Shaky hands & blurred vision

[Alex72 1]

I read in the intervju about bullets passing close to you will make your hands shake and you get blurred vision in AA2.

I really hope this wont affect gameplay too much as in real life some might crap their pants when bullets go by and some not. Im thinking about how a lot of PvP'ers left ArmA and that it would be nice to get them back in ArmA2. But with this it means that when they run around fast paced urban style fighting where bullets zing by everywhere, they will very often get shaky hands and blurred vision. I dont think that will appeal to PvP'ers tbh. I saw the videos and seeing that you can move a bit faster/nicer now is a big plus for PvP'ers, but it might be clouded by the shaky/blurryness when bullets pass you.

Just a reflection on my part so far though, i dont know how bad you shake and if you can shoot back somewhat accuratelly during the shakes/blurres. Im more of a coop guy myself, but i dont think that is good that when in fire fights we all have blurred vision and shaky aims. Grenades go off close to you turn down hearing and make you shaky/blurred vision is good though. Hope they make sure ArmA wont turn into a "shaky-blur-fest" because to me the bullet cracks and bullet impacts around me (sounds! ) make me stay down and nervous to fire back. And thats good enough - and very immersive as long as the sounds are good quality.

Regards

Alex

[sparks50 0]

I think it works very well in Reality Mod. And thats pvp all the way.

[celery 8]

From what I've experienced, panic effects are created by players themselves depending on how they react to threats. Some of us get suppressed and jittery under fire while others hardly blink. Simulating a reaction than not everyone even has just takes control away from the player.

[Michael_Wittman 0]

Yeap...morale on player side shoudlnt be simulated...they ´d better do that on IA.

Anyway...I think the real reason why most of PvP players flee from the game was the complete lack of decent anti-cheating protection.

[twisted 127]

you know i am for the simulated effects of suppression of a player.

a similar effect is done in the insurgency mod for hl2 and it's great becasue incoming fire does affect you rather than you not caring one bit about bullets hitting around ones head.

really makes the difference in feeling immersed in the battlefield and that is hopefully a feeling that arma2 delivers.

[sparks50 0]

Yes it definitely helps on the immersion. As for those who want to play as "tough" soldiers, I doubt anyone would not get very stressed from close incoming fire.

[sbsmac 0]

FWIW, I played a bit of Project Reality and thought the suppression effects made the overall experience more enjoyable. Working as a team to suppress the enemy actually started to make some sense.

In OFP and Arma pvp, there was very little incentive to loose off suppressive fire in someone's general direction - all you did was make yourself a more obvious target without affecting the person you were shooting at in the slightest.

>Some of us get suppressed and jittery under fire while others hardly blink

I dare say there are a few people who are willing to stand perfectly still under incoming fire and calmly take aim at the enemy. In OFP/Arma, that was the typical way pvp was played but if you watch any of the real-life iraq/afghanistan footage you see the vast majority of guys hunkering down behind solid cover keeping their heads down when the bullets are whistling overhead.

[celery 8]

Yes it definitely helps on the immersion. As for those who want to play as "tough" soldiers, I doubt anyone would not get very stressed from close incoming fire.

Getting shot at in a game where one shot can kill is already a distressing thing and anyone with an organic brain can react accordingly - either by hesitating, looking for cover or having a staring contest with Mr. Death.

FWIW, I played a bit of Project Reality and thought the suppression effects made the overall experience more enjoyable. Working as a team to suppress the enemy actually started to make some sense.

In OFP and Arma pvp, there was very little incentive to loose off suppressive fire in someone's general direction - all you did was make yourself a more obvious target without affecting the person you were shooting at in the slightest.

>Some of us get suppressed and jittery under fire while others hardly blink

I dare say there are a few people who are willing to stand perfectly still under incoming fire and calmly take aim at the enemy.  In OFP/Arma, that was the typical way pvp was played but if you watch any of the real-life iraq/afghanistan footage you see the vast majority of guys hunkering down behind solid cover keeping their heads down when the bullets are whistling overhead.

