ARMA 2 Micro AI Thread

[froggyluv 2135]

I think I've figured out why you had different results. My skill/precision values in the cnfg. were set to .5 for enemies. I ran that sniper test over and over and it was always 0. Now, I just changed those values back to the default "1" and indeed, after the shot, knowsabout went straight to 1.4. I guess the values in the cnfg. override any skill sliders or direct input values for soldiers.

I tried to upload on youtube, 900mb for a 30 sec. avi file? And then it failed:mad: Any tips?

[fabrizio_t 58]

Ok, some more observations: things seem to change in relation with:

1) distance between player and victim (= D)

2) weapon used by the player

Examples:

D <= 50m.

- kill (bodyshot) with M107: knowsabout = 1.4, perceived distance is shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M249: knowsabout = 1.4, perceived distance is shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M4 scoped: knowsabout = 1.5, perceived distance is shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M4: knowsabout = 1.5, perceived distance is shown

D = 150m.

- kill (bodyshot) with M107: knowsabout = 0, no perceived distance shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M249: knowsabout = 0, no perceived distance shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M4 scoped: knowsabout = 1.5, perceived distance is shown

- kill (bodyshot) with M4: knowsabout = 1.5, perceived distance is shown

Also: since i have seen that at least some times:

(distance betwen enemy perceived player position and player position) < (distance player vs victim)

I can't assume that enemy is actually simply thinking that player is somewhere near the victim.

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

I tried to upload on youtube, 900mb for a 30 sec. avi file? And then it failed:mad: Any tips?

If you own Vista try publish the vid with MOVIE MAKER, you can compress it to a few dozen megabytes.

Hint: open startup menu and type "MOVIE MAKER" in the search box.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------

I guess the values in the cnfg. override any skill sliders or direct input values for soldiers.

Yes they override editor skill settings.

Edited June 13, 2009 by fabrizioT

[froggyluv 2135]

Ok, here's the vid but you can barely see the numbers but I can assure you they are all 0's and yes it stays that way even after the 30 sec video.

It's definitely the cnfg settings as I've been switching back in forth between "0.5" and "1" and the results are always the same, meaning "0.5" no response; "1" always response. "1" is just too high for default.

[fabrizio_t 58]

@froggyluv:

Please try making some tests with different distance and weapons and skill/precision maxed in armaProfile.

I agree these values can be too high (0.8 can be good enough), but we should test the game with highest settings or we won't be able to understand exactly what's broken with AI mechanics.

heavily dumbed-down skills may sometimes hide, not solve, the AI problems.

Also consider that setting "skill" values to around 0.5 may lead AI units to have problems on spotting on distance and have slow reactions.

Setting "precision" values to around 0.5 may lead to slow aim taking and major issues with friendly fire (think about machinegunners).

At least that's what happened in ArmA and i witnessed it.

Edited June 13, 2009 by fabrizioT

[froggyluv 2135]

Man I'm starting to feel like Clockwork Orange with all this AI testing :eek:

It's really hard to present my experience as I can only record 30 secs. and often it takes longer to see how the AI plays out. Honestly, Arma's config settings were to high by default rendering the game unfun 'less tweaked and I believe they were set to high yet again. You may be right that lowering the skill setting too low might be masking inadequacies in the game but I find that 0.6-0.8 in the skill settings to be pretty fine. Actually the more I test it, the more impressed I am, as even when the AI is zero'ing on my location, using your script, I can still evade and lose them rendering their whole search obsolete and they eventually give up. I think that's pretty damn impressive for a game on this scale with an unhinged AI. Probably still room for tweaks, but for me, a simple cnfg change gives me a pretty desirable effect.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I agree that lowering the default VETERAN settings lead to way better and more realistic firefights.

Best settings so far for me are:

- 0.85/0.80 for skillFriendly / skillEnemy

- 0.80/0.75 for precisionFriendly / precisionEnemy.

Now back on topic: I hope more people will join and help to better understand the issues depicted above.

For me it's time do do something else, after an entire afternoon wasted on my PC ;)

Edited June 13, 2009 by fabrizioT

[bloodbomb 12]

you know what would be really good?

Developers and actual game makers dispelling some of these myths, or at least commenting on this issue...cause I tell ya there are a few people I know that arent buying the game because of reports of hax AI...might wanna rectify that guys?...

