Rasa-be 10 Posted June 25, 2009 Hell, any video with take five rocks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hyp3rdyn3 10 Posted June 25, 2009 Excuse me that is no contract, that's a sdk request. What legal bound is everyone talking about, can anyone show me physical evidences of it? "Requires signed license agreement" = contract Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jorge.PT 10 Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) "Requires signed license agreement" = contract But that license agreement doesn't mean that there are exclusivity rights, even freetrack as a GNU General Public License. EDIT: And by the way a license is not a contract In some Common Law jurisdictions, the legal distinction between a license and a contract is an important one: contracts are enforceable by contract law, whereas licenses are enforced under copyright law. Edited June 25, 2009 by Jorge.PT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supah 0 Posted June 25, 2009 If I were the FreeTrack people I would complain to the European Union representative Mrs. Kroes about this. If microsoft isn't even allowed to incorporate its own webbrowser into its own Operating System then this must be as illegal as it gets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overkill1 0 Posted June 25, 2009 Stands to reason if it was supported in ArmA but NOT in ArmA2 then its been pulled due to agreement. Strange though as that would now limit game sales as the word spread it does not support freetrack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Oh Dear... I'm getting awful tired of this debate... Actually - there IS no debate... just a lot of seriously disappointed customers ranting slightly in frustration... My turn (again)... (BIG Post alert!)... For the new arrivals to the thread who haven't read it all - and, yes, its getting to be a BIG thread now..... Quoted courtesy of Quarrion - the creator of the BlackShark "Fix" for Freetrack - AND OTHERS... (lets not forget this isn't JUST about Freetrack...) NaturalPoint are using a new encrypted TrackIR interface in v4.1.036 of their software that is incompatible with the standard TrackIR interface used by FreeTrack, TrackIR 1/2, GlovePIE, NewView and others. DCS: Black Shark is the first game to use this new interface. [And now ArmA2] The only change in the game client is the inclusion of a decryption function which, when sent unencrypted tracking data, scrambles it into an unintelligible mess. This is then recognized as invalid data and ignored.NaturalPoint's monopoly over 6DOF head tracking in games makes their encryption of the TrackIR interface and exclusivity requirement, which prevents games that support TrackIR from adopting alternative 6DOF interfaces, a likely violation of US anti-competition law. See here for the full spiel by Quarrion on the Freetrack forums... *** Including - if you're a potential US customer - links to the US Department of Justice, the Federal Trade Commission, the Dept of Justice antitrust Division, and other handy US addresses you can check out, or even approach - if you're a US Consumer and you're so inclined... *** Now.. why are Eagle (creators of BlackShark) working on their own API ? Who knows... all we can do is speculate... perhaps they realised they were essentially "owned" by Naturalpoint on this particular topic and didn't like that... Perhaps they started getting grief in the enormous US Market, where Free Competition is King and litigation is a way of life...?? Who knows..... Another thing... I'm also getting REALLY tired of being dismissed as some cheapass DIY'er just because I prefer Freetrack... Does THIS look like a cheapass system to you??? I used to own a Track IR - it WAS good! - it also got REALLY hot, and one day the cam just burned out... its a recognised fault - see the new TrackIR 5 adverts where they boast of new heat-handling... just as well - it needed it!! Spend another £100+ on a new one??? No thanks! After it died, I bought a £15 IR webcam and continued to use the Naturalpoint Hatclip... That worked fine, but I don't like wearing a hat, so eventually I acquired a custom built sideclip... My Cam Is Unmodified - no IR Filter, no disassembly - straight out of the box, adjust the exposure control and it works fine... Standard room illumination, daylight from a window... works fine... NO DIY!!! The Natural point hatclip which you can buy off their website isn't the best design in the world, and from an efficiency and engineering point of view, my custom clip utterly blows it away, but its available - to buy - NO DIY !!!!! I'll just make that point again... CAM - Commercial Product freely available CLIP - Commercial Product freely available SOFTWARE - Free Product released under license ... so, being continually dismissed as some sort of cheapskate is really beginning to p*** me off! Finally... @mehman and others... you make it sound so easy. there's a bit more in play than cracking an exe. Possibly, possibly not... To somehow add a legitimate Freetrack or other API to the Arma2 engine is likely NOT very easy - unless