The frequency of standoffs depends very much on the game type. In a CTF with a rapid respawn time there just isn't any sense in prolonging fights. In IC-ArmA for example where death results in 30 seconds of respawning and 2-5 minutes of deployment, you logically get more careful and stay in cover when fired at. Again the reaction, involuntary or not, depends on the player.

[sbsmac 0]

>Again the reaction, involuntary or not, depends on the player.

The bottom line is that in-game and real-life subjective experiences are completely different, resulting in very different behaviours and game tactics.

IRL, self-protection is a much stronger instinct and small-scale cover is much more effective.  Real firefights appear to be much more static than in game, there are many thousands of rounds expended just to keep the enemy's heads down, and you rarely see the enemy at all.  Fire and manouver is an effective tactic.

In-game, even waiting 5 minutes to respawn is not a terribly great source of stress and ground is as flat as a pancake meaning that there aren't even many places where taking cover is a viable alternative to just firing back and hoping you hit your attacker before they hit you.  Back in the day when we played OFP, the only sensible thing to do when fired upon was to spin round and shoot back - diving for the ground was completely pointless and the sure sign of a beginner ! Moving in formation with others was just a recipe to get a bunch of you killed and fire and manouver was a waste of time.  As was trying to use a 'suppressive' weapon such as the M60 which immediately marked you down as someone who was going to end up with a KDR of about 0.001 ;-)

Anyway, I'm not going to claim that blurred vision/shaking hands adequately address the simulation of suppression - I think that can only happen when you couple it with micro-scale terrain that provides cover but I still stand by my statement that the _subjective_ experience of playing with it in PR made for a more 'realistic' experience than in OFP or Arma.

[Second 0]

>Some of us get suppressed and jittery under fire while others hardly blink

I dare say there are a few people who are willing to stand perfectly still under incoming fire and calmly take aim at the enemy.  In OFP/Arma, that was the typical way pvp was played but if you watch any of the real-life iraq/afghanistan footage you see the vast majority of guys hunkering down behind solid cover keeping their heads down when the bullets are whistling overhead.

Most footage from Iraq/Afganistan are somewhat false testimonies as they don't put men into head-to-head situation where they have clear or even partial visibility to they target. Mostly just blind firing at something by both sides. PvP and warzone ain't the same thing.

Hard to say what reality with human being would be when he is put into PvP-like kill-or-be-killed situation where his only way to prevail is to shoot fast+well and he is aware of it. I'd say that majority of trained (or even untrained) humans are capable to steady their nerves. Weaponhandling skillz then tells are you going to hit or miss. Mostly panicking seems to be when one isn't sure about his role, or don't know what he should do. I believe that about 10% of human kind are those how just are prone to panic even if they have knowledge/training or even motivation to act... But then again that is far from hand's shaking and blurring. As it's more related to run or fight attitude  (in game would cause cover seeking or shooting back reaction)

Ever see guy who's car trips to ditch, or something else happens. If he is smokers, watch their cigar and hands. If they are not smokers ask their autograph and watch pen and handwriting Adrenaline probably rushing thru veins in heavy enough doses. Reason why armies (usually) train their men shooting so that weapon's steadiness relies as little as possible to small muscles, as i'would guess they are more prone to uncontrollable shaking. Hard t think that anyone would be immune to it... but there probably are people who remain calmer under same conditions. Experience probably is one key factor as well: inexperienced guys are prone to get more scared (=adrenaline) than veterans, so they might react to something which doesn't present danger to them, like bullet cracks from long distance.

I hate to play as sharpshooter, it feels good in games that i'm not immune to it. So because of that i would welcome it. In PVP scale what i've mostly seen it' probably won't affect much. More misses at long distances and from less than 100 meters it might not have much anykind effect (as target is so close). So i'd say we are not talking about very drastic effects. Think how fatigue affects in accuracy.

Btw. How Brother In Arms' multiplayer worked? I never actually tried it in MP.