[4 IN 1 0]

If it is not too troubles to you guys, I would also want to see the test result of using satchel charges, as since ARMA, touching off a satchel charges will result in enemy finding you very easily, is it changed in ARMA2?

[dvolk 10]

I blew up a satchel near some moving infantry, killing some of them. They couldn't see me, so they dispersed in all directions. Soon as I moved an inch though, BOOM HEADSHOT.

This was on skill/precision 1.0. They probably have a harder time on lower levels.

[4 IN 1 0]

How far is your position from the hitpoint?

[fabrizio_t 58]

The issue depicted here was posted to the bugtracker, so the developers will eventually shed some light on it:

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/2067

I invite those who own the game to check it out and give feedback.

I invite other people to vote for that issue so it can be handled with higher priority.

Edited June 14, 2009 by fabrizioT

[KeyCat 131]

If it is not too troubles to you guys, I would also want to see the test result of using satchel charges, as since ARMA, touching off a satchel charges will result in enemy finding you very easily, is it changed in ARMA2?

This was fixed in ArmA with a patch quite a while ago.

However, recent user reports indicate the issue are back in current ArmA II version but I'm sure it will be fixed. Maybe it is somehow related to the other AI detection issues some people experience?

/KC

[fabrizio_t 58]

Thank you all for supporting,

the issue i posted today on the bugtracker is now marked as ASSIGNED.

I hope that it will be sorted as soon as possible.

[KJT 0]

fabrizioT,

I tested your sample mission. When I killed the soldier from ~70 meters, the reported distance between me and assumed killer was always randomly less or more than that.

Then I used SetPos to place a soldier unit to the target position to see where the actual position was. I found out that killer position was generally as far from me as it was from the killed soldier. And it was sometimes at front side of the killed soldier but more often at the back side (but usually not close to my position).

Once I even missed with couple first shots and I was reported (but not directly seen). And even in that case the reported killer position was 100 meters from where I was.

I also tested shooting with scope from 400 meters. When I was able to kill with the first shot, the result was otherwise same as with the shorter distance, but the reported distance was also longer, usually 200-500 meters (once only 100 meters and in front side of the killed soldier).

So the leader knows quite fast that the soldier is killed and some random position of the killer. After all he is in radio contact with the soldier and probably hears him dying and could hear the shooting as well (there must some logic like that)? Then distance between the leader and killed soldier really doesn't matter (but usually all group members are close to each other anyway).

-KJT-

[KJT 0]

I changed fabrizioT's mission so that I was able to test satchel charge as well. This time I used a marker to show the suggested target position. Now the soldier was allowed to run towards his team leader 10 km away through a small town. I placed a satchel charge in the middle of the town and went hiding in a nearby house so that I could not been seen and waited until he was close to the charge.

First I killed the soldier with the charge and in that case the leader's knowsabout level of me stayed zero (I tested couple times).

Then I blowed the charge so that the soldier stayed alive. After few seconds the leader's knowsabout level changed to 0.1 but soldier continued running - so in this case I was not recognized as a target yet.

I did the same again but in this case I was hiding outside. I noticed that if there was even small chance that the soldier could spot me - even if he was running away from me - he did so and the knowsabout level changed from 0.1 to 1.5 and my position was discovered accurately

Next I added three more soldiers. I went to hide outside about 100 meters from the charge place behind 1-2 buildings and a wall. I blowed the charge so that only 1 soldier died. Their knowsabout level of me changed to 1.5 but the suggested bomber position was usually not close to me - actually quite often at the other side of the town. But the soldiers started searching for me and always found me in one minute or so - too quickly in my mind - like they knew where to look next. And quite often they seemed to have spotted me through a thick wall (maybe wall was missing some geometry data).

And then I did the same again but this time I was hiding inside a building. Again knowsabout level changed to 1.5 after killing one of them and the suggested bomber position was usually at the other side of the town. But this time they just continued to run towards the leader and did not try to search me!

So there is something wrong here with AI behaviour. If you are hiding outside they try to search you but if you are inside a house they ignore you even if the knowsabout value is 1.5.

