not feel any difference when you swap beetween games. (Why didnt you made already this system in A1 would have made current situation much easier)

2. In A2 BASIC NORMAL module keep everything we have in 1.02 and a2 GP players will stay happy

3. Make it even slower some other modules making it appealing to ACE fans.

4. IN general FPS options module looking down the sight transitions is immediate without any delay, there is no weight or slow down movement and anything to distract quick shooter fans. shooting is precise while running, in general it work like any other fast paced FPS and you can enjoy the world of A2 with that game play.

5. You can have any amount of this systems and nothing is removed from game just added, and let mods make so many they own custom they want.

Give us at least 4 diffent modes/profiles of this. I guess it wouldnt be that vast amount of time to code it working, so compared to huge amount spend to some landscape design which in the end do not bring that many new people to game, if the gameplay isnt intuative to them, they say its broken and so the rest of game how good it is does not matter.

When it come to design how to player want it to be played we should drop this current restriction to force every player of Arma2 play it without any alternative options and not only without extra modding which never going to bring any new players .

In the time I ve readed thousands peoples post in various FPS forums letting this games away, when not able to enjoy it. Simple you can just imagine how many people have gave up due they cant play it way they wish. Most of FPS players certainly are adjusted and familiarized to easy game play their character with smooth unrealistic approach. This issue is one of three things critical making A2 less appealing to general masses and meaning huge amount of potential buyers not buying it.

Yes this community would get much more CS/BF/COD and what else fans and but the money they will bring is worth of it to everybody else here and can guarantee much more stable release from future, just ignore them any time they would encounter you HC fans.

DONT MAKE THE GAME AND PLAYER TO BE FORCED TO PLAY ONLY ONE AND GENERAL WAY BUT THE CUSTOMIZABLE via options not BALANCE we currently have it and half arent happy!

No-one in this community lose therefore anything and we dont need to waste so much time to adjusting this values all the time to trying to satisfied the concensus.

I am sorry of my bad presentation but I hope you understand what I mean.

Edited July 1, 2009 by arma2mods
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[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

Human movement isn't done very well in any game I've seen.

For example, deciding to stop when running. Is it immediate or does it take a few seconds? Reality suggests the latter. A whole animation could be added just for that. Same with side-strafing.

The human body has weight and that weight wants to keep going in the vector of travel, even when the human brain has changed its mind at the speed of light.

This was actually one of the things I liked about the Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis demo... it introduced the realism of the clumsiness of human movement, especially when you're traversing uneven terrain in heavy combat boots, loaded down with gear that also doesn't want to change it course.

In many tac-shooters you can do a quick 180 and fire with the same accuracy. When I've played paintball, I've done a 180 so quickly that I've spun myself off my feet. Out of a desire to avoid getting hit, I've jumped backwards into the air and landed flat on my back three separate times. Rappelling down a tower with a loaded mountain pack, my feet touched ground with knees bent (as they should), but the weight of my pack sent me to the ground, flailing around like an overturned turtle or beetle. In Basic Training, I caught someone's duffel bag on my shoulder and tried to run with it to formation. As I rounded the corner of the sidewalk, the duffel wanted to keep going its original course, throwing me off my feet.

I think you should be thanking your lucky stars that B.I. hasn't implemented tripping, ankle sprains, popping your knees, and snapping your Achilles' tendon.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Uziyahu--IDF

[ste4lth004 10]

Hi all, this game is awesome, apart from the animations, they are terrible, its like every movement has been scripted, climbing ladders, parachute drop, climbing over fences,its all scripted, so you end up waiting for the dam script to turn on or off before you make the next movement, why couldnt you just look at battlefield2 animations so much smoother, none of the waiting for next animation to turn on before your next movement crap, oh well, all ill say is bohemia, youve made a great game if you overhaul all the animations in the next patch update, then this game will be best for next 10years, youve got the best map ive ever seen in a game chernarus, and the weapon and vehicles are great, so just get rid of the animation scripted crap and use real time motion capture, then this game will kick ofp2 arse, thx :)

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

They did use real-time motion capture. You think the animations are artificially created?