[sbsmac 0]

>I'd say that majority of trained (or even untrained) humans are capable to steady their nerves.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I don't believe that blurred vision and shaky hands are a true phsysiological reaction to being under fire. However, as an in-game mechanism for reinforcing the behaviour that tends to happen in real-life (rapidly seeking cover, inability to accurately return fire) it seems to work effectively.

Like I said, I enjoyed PvP in OFP and (a bit less) in ArmA.  At the end of the day it is a game and I suspect that even the most die-hard co-op players would soon tire of the level of simulation that has you firing blindly at the nearest treeline for 6 hours with no measurable effect. I found the experience of being 'pinned down' in PR far more immersive than anything in OFP.  Therefore, I'd be in favour of some level of suppressive effects.

[whisper 0]

Yes it definitely helps on the immersion. As for those who want to play as "tough" soldiers, I doubt anyone would not get very stressed from close incoming fire.

Getting shot at in a game where one shot can kill is already a distressing thing and anyone with an organic brain can react accordingly - either by hesitating, looking for cover or having a staring contest with Mr. Death.

FWIW, I played a bit of Project Reality and thought the suppression effects made the overall experience more enjoyable. Working as a team to suppress the enemy actually started to make some sense.

In OFP and Arma pvp, there was very little incentive to loose off suppressive fire in someone's general direction - all you did was make yourself a more obvious target without affecting the person you were shooting at in the slightest.

>Some of us get suppressed and jittery under fire while others hardly blink

I dare say there are a few people who are willing to stand perfectly still under incoming fire and calmly take aim at the enemy.  In OFP/Arma, that was the typical way pvp was played but if you watch any of the real-life iraq/afghanistan footage you see the vast majority of guys hunkering down behind solid cover keeping their heads down when the bullets are whistling overhead.

The frequency of standoffs depends very much on the game type. In a CTF with a rapid respawn time there just isn't any sense in prolonging fights. In IC-ArmA for example where death results in 30 seconds of respawning and 2-5 minutes of deployment, you logically get more careful and stay in cover when fired at. Again the reaction, involuntary or not, depends on the player.

Which means that the best move by BI would simply to make the thing configurable server side

[stilpu 0]

Quote[/b] ]In OFP and Arma pvp, there was very little incentive to loose off suppressive fire in someone's general direction - all you did was make yourself a more obvious target without affecting the person you were shooting at in the slightest.

As a matter of fact, the oh-so-awesome SLX mod for ArmA has already added sight swaying when you're getting shot at. This is especially visible when you're using optics, of course.

[ck-claw 1]

+1 As Whisper said!

Make it optionable

[zinc 0]

I'm not sure about this sort of cheesy effect being added to the game, I think I'll put off buying Arma2 until I've seen some user created in-game video of this.

I don't like this type of 'feature' (and I use that term loosely) forced upon the player, I can see it becoming tedious and extremely annoying very quickly, especially in large battles with lots of action and bullets whizzing around.

If you want to 'shake my hands' or 'blur my vision' do it when I've been caught in a shell/bomb/grenade blast, or when I'm injured.

I don't consider this a realistic detail at all. I'm sure a few of you know what real 'shock' is when it kicks in, tunnel vision in black and white and low muffled inaudible sounds except for a constant monotone ringing in your ears, and then everything fading back to normal after ten seconds. I'd much rather see real effects like that implemented than these (what I consider to be) 'corner cutting' ones.

[Benoist 0]

Don't you played FFN Mod?

When you were suppressed it FORCED you to lay down, you standed up and it throw it back to the floor. You couldn't ran away, flank, etc. It was extremely annoying.

[4 IN 1 0]

by forcing players to "shake their hands" of "blur their vision"

why dont try to jump player off for real instead?

i will get quite scary if the bullet land on a building corner infront of my face, with all those sound and dust so close to my head

[celery 8]

Don't you played FFN Mod?

When you were suppressed it FORCED you to lay down, you standed up and it throw it back to the floor. You couldn't ran away, flank, etc. It was extremely annoying.