you're a Dev... I'm not a programmer, but it likely would involve an .exe patch - I'm not sure if its even possible - not my Area Of Expertise... If we were merely interested in piggybacking Freetrack on to the back of TrackIR, then the Black Shark fix, for example, disabled decryption by replacing the corresponding function call with NOPs, via a .dll... Kegetys used a loosely similar trick with shaders in his "noblur" mod... I'll end with a couple of Kegetys quotes from this very thread..... The only thing needed to have both TrackIR and freetrack (and, as far as I know, older TrackIR devices) working is to not "use" the encryption introduced in the newest TrackIR interface. There seems to be no reason for the encryption other than to break compatibility with other devices, so I see no sane reason why it should be used (or, most importantly, added, as it is not used in ArmA). Having separate FreeTrack API support and encrypted TrackIR interface support seems just a waste of time and effort to me when both can work fine with what's used now. The API is there just to pass the position values to the application, its basically just six float values and nothing else in the TIR4 API (+ some extra features like ability to trigger centering). I cant imagine why there would need to be anything more complicated for TIR 5 Like many of us who have been involved with this thread from the beginning (and before)... I'm Tired! Tired of the endless pointless debate, the endless pointless speculation about agreements, BIS's unhöflich refusal to even comment one way or the other... As tired of getting nowhere as BIS would like us all to get?? Nice video Ferujo - very creative..... be careful - creative gets you dismissed as "DIY" and therefore unimportant.... B Edited June 25, 2009 by Bushlurker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truman 10 Posted June 25, 2009 i got it workin with freetrack + ppjoy. Its just a question of endurance. I dont know if this is the right forum to post the settings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fincuan 0 Posted June 25, 2009 Go ahed and post the settings, it'll help some people. For x64 users there's still no option because PPJoy won't work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ndepal 10 Posted June 25, 2009 i got it workin with freetrack + ppjoy. Its just a question of endurance.I dont know if this is the right forum to post the settings. this is a good place to post your settings and how you got everything to work. im sure many people beside myself would really appreciate it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truman 10 Posted June 25, 2009 dont you think bohemia will close the gap, cause they dont want anybody to use freetrack with arma2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) an x64 compatible anything resembling ppJoy would make a LOT of people very happy..... B PS dont you think bohemia will close the gap, cause they dont want anybody to use freetrack with arma2? I dont think BIS are the issue - Naturalpoint don't want you to use Freetrack, or anything else - with Arma2 - thats why they tie people like BIS to licenses and contracts, forbidding the use of interfaces other than their own... On the other hand, being licensees (if indeed, such an agreement exists) BIS, are unlikely to relent and install an alternative API at our request - whether they think its a good idea or not - if they're being legally prevented from doing so... IF it's the same situation as BlackShark then it works like this... The TrackIR API is included in the game - its encoded - only trackIR 4 and 5 can use it The contract stipulates that no other tracking API be included in the game So no using the trackIR interface with anything other than trackIR, and no possibility of using anything else, since BIS are not legally allowed to install any other API execpt trackIR's Of course - ALL this talk of contracts and agreements is just me guessing based on the previous situation with trackIR and Blackshark..... BIS ain't had nuffin to say on the topic one way or another... so far..... Edited June 25, 2009 by Bushlurker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truman 10 Posted June 25, 2009 to install ppjoy: http://trackir.awardspace.com/Manuals/PPJoy_V2.1EN.pdf when calibrating the "joystick" attend that: z-axis means to put your head in the horizontal x-rotation means to move your head to the front and back z-rotation means to strafe left and right the next to last (in german schieberegler) means up and down. After Calibrating the Joystick change your freetrack setting as shown in the pictures. After that start the game and set the controls. You dont have to change the properties of the controler in the game. The most important setting is the curve-setting in freetrack., Without this you have an "auto center" function. I hope i helped you. Pictures: http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06YdIFCSfv5rHKfzO.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.069xbhHVu7fAnrcBK.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06bYVlQD1lFd1AbJH.