[max power 21]

IFIAK, from talking to the lead animator earlier in the development cycle, they were saying that almost everything is motion captured so as to be as realistic as possible. I have heard from community members that the mocap was done with actors with a lot of gear on to capture the weight and the centre of gravity but that I don't know.

[Balgorg 10]

I sypethise with the first post, but I go along with some of the others in that there has been an improvement in movement from Arma 1. Its allot smoother.

In terms of making it more like COD style, I wouldnt like that as a permanent feature, but I would like to try it to see how diferent it would be.

Another thread elsewhere talked about the way the mouse isnt responsive enough for competition play. I think a different mode would be great, for the days you might itch to play COD you could just load up an Arma mod or mode that go's for that balls out action.

[ste4lth004 10]

Wow, i thought they did all the animations by hand, well they must of used a penguin on a pogostick, it feels like theres alot of animations missing in between, theres no smoothness in between animations, have alook at the parachute drop animation, when you land theres no bending of knees or anything its just like a switch waiting to be turned on/off for next animation to kick in, same as jumping over small fences, i dont want to wait for these mini cutscenes while im getting shot not good,

[JOGR 0]

Movement speed in ARMA is realistic. It's not sluggish. Could be a performance issue.

[Baff1 0]

Human movement isn't done very well in any game I've seen.

GRAW for PC is worth checking out for human movement. Also Vietcong and Vietcong 2.

[whisper 0]

Do we know there is explicit smoothing put into the game? I've not seen a single statement from the dev saying so. It's people having issues that jump on the conclusion and profer "there is smoothing, remove it!". Like it's that simple....

And what if it's not smoothing, it's something more subtle, some interaction between FPS issues, rendering with effects, etc... making the whole mouse lag issue appear? The fact that FPS have such a huge impact do not smell at all like simple smoothing to me.

that's why I'd suggest opening a tracker for this issue, and reporting configurations and setup that have mouse-lag issues, and what impact the quantity of mouse-lag you get.

For exemple, I've an enormous difference between mouse-lag at intermediate graphical options and ~15 FPS and lower graphical options and ~40FPS. Mouse lag never disappears but at 40 FPS it's nowhere near the level of lag I get at 15 (which is itself far under what I've seen in a video of ArmA1)

EDIT : http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/2376 seems to be a correct place for this

Edited July 2, 2009 by whisper

[ste4lth004 10]

Theres nothing wrong with the performance, its great, im talking about the inbetween actions, like running up to a fence and jumping over it in one smooth action, you cant on this game, play some gta4 or splintercell, then youll see each two actions is blended alot better.

[thefoolio888 10]

Seems to be an awful lot of people complaining that they can't aim quick enough, move quick enough or do something else quick enough because of the way the engine is designed.

The fact that you can't react in an instant, and therefore play the game in a way which it encourages, is the very reason than many people (including me) play this game.

[whisper 0]

I was talking about the OP and the mouselag issue

[thomas82 10]

i say it again..

movement/aiming was 1000 times better in OFP (CWC/RESISTANCE) then in ARMA1 / ARMA2

..thats why u see only cti / coop players on the servers

[whisper 0]

i say it again..

movement/aiming was 1000 times better in OFP (CWC/RESISTANCE) then in ARMA1 / ARMA2

..thats why u see only cti / coop players on the servers

I honestly had the same issue as now when I installed Resistance, mainly in forest with their super new uber bushes and trees of Nogova island

[PurpleXVI 10]

Speaking of movement issues, am I the only one who occasionally finds that it's possible to get stuck in narrow spaces? I mean, it makes sense that I can't just wave my machinegun through a wall, but it can get really annoying at times that my guy seems to take up so much damn space. Even with a normal assault rifle and just trying to navigate a stairwell, I find myself bumping into walls and obstacles all the time!

It feels like my soldier is just ever so slightly larger than he ought to be, it's weird.