Exactly. There are clearly two schools of thought - one that wants to react to different things at their discretion and another that wants the game simulate those reactions for them. In the former case you're controlling yourself, in the latter you control another person like a vehicle with its own characteristics.

[Second 0]

Don't you played FFN Mod?

When you were suppressed it FORCED you to lay down, you standed up and it throw it back to the floor. You couldn't ran away, flank, etc. It was extremely annoying.

I think this goes too far for most players, me myself included.

SLX also forces player to go down, but not many times and it's more like hint to player that bullet went just past your head (which i probably wouldn't notice otherwise). Heck i think it has saved my life few times in game, as i understand that "damn they actually aim at ME and that it went close by!"

That i can understand as somekind strong survival instinct. As long as it doesnt' take control over player too much. Hitting dirt once while standing is okay, even good. Same on run for better cover is not. There's so much which my headphones doesn't seem to be capable to tell me, near misses mostly.

[sparks50 0]

Were not talking about the FFN jump-around suppression here. Try the Insurgency mod for HL or Reality mod for BF2, to get a taste of how the effects can work.

[max power 21]

I should say that just because bullets are coming close doesn't mean you are in any danger of being hit. Say you are around a corner, and someone is up the street shooting in your general direction. Now, if those bullets are coming close, then you'll be suppressed- but since you are around a corner, you are in no danger. Now say another bad guy walks out from around another corner across the street. Will you have to back up in order to engage him? If so, how far?

[twisted 127]

Don't you played FFN Mod?

When you were suppressed it FORCED you to lay down, you standed up and it throw it back to the floor. You couldn't ran away, flank, etc. It was extremely annoying.

I think this goes too far for most players, me myself included.

SLX also forces player to go down, but not many times and it's more like hint to player that bullet went just past your head (which i probably wouldn't notice otherwise). Heck i think it has saved my life few times in game, as i understand that "damn they actually aim at ME and that it went close by!"

That i can understand as somekind strong survival instinct. As long as it doesnt' take control over player too much. Hitting dirt once while standing is okay, even good. Same on run for better cover is not. There's so much which my headphones doesn't seem to be capable to tell me, near misses mostly.

i encourage people to try insurgency mod if they can. with the blurring you can still fire but with the bluring effect you are just not in 100% control as if strolling a beach with peace and love all around.

however i don't like the idea of being forced prone like in FNN or even it having a big effect on accuracy.

i feel that without 'some' effects you are looking at making the ai react to being suppressed and not you the player - that's a step back and imo. it also seems a bit like rambo-ish bravery. at the same time too heavy a kind of effect would be counter productive. naturally, balance is called for for gameplay vs realism.

under direct fire means bullets near you affects you in some way.

[Michael_Wittman 0]

Instead of that force you prone...they should only work a bit more on sound effects as in real world when a bullet crosses above you head close it has a VERY DISTINCTIVE sound. That should be enough to give the player the hint to prone or evasive sprint but it should allways be the player who makes the decision...not the game that makes the decision for you. Other case can be that you got hit by the shockwave of a nearby explosion that doesnt injure you with shrapnel but instead knocks you down for a while...making you fall like a puppet (again...PhysX very usefull for this purpose)...then you slowly recover consciousness...

Another thing that someone mentioned is that we miss the taunting/yelling/crying in the heat of the battle...I think thats something that could help the inmersion 100%. There is a video of some marines chasing insurgents in Iraq that displays it pretty well. SHOOT HIMMM!!!!!!!!!

[Second 0]

Were not talking about the FFN jump-around suppression here. Try the Insurgency mod for HL or Reality mod for BF2, to get a taste of how the effects can work.

Well i'm not either (when it comes to ArmA2). As it says: Blur and weapon shaking. Quite selfexplaining really.

Under which conditions Insurgency's hippie fun-land effect kicks in? When being under fire or when getting wounded? Sounds stupid if, when body is preparing for ultimate battle for it's life, it causes individual to go hiiiigh

[sparks50 0]

Insurgency suppression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOzyuOEyWY&fmt=18