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06vh1QcS7YBKOYyS7.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jorge.PT 10 Posted June 26, 2009 Nice post Truman, it will help allot of people getting ppjoy to work with arma2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arrowhead 0 Posted June 26, 2009 to install ppjoy:http://trackir.awardspace.com/Manuals/PPJoy_V2.1EN.pdf when calibrating the "joystick" attend that: z-axis means to put your head in the horizontal x-rotation means to move your head to the front and back z-rotation means to strafe left and right the next to last (in german schieberegler) means up and down. After Calibrating the Joystick change your freetrack setting as shown in the pictures. After that start the game and set the controls. You dont have to change the properties of the controler in the game. The most important setting is the curve-setting in freetrack., Without this you have an "auto center" function. I hope i helped you. Pictures: http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06YdIFCSfv5rHKfzO.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.069xbhHVu7fAnrcBK.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06bYVlQD1lFd1AbJH.jpg http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=26.06vh1QcS7YBKOYyS7.jpg How well does ppjoy work? And I hope it doesn't conflict with a regular joystick so that I can fly with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted June 26, 2009 with ppJoy its tracking OR joystick I'm afraid Arrowhead - AFAIK, and I've heard its not so smooth.... I'm one of the x64 guys - it fails to install for me... If you give it a go - please report back and let us all know your impressions if you would... B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arrowhead 0 Posted June 26, 2009 with ppJoy its tracking OR joystick I'm afraid Arrowhead - AFAIK, and I've heard its not so smooth.... I'm one of the x64 guys - it fails to install for me...If you give it a go - please report back and let us all know your impressions if you would... B I'm on Vista64, and I need joystick support. I probably won't bother with this then. :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hyp3rdyn3 10 Posted June 26, 2009 x64 needs signed drivers which free software probably can't afford ppjoy is a pain to setup and joystick emulation less precise anyway And you can't make concessions and be satisfied with an inferior alternative when the industry standard interface is being unfairly and possibly illegally blocked. I mean, if joystick emulation is not good enough for TrackIR then it shouldn't be good enough for FreeTrack either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike84 1 Posted June 26, 2009 What about reporting Bis or trackir to the european commision? I think Neelie Kroes likes this kinda stuff... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truman 10 Posted June 26, 2009 for me it works fine, i dont know if you can copy/paste the settings, but on my computer it works smooth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YagyuRetsudo 10 Posted June 26, 2009 Given the lack of information from BIS, there are two possibilities: 1) Naturalpoint have blocked older versions of trackIR and other headtracking from using the trackIR API, but have not prevented BIS from implementing others: in which case it is a very simple matter for BIS to add freetrack support into the next patch, and just requires more public pressure for them to do so. 2) Naturalpoint have blocked older versions of trackIR and other headtracking from using the trackIR API, AND have tried to create a monopoly by (illegally) preventing BIS from supporting other headtrackers. In which case I recommend all EU citizens affected to report this to the Antitrust commission: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/contacts/antitrust_mail.html and in the US to the relevant authorities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kremator 1065 Posted June 26, 2009 More information please ..... or the link ^^ gets clicked :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Placebo 29 Posted June 26, 2009 Yes I said this can be discussed again, I did not say you can discuss Naturalpoint's business decisions, encryption of their API etc. etc. if Freetrack wants to be supported in games/apps then surely the onus is on them to provide everything that's required, if they can only provide a system/method that requires jerry rigging onto another company's software/API/IP or such then that should be something discussed directly with them.I provided clear opinion in the last thread about one company choosing to encrypt/protect their own API/Software/IP digging up the same topic over and over is pointless and serves only to inflame the situation. To start the new thread with the very same allegations and insinuations moves the whole topic closer and closer to a topic that will end up not being discussable on these forums. Well as I've been ignored repeatedly, can't say you weren't warned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