-KJT-

[turin turambar 0]

I just don't understand :(. I was playing yesterday a combat mission (the one done with the wizard that gives you SecOps+Artillery+ACM) and my squad and also myself detected ("contact!, enemy in front of us!") a enemy squad when it was --impossible-- to see anyone. The problem is, there was a stripe of forest between ourselves and the enemy, with a minimum of 5 trees in the thinnest point, and a slight slope in the terrain (both groups were in different height) so the big foliage of the trees were blocking the direct line of vision between the two groups, it wasn't only the trunk of the trees. No sound from my squad or the enemy was produced, but still the detecion was produced.

I would like a revision of all this system in the game done by the devs. There has to be a bug or some stupid feature like "if you or the AI has LOS with a frigging pixel for 0.0001 seconds of the enemy then there is detection".

This, and the scripting bugs in the campaign, are the two main problems of the game. Some hardcore fans doesn't understand the bad impression it gives to new players, because it seems like the game is cheating (even if it isn't really) and makes it frustrating,

[whisper 0]

1) the fact the AI sees through grass layer has a huge impact on the perception you get that they are cheating, because most of the time you don't see them through this vegetation but they see you. Try a bit with lower terrain detail (without vegetation), you'll see a big difference in spottability. BI is fixing this hopefully soon, they confirmed working on it.

2) waiting for BI to fix the uber-spotting ability of the AI, I can only suggest to try lowering AI Skill and Precision in your configuration files (username.ArmAProfile in your username ArmAII folder), stg around 0.7 I heard does the trick

[turin turambar 0]

I already know (and suffered it, lol) about the grass, i also know that Ohara or another BIS dev said they will change it, but this time were the trees. Trees and bushes should obscure visibility, doesn't it?

[whisper 0]

It should :) but yeah, with default skill and precision, AI is a bit fast sometimes (quite strange cause it's not automatic) to detect your toe moving out of cover :(

Something to test,also, is ennemy position communication amongst an entire side, not only a squad, in ArmA2. I often see on map ennemy units that clearly can't be seen by my own squad members, but that a unit on my side could have seen

[My Fing ID 0]

The grass sucks, especially since I like my 240B. Can't see anything in the prone and can't shoot anything unless prone. Anyway hopefully they fix the AI not seeing grass or whatever.

I'm pretty happy with the engagements so far. The AI and I now seem to compete for corners in cities and while the field doesn't seem that different I haven't been hit with a magic bullet from 500m through the trees yet. If anything I've taken more injuries than fatal shots. The grass is the biggest complaint I have so far. I'm pretty impressed. Also its really cool to see Russian gear. I've wanted to toy around with some and hope its as accurate as the US gear is.

[MBot 0]

The grass sucks, especially since I like my 240B. Can't see anything in the prone and can't shoot anything unless prone. Anyway hopefully they fix the AI not seeing grass or whatever.

That is also a pretty big problem I have with MGs, since we are not able to rest it on elevated objects.

[whisper 0]

I had my first "is that guy AI or player?" moment in Warfare yesterday :)

I was pretty sure it was a AI, leaning at a corner and retrating when suppressed (which made me go "wow"), but like 2 minutes later I got killed by a player, so that was maybe him earlier.

But the fact that I began to wonder just tells there's something definitely better in A2 AI, way better than precedent installments.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Can't you make grass less annoying by 'prepping' a firing site? Walk the grass down so to speak. Dunno for sure, can't test.

[maddogx 13]

Can't you make grass less annoying by 'prepping' a firing site? Walk the grass down so to speak. Dunno for sure, can't test.

Yep, you can roll/crawl around to flatten the grass in a certain area. Works pretty well. :)

[l mandrake 9]

Moved this from the impressions thread as it seems more appropriate here:

Hmm, I think the AI's use of suppressing fire is very impressive, however, whenever I am being suppressed, even at long distance, it seems I am always hit by the first or second bullet. After that, the incoming fire seems to grow less accurate, but this is no good as I am already injured and unable to shoot back accurately.

I think this really needs adjustment - the suppressive fire should be wild at first and grow steadily more accurate as the enemy figures out your location.

Also the AI's reaction times are sometimes (not always) superhuman. E.g. I'm a sniper 400m away in a ghillie suit, I fire 1 shot at an enemy squad and they return fire (accurately!) in less than 5 seconds.... this can't be right.

Overall, it's still a massive improvement over A1 - I think we're getting there but there's room for